630 réponses à ce sujet

[leadintea]

It's not about the fanbase being ready. Look at what we're seeing right now in this thread at the very concept of someone like Krem existing. The level of transphobia that we'll see with a male to female LI will be almost inconceivably vitriolic. That's not to say that Bioware shouldn't do it. But we need to be realistic about what will happen if they do it. 

 

Yup. I'm all for a trans romance, but the only way I can see it happening is if it's a transmale character or if it's a transfemale (like Mae) with extra romances for male players. I mean, can you imagine what the majority of straight male players would say if such a thing happened? "Oh, in DAI, straight females got 4 options for romance and all of them were real males, but we get a man along with our standard 2 choices! Bioware's pushing their liberal agenda on us with all this ****** content!" and so forth and so on.

[In Exile]

Thanks for saying all that. I considered it, but you worded it better than I would have.

 

There's a further point. The other issue with this logical black hole is the implicit assumption that "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman" is meant as an exhaustive definition, which is to say that it is the only definition. But of course that's silly, because words don't have exhaustive definitions that apprehend only one term. The rhetorical flourish here is to say the definition is recursive (though it isn't) because it's ostensibly self-referential and (by unstated assumption) exhaustive. But, of course, the definition isn't self-referential because it's using what amounts to a different operator (identifies vs. is) and it isn't meant to be exhaustive (with "woman" further capturing all the varying idea of social role bound up in it).

 

What the "a woman is a person who identifies" as a woman is meant to do is add to a purely biological definition. Note that it doesn't even actually replace it, because since we've managed to identify the brain mechanisms that ostensibly make one identify with the gender of woman, we'd just swap the current definition (relating to gametes and sex characteristics) to the neurological definition (relating to brain biology and brain chemistry).

 

This is nothing more than faux intellectualism trying to cover up for a more fundamental objection to the idea that gender is anything other than a random assignment at birth of genitalia. 

[DuskWanderer]

Oh. A debate about how we should give words their original Latin meaning with a complete and utter ignorance of any social context or historical development over the past few centuries. Great. Are you going to take the same moral stance on the world "vulgar"? How dare I use it to refer to anything other than "commoner"! I'm tired of people always using the word to denote a lack of sophistication or good taste. What about villain? The terror of using it to mean evil person (esp. in a story or narrative) rather than its true meaning of farmer (or farmhand). 

 

Here's what the word "transphobia" means today. By definition. It means:

 

trans·pho·bi·a

ˌtranzˈfōbēə/

noun

 

1. intense dislike of or prejudice against transsexual or transgender people.

 

It's used properly, and there's certainly no attempt to "silence" dissent. Just like calling someone a racist piece of ****. I'm not trying to silence the racist. I'm just expressing my incredible distain for them. 

No, you're not using it properly. The sheer fact that you used it in this context proves it. We think the entire concept is stupid, time is wasted, we're required to be supportive, and it's handled badly. That you'll blanket it as 'you just don't like trans" proves you can't think objectively about the topic. Either come into a discussion with an open mind, or just remain quiet. 

[BabyPuncher]

Are you going to take the same moral stance on the world "vulgar"? How dare I use it to refer to anything other than "commoner"! I'm tired of people always using the word to denote a lack of sophistication or good taste. What about villain? The terror of using it to mean evil person (esp. in a story or narrative) rather than its true meaning of farmer (or farmhand). 

Somebody reads SMBC.

[DuskWanderer]

You think reading options on the dialogue wheel amounts to being "forced" to sit through a morality tale about tolerance? That's the line in the sand you're drawing? This is an absurd position. No reasonable person would use that definition of the word "forced", so there's no possible reply or discussion we might have on this point. Continue to feel forced, by all means. But it's unreasonable. 

You said I had the option to "ignore" it. I'm pointing out your lie that I can't. That's all. 

[In Exile]

Again, the first two, you only learn that Krem is in the Chargers, that Krem is from Tevinter, and Krem likes to drink. The other conversations in the wheel are about the other Chargers (it's a little weird since you haven't met the rest of the Chargers yet). I actually am okay with Krem. What I don't like is the fact that Weekes seems to admit Krem is a boring character and only threw the trans in an attempt to make him interesting (he's not). It's an excuse for bad writing.

 

Ugh, we're back to this nonsense. Throwing in some randomn trait to flesh out a character isn't bad writing when you're dealing with a one note morality pet. 

[In Exile]

No, you're not using it properly. The sheer fact that you used it in this context proves it. We think the entire concept is stupid, time is wasted, we're required to be supportive, and it's handled badly. That you'll blanket it as 'you just don't like trans" proves you can't think objectively about the topic. Either come into a discussion with an open mind, or just remain quiet. 

 

I don't know what you're on about, but I used it in the context of saying that having a MTF transsexual LI would lead to a lot of posts by people saying they were "tricked", and otherwise leading to a series of vitriolic posts (which you can find infecting the internet), and I characterized this response as "transphobic". I can't possible wrap my head around how you think what I said in any way applies to you, this thread, or Krem. 

[daveliam]

Alright folks, I'm bowing out of this conversation.  If people are going to actually use the mere presence of optional dialogue options as evidence that trans issues are getting 'forced' on them, I don't think there's much more I can say in this conversation.......

[In Exile]

You said I had the option to "ignore" it. I'm pointing out your lie that I can't. That's all. 

 

I see I have to define another word for you:

 

ig·nore

iɡˈnôr/

verb

verb: ignore; 3rd person present: ignores; past tense: ignored; past participle: ignored; gerund or present participle: ignoring

1. refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.

   "he ignored her outraged question"

   synonyms: disregard, take no notice of, pay no attention to, pay no heed to; More

    

   antonyms: pay attention to, acknowledge, obey

   • fail to consider (something significant).

     "direct satellite broadcasting ignores national boundaries"

And for completeness:

 

dis·re·gard

ˌdisrəˈɡärd/

verb

verb: disregard; 3rd person present: disregards; past tense: disregarded; past participle: disregarded; gerund or present participle: disregarding

1. 1.

   pay no attention to; ignore.

   "the body of evidence is too substantial to disregard"

   synonyms: ignore, take no notice of, pay no attention/heed to; More

   antonyms: heed

noun

noun: disregard; plural noun: disregards

1. 1.

   the action or state of disregarding or ignoring something.

   "blatant disregard for the law"

   synonyms: indifference, nonobservance, inattention, heedlessness, neglect

   "blithe disregard for the rules"

   antonyms: attention

 

Ignore doesn't mean what you think it means. It requires something coming to your notice (i.e., attending to it) and then consciously choosing to "disregard" it. The scene occurs, and then you have the option to disregard it by clicking an option on the dialogue wheel. 

[DuskWanderer]

Ugh, we're back to this nonsense. Throwing in some randomn trait to flesh out a character isn't bad writing when you're dealing with a one note morality pet. 

Take it from a published writer: Throwing in random details like that is distracting to the audience. If the morality pet part was important, than the random trait should have been about that. 

[In Exile]

Listen, I've sat through six months of vitriol just for a minor character like Krem, do you ever see this changing. Am I supposed to just sit back and wait for change or should I fight for it. I choose to fight for everything I can get and I really don't care anymore about all the crying and whining about a trans character. Why am I any different than any other minority?

 

I'm not saying that you're different, or that you should sit back to wait. I'm just saying that - as an outsider - it seems to me that Bioware has multiple considerations. I appreciate the view that it's paternalistic to say they shouldn't do something if there's a great deal of vitriol, but the fact that there will be vitriol is a legitimate reason for them to question whether it's a stand they want the company to take. 

[In Exile]

Take it from a published writer: Throwing in random details like that is distracting to the audience. If the morality pet part was important, than the random trait should have been about that. 

 

The random trait is about what makes Krem a morality pet, and it ties in exactly with the IB's story (standing up for Krem is how the IB lost his eye). The Chargers are all social outcasts, excluded from their own society for a trait that's fundamental to who they are that they cannot in any way change (e.g. Dalish is a mage, but the odd one out, Skinner is an exile for retaliating against a racist...). 

[BabyPuncher]

What the "a woman is a person who identifies" as a woman is meant to do is add to a purely biological definition. Note that it doesn't even actually replace it, because since we've managed to identify the brain mechanisms that ostensibly make one identify with the gender of woman, we'd just swap the current definition (relating to gametes and sex characteristics) to the neurological definition (relating to brain biology and brain chemistry).

What ridiculous drivel. Literally the only thing that does is claim this is legitimate because something in the brain causes it to happen. Literally every human action and thought is the result of something happened in the brain. I can say two and two are five. There's brain chemistry and brain biology behind that. It contributes exactly nothing to make two and two equaling five any less stupid. Does two and two equaling five become a 'biological definition' now because there's biology in my brain that causes me to say it?

[In Exile]

Anyway I'm also backing out of the thread. Clearly this conversation is going nowhere, and I'm not going to succeed in convincing anyone of anything. So... toddles?

[DuskWanderer]

I see I have to define another word for you:

 

ig·nore

iɡˈnôr/

verb

verb: ignore; 3rd person present: ignores; past tense: ignored; past participle: ignored; gerund or present participle: ignoring

1. refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.

   "he ignored her outraged question"

   synonyms: disregard, take no notice of, pay no attention to, pay no heed to; More

    

   antonyms: pay attention to, acknowledge, obey

   • fail to consider (something significant).

     "direct satellite broadcasting ignores national boundaries"

And for completeness:

 

dis·re·gard

ˌdisrəˈɡärd/

verb

verb: disregard; 3rd person present: disregards; past tense: disregarded; past participle: disregarded; gerund or present participle: disregarding

1. 1.

   pay no attention to; ignore.

   "the body of evidence is too substantial to disregard"

   synonyms: ignore, take no notice of, pay no attention/heed to; More

   antonyms: heed

noun

noun: disregard; plural noun: disregards

1. 1.

   the action or state of disregarding or ignoring something.

   "blatant disregard for the law"

   synonyms: indifference, nonobservance, inattention, heedlessness, neglect

   "blithe disregard for the rules"

   antonyms: attention

 

I cannot cure your ignorance of the English language, but ignore doesn't mean what you think it means. It requires something coming to your notice (i.e., attending to it) and then consciously choosing to "disregard" it. The scene occurs, and then you have the option to disregard it by clicking an option on the dialogue wheel. 

If that is how you feel. I cannot help you. Bull asked to get some drinks and meet the Chargers, and I have to read that Krem is trans. The scene would have worked so much better if Krem had told an interesting story about how getting drinks once let to Sketch-like death squads. 

[DuskWanderer]

The random trait is about what makes Krem a morality pet, and it ties in exactly with the IB's story (standing up for Krem is how the IB lost his eye). The Chargers are all social outcasts, excluded from their own society for a trait that's fundamental to who they are that they cannot in any way change (e.g. Dalish is a mage, but the odd one out, Skinner is an exile for retaliating against a racist...). 

IB lost his eye because he was helping Krem. The trans part was literally tacked on and irrelevant to the story at large: Krem could have been attacked by crazy Dalish and the story wouldn't have changed. 

[Dai Grepher]

So for all your choices Talk...you want the choice to be a bigot . encouraging the Transgender Behavior/action 

 

How do you actually encourage krem? You don't . You ask him questions and that is it . 

 

Stop making a big deal out of it and grow up . 

 

That first sentence made no sense. Please try again.

 

No, I want the choice to disagree with the idea that a transgender person is the gender they claim to be.

 

Didn't write anything about Krem there. Please read the conversation you were trying to reply to.

[AresKeith]

Take it from a published writer: Throwing in random details like that is distracting to the audience. If the morality pet part was important, than the random trait should have been about that. 

 

[raging_monkey]

Well this is at critical mass

[Steelcan]

guys

[Steelcan]

guys

[Steelcan]

HEROISM

[Dai Grepher]

Sure, but the whole reason this thread's gone on for so many pages is because you're bothered by.... the possibility that in some future games a Bio protagonist might be too accepting of transgender people? Have I got that right?

 

No, you got that wrong. I have stated numerous times that accepting dialogue options for transgenders SHOULD exist in future games, but in that case dialogue options that disagree with transgenderism should ALSO exist to provide players with choice.