630 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

But how is this expressed through the game avatar without becoming a weird sort of validation of that viewpoint? The real problem, as Banshee points out, is that this isn't really something that other characters in any of the games have ever criticized. No one makes a fuss about same sex relationships and such, and no one gives Krem a hard time in the tavern. The Inquisitor getting up in arms about it would stand out like a sore thumb. 

 

 

 

But then I could ask: would the people who avoid these games because of this outnumber the people who get drawn in because of it? 

 

*Cough*Sten*Cough*

 

Also, even Inquisition states the perspectives of some nations on the issue of sexuality. Ferelden finds homosexuality strange, but doesn't prosecute it unless it's blatantly done in public. I think it even said it's punished in Tevinter among the noble class, but encouraged among slaves (implying this is for the amusement of the slave masters).

 

No more a validation than having your human noble threaten to cut his old nanny's tongue out of her head for chastising him. Or how threatening to punch Zevran in the face for coming on to you doesn't validate homophobia. Or how sacrificing a room full of elves to blood magic so you can get 1 ability point doesn't validate mass murder, or racism, or genocide, or... eugenics?

 

To answer your question... yes, even in the U.S. alone.

[FurryFury]

I'd also like to add that forcing the agenda down the players' throats is simply a bad strategy if you want to educate the masses. And yes, there are lots of players to educate out there. If you let them question something, it will give them an illusion of choice, of letting them express their opinion. The best way would be to let the player react to Krem (for example) however they want to and then show them how cool he is, let him explain his feelings and experiences. A lot of bigotry comes from not knowing or understanding the issue. Like Kulyok, I live in Russia, and here, many, many people simply don't realize that being gay or trans is normal and actually pretty wide-spread because many such persons are afraid of admitting it, and what people don't understand, they hate and fear. Just show them all these characters as normal - but let the player form their own opinion. It's the key to understanding.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Why should it be that way? Why can't BioWare accommodate those concerns by making such elements optional, in other words, easily avoidable?

 

Because no matter how optional and minimal those elements are, some people will still whine.

 

Krem has maybe five minutes of dialogue about his gender. Dorian has one quest to go see his estranged father in which his sexuality is a major plot point which lasts maybe ten minutes. That's fifteen minutes of content in a game that can easily last a hundred hours or more. And yet, people still complain. Why bother trying to please them?

 

I think you're only saying that because you agree with the message. When Dragon Age only had "Female" elf and Serendipity, a few loud "fans" complained, and BioWare accommodated them. So why are they more worthy of accommodation than a much larger percentage of fans?

 

Ultimately, players can complain about whatever they want. Some of it I agree with (bring back the Tactics system!) and some of it I don't (really could not care less about hairstyles.) Whether BioWare listens or not is up to them. I don't think BioWare should put stuff in the game or take it out just because fans say so - that would lead to a very weird game if they tried to listen to everyone. That doesn't mean fans never make a reasonable argument for what they want, and I think the people who complained about Serendipity had a good point. Apparently the writers agreed with me.

 

I think you can appeal to them simultaneously, in the way I suggested. Give players the CHOICE to be supportive of liberal causes, or "bigots" as some call them. At the very least the social justice warriors will feel good about themselves for choosing the path of acceptance, and EA will get some good psychiatric data for their player files from the data mining software embedded in the game. But that's a conspiracy theory for another topic.

 

Frankly, I don't think accommodating players who want to roleplay characters who are jerks about this particular issue is worth the genuine pain it would cause some trans players to see those dialogue options pop up.

 

The game is full of an infinite number of things your Inquisitor cannot do. You cannot refuse to become the Inquisitor. You cannot side with Corypheus. You cannot murderknife random people. You cannot abandon the story and run away to Antiva. The same is true of all previous BioWare games. There's only so much energy they're willing to expend on letting your character be an arsehole. I think that if they want to give us more jerk choices, they'd be much better off letting us murderknife more people or hate on entirely fictional groups like elves and mages than giving us the option to be rude to Krem for no reason. One of DAI's weaknesses is a real lack of 'Renegade' options, but I really don't think that conversation needed one.

[FurryFury]

Frankly, I don't think accommodating players who want to roleplay characters who are jerks about this particular issue is worth the genuine pain it would cause some trans players to see those dialogue options pop up.

 

I am female and the Female Elf origin in DAO with the rape of Shianni and the attempted rape of my character did cause me genuine pain. And for gay players, the actions of Dorian's father in the backstory probably also did something like that. I don't understand why trans players are somehow different in this regard. It's not like anybody forces them to choose these dialogue options.

[AtreiyaN7]

They wouldn't avoid the games - Bioware games are just too good and too rare a thing. They'll just be offended and less inclined to _pay_ for the game. For example, every second DA blog review(including comments) in Russia mentions "too much homosexuality, wish it wasn't there", including several of the best and most prominent Russian sci-fi writers. And Russia is a huge, huge, huge market, so, yeah, spitting on those customers might bite the company in the long run. Funny thing is, there's no problem with Krem, because that's viewed more like the tradition of girls wearing male clothing from the Shakespearian times or Soviet movies like Treasure Island and Truffaldino. But anyway, I'd say that about or over a half of Russian audience would be offended by "go find another game", yeah.

 

Why on earth should BW have to cater to a country that is currently recognized as being homophobic to the point that individuals are beaten or murdered for NOT being heterosexual? I was watching the news a few weeks ago (don't remember the exact date, but this was fairly recent) and saw people protesting the poor treatment (an understatement) of homosexuals in Moscow. The peaceful protesters were pretty quickly attacked, and I saw individuals being beaten by homophobic nationalists.

 

I think BW is just making the point that they won't cater to bigots of any stripe and that people who are bothered by their progressive attitudes and characters would probably be better off finding a game that's more palatable to them. Besides, there are already so many other games to play in which all the homophobes of the world won't ever have to deal with the reality that gay people exist.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I am female and the Female Elf origin in DAO with the rape of Shianni and the attempted rape of my character did cause me genuine pain. And for gay players, the actions of Dorian's father in the backstory probably also did something like that. I don't understand why trans players are somehow different in this regard. It's not like anybody forces them to choose these dialogue options.

 

I don't think they are. I don't think BioWare should avoid hurting and upsetting players altogether - it's kind of their signature move.  If they wanted to do a story about a trans character that worked the same way as Dorian's story, I'd support that. (Well, obviously it shouldn't be exactly the same or that would be repetitive, but I'd be fine with a story where a character is rejected because they're trans and is upset about it.)

 

However, putting in the ability to be randomly rude to a trans character just because their trans doesn't serve any function in the story. It just lets people be jerks for the sake of being jerks.

[Darkstarr11]

Hawke survived?  Sweet!  It wouldn't shock me though...but I DOUBT that the Champion is coming out in one piece.  It seems like they REALLY want to kick Hawke a few more times before they finally end the story.  Maybe they'll become the next games mentor for the PC...because we ALL know how THAT role ends in Bioware games...

[Korva]

Funny how it's always "political" or an "agenda" if the existence of those of us who exist outside of the heteronormative gender-binary is acknowledged in any way -- but our total erasure or, if anything, demonization and degradation, somehow isn't. What a load of curdled, hypocritical crap.

 

On another note:

 

On Cole making the Inquisitor "forget" himself

 

What does that mean? I'm grateful for the transcript, but this Twitter-style conversation still seems supremely disjointed to me and I can't figure out the context for this. When does Cole make us forget anything (unless we refuse to let him join or annoy him into leaving)?

[lynroy]

Funny how it's always "political" or an "agenda" if the existence of those of us who exist outside of the heteronormative gender-binary is acknowledged in any way -- but our total erasure or, if anything, demonization and degradation, somehow isn't. What a load of curdled, hypocritical crap.

On another note:


What does that mean? I'm grateful for the transcript, but this Twitter-style conversation still seems supremely disjointed to me and I can't figure out the context for this. When does Cole make us forget anything (unless we refuse to let him join or annoy him into leaving)?

When you tank his disapproval and he leaves. When he does, he makes the inquisitor forget him.

[Korva]

When you tank his disapproval and he leaves. When he does, he makes the inquisitor forget him.

 

I know, but this line in the interview doesn't mention that context. It just feels totally random there, which had me baffled and a bit worried.

[Panda]

All that stuff are pretty intresting from Weekes implying they will do more transgender characters to mental image of him and Gaider roleplaying Adoribull romance.. but this caught me most: Here Lies the Abyss originally was suppose to be where you met, The Architect from DAI DLC.

 

We were supposed to meet Architect here and that almost became true?! Does this mean that he would have been one of Corypheuses chest pieces and would have been behind screwing with wardens? Or would he be ally in this quest, to go against Corypheus? Maybe this could have even depend on whatever Warden sided or not with him in Awakening, if he did then he would ally himself with Inquisitor and if not then he would be one of antagonists.

 

He's one of my fav characters so I'm quite sad that we almost got him in DAI, but sadly BW decided not to. Though this would mean that he could be reserved for some bigger purpose in next game.. just having my hopes up for no reason here ^^;

[JadeDragon]

Hopefully the architect will show up in a story dlc since there was plans to use him but with other variable characters i can see why they backed off even though i would love to see the relationship of architect and cory trying to outplay each other either as allies or foes would have really helped both character developments

[lynroy]

I know, but this line in the interview doesn't mention that context. It just feels totally random there, which had me baffled and a bit worried.

It is the only thing is could be referring to as far as I am concerned. Patrick probably gives some incite on that scene.

[L. Han]

I didn't feel like anyone was really struggling in the game. It's one thing to just say it and another to actually see it happen or see the aftermath. I hate to bring up the Witcher 3 again, but there's a gay hunter in there who doesn't bring it up unless you coax it out of him. I thought his struggle sounded a lot more realistic and I feel sorry for the poor bloke.

[Sah291]

Ok, Patrick Weekes is pretty awesome, but wait... Architect in DAI? Does that mean it was planned, but scrapped, or that it is still planned for a future game or dlc? I would have loved that. The Architect is probably my favorite DA villain. I wonder if he would have been there to help or antagonize the Inquisitor? I have a feeling he'd be the type of character, unlike Cory, to have a totally different reaction to finding out the black city was empty, and would probably view his loss of faith as an enlightenment...

By Hawke possibly still being alive, did he mean if you left him in fade? Or is he just referring to the fact that the player can choose to spare him and send him off with the Wardens? I saved Hawke, but if they do something interesting with the character left behind the fade, I may change my mind.

Regarding negative reactions in the dialogue to characters like Krem, etc. I'm not one for hateful attitudes either. But it's an RPG, and sometimes the ability to be rude or insensitive makes a good character arc. For example, I remember how Shepard in ME could start off being kind of an ignorant jerk about aliens. By the end of the series, aliens could be some of Shepard's best friends, or potential LI. In DA2, Hawke has some pretty insensitive lines too, regarding elves, mages, etc. Especially sarcastic Hawke, who was totally politically incorrect...but by the same token, totally unafraid to confront crazy templars, blood mages, and hypocrites like Meredith. So sometimes it's interesting to play from the perspective of a character that is an anti hero or who has flaws. I hope they don't totally remove all negativity in general from the PC's characterization and dialogue. Perhaps they could just make it more realistic. Like if the PC is rude or cruel, it comes back to bite them later, instead of just having companions who follow you no matter what.

[Absafraginlootly]

All that stuff are pretty intresting from Weekes implying they will do more transgender characters to mental image of him and Gaider roleplaying Adoribull romance.. but this caught me most: Here Lies the Abyss originally was suppose to be where you met, The Architect from DAI DLC.

 

We were supposed to meet Architect here and that almost became true?! Does this mean that he would have been one of Corypheuses chest pieces and would have been behind screwing with wardens? Or would he be ally in this quest, to go against Corypheus? Maybe this could have even depend on whatever Warden sided or not with him in Awakening, if he did then he would ally himself with Inquisitor and if not then he would be one of antagonists.

 

He's one of my fav characters so I'm quite sad that we almost got him in DAI, but sadly BW decided not to. Though this would mean that he could be reserved for some bigger purpose in next game.. just having my hopes up for no reason here ^^;

Definitely the most interesting part of the interview to me - I wonder what part he would have played exactly.

 

I am female and the Female Elf origin in DAO with the rape of Shianni and the attempted rape of my character did cause me genuine pain. And for gay players, the actions of Dorian's father in the backstory probably also did something like that. I don't understand why trans players are somehow different in this regard. It's not like anybody forces them to choose these dialogue options.

In the city elf origin a villain rapes Shianni, the player is not given the option to approves of rape. In Dorian's quest his fathers awful behaviour is portrayed as awful behaviour, and unless I'm having a severe memory fail, you are not given the option to support trying to change someones orientation. Having horrible things happen in the story and getting to do or say these horrible things yourself aren't really the same thing. 

[TK514]

I don't support discrimination in RL, but the sanitization of various subjects such as Krem in BioWare games can come across as more than a little odd, even patronizing, especially in light of how many other horrible things they allow our characters to say and do.

In the Da series we can insult and degrade some of our companions to the point that they abandon the cause in tears or turn on us in violent confrontation, we can express bigotry against non-humans (including murdering them for personal gain), intolerance against other cultures, endorse slavery (with a side order of implied mental and physical rape), promote disgust and degradation for the magically inclined, cheerfully participate in murder for hire and countless other awful things across Thedas, but the worst our monsters can do to this otherwise meaningless minor character is ask some fumblingly inept questions?

Just seems to be a bit of an odd double standard to allow us to roleplay absolutely horrible people in every way...except this one.

[Absafraginlootly]

I don't support discrimination in RL, but the sanitization of various subjects such as Krem in BioWare games can come across as more than a little odd, even patronizing, especially in light of how many other horrible things they allow our characters to say and do.

In the Da series we can insult and degrade some of our companions to the point that they abandon the cause in tears or turn on us in violent confrontation, we can express bigotry against non-humans (including murdering them for personal gain), intolerance against other cultures, endorse slavery (with a side order of implied mental and physical rape), promote disgust and degradation for the magically inclined, cheerfully participate in murder for hire and countless other awful things across Thedas, but the worst our monsters can do to this otherwise meaningless minor character is ask some fumblingly inept questions?

Just seems to be a bit of an odd double standard to allow us to roleplay absolutely horrible people in every way...except this one.

I suppose it doesn't seem so odd to me because they're consistent about what sort of awful they let the character be.

 

The pc can express hatred towards things that only exist in game like elves, mages, the chantry etc. But they cannot express it towards gender/women, skin colour or sexual orientation, therefore not being able to do it to transgender individuals seems entirely consistent with what they've been doing. Other characters in the game can (eg. The Tevinter army not allowing woman or trans people in their ranks), but not the player.

 

Basically they let your character be prejudiced to in-universe things, which though might draw from real life things for story purposes, aren't hurtful in the way that using the n word, refusing to acknowledge someones gender, or using homophobic or sexist dialogue would be.

[TK514]

I suppose it doesn't seem so odd to me because they're consistent about what sort of awful they let the character be.
 
The pc can express hatred towards things that only exist in game like elves, mages, the chantry etc. But they cannot express it towards gender/women, skin colour or sexual orientation, therefore not being able to do it to transgender individuals seems entirely consistent with what they've been doing. Other characters in the game can (eg. The Tevinter army not allowing woman or trans people in their ranks), but not the player.
 
Basically they let your character be prejudiced to in-universe things, which though might draw from real life things for story purposes, aren't hurtful in the way that using the n word, refusing to acknowledge someones gender, or using homophobic or sexist dialogue would be.

The difference is that they generally portray things like sexual orientation or skin color as not noteworthy. Being gay in Thedas is about as worthy of discussion as liking blue and hating orange. There's nothing to talk about. Even Dorian's relationship with his father is less about his preferrence than it is about percieved familial duty. Had he put aside his personal feelings and made some Mage babies, it never would have come up as more than a personality quirk.

When it comes to Krem, however, rather than going that more than reasonable route, the writers make sure you know that this is some weird, unusual, noteworthy, generally not understood thing. They even give us limited options on how to react to it. Unfortunately, those options seem to be 'broadly accepting' and 'mentally challenged (but otherwise accepting)'. i think that was a mistake, on a couple of levels. Because if you tell me that this is something that intolerant asshats have a problem with, then you give me the chance to think "hey, my character is an intolerant asshat...why can't I express that in this instance?" It's jarring, and comes across as forced and more than a little preachy.

[Sah291]

I suppose it doesn't seem so odd to me because they're consistent about what sort of awful they let the character be.

The pc can express hatred towards things that only exist in game like elves, mages, the chantry etc. But they cannot express it towards gender/women, skin colour or sexual orientation, therefore not being able to do it to transgender individuals seems entirely consistent with what they've been doing. Other characters in the game can (eg. The Tevinter army not allowing woman or trans people in their ranks), but not the player.

Basically they let your character be prejudiced to in-universe things, which though might draw from real life things for story purposes, aren't hurtful in the way that using the n word, refusing to acknowledge someones gender, or using homophobic or sexist dialogue would be.

Somewhat but not always. There are examples of what might be considered, uh, chauvinistic attitudes towards women...and also violence against women, up to and including rape, torture, murder. Personally, I don't think it's a bad thing to depict such things. The difference is... is the game trying to glorify such behavior, or trying to get people to think critically? And I'll stick this behind a spoiler tag just so I don't veer too far off topic, but...

Spoiler

It's like David Gaider once said about the mage/templar thing in DA2, how most of us in this day and age, in a modern western society, might have had an automatic knee jerk reaction to side with the mages...because oppressed class. But, I think, knowing that oppression is wrong is one thing, understanding the principles behind why is another. In real life, such things don't always appear cut and dry. People will often have some justification and reason why "x" is a threat that often appears very reasonable to many. That's what I loved about DA2. Almost every mage you meet is nuts...really makes you stop and think, ok ~why~ should I side with these people. You lose some of that aspect in your story telling if you try too hard to always be as inoffensive as possible, IMO.

[CronoDragoon]

So, Aaryn Flynn hints at a Deep Roads DLC, and now we hear the Architect was originally a part of DAI vanilla. Excitement rising!

 

 

And telling players who object to play something else? Not really the point of making video games. I wonder what EA would say to that.

 

EA is probably very happy about it. BioWare's progressive stance on these matters generates a lot of good PR and generates high attachment rates from female and LGBT populations, which is an under-utilized market. It's a big deal to those people, and a small deal (or a plus) to everyone else. Well, almost everyone. Those who wouldn't buy a game because it doesn't let you RP a bigot? Very small population that BioWare can indeed tell to go play something else.

[Dieb]

I knew Hawke didn't suddenly stop kicking demon arse for breakfast.

 

The only thing I'm uncomfortable about is "buy another game" - you start hating and pitying the dissenters instead of standing above it all, you're worse than them.

 

He didn't say (well, the paraphrased twitter quote, let's not forget that) he hates those people, and he's free to hate their opinions.

 

While I frankly don't see the harm in letting someone roleplay their character as a bigot idiot -not more than extreme depictions of violence etc which should also have no place in an ideal real world- I have absolutely no problems with a developers finally saying something straight, without non-committal apologetic marketing bla bla for a change in this industry.

[Dai Grepher]

Because no matter how optional and minimal those elements are, some people will still whine.

 

Krem has maybe five minutes of dialogue about his gender. Dorian has one quest to go see his estranged father in which his sexuality is a major plot point which lasts maybe ten minutes. That's fifteen minutes of content in a game that can easily last a hundred hours or more. And yet, people still complain. Why bother trying to please them?

 

 

Ultimately, players can complain about whatever they want. Some of it I agree with (bring back the Tactics system!) and some of it I don't (really could not care less about hairstyles.) Whether BioWare listens or not is up to them. I don't think BioWare should put stuff in the game or take it out just because fans say so - that would lead to a very weird game if they tried to listen to everyone. That doesn't mean fans never make a reasonable argument for what they want, and I think the people who complained about Serendipity had a good point. Apparently the writers agreed with me.

 

 

Frankly, I don't think accommodating players who want to roleplay characters who are jerks about this particular issue is worth the genuine pain it would cause some trans players to see those dialogue options pop up.

 

The game is full of an infinite number of things your Inquisitor cannot do. You cannot refuse to become the Inquisitor. You cannot side with Corypheus. You cannot murderknife random people. You cannot abandon the story and run away to Antiva. The same is true of all previous BioWare games. There's only so much energy they're willing to expend on letting your character be an arsehole. I think that if they want to give us more jerk choices, they'd be much better off letting us murderknife more people or hate on entirely fictional groups like elves and mages than giving us the option to be rude to Krem for no reason. One of DAI's weaknesses is a real lack of 'Renegade' options, but I really don't think that conversation needed one.

 

Yeah but that's more an argument to not have it in the game at all. I'm saying have it in the game, but let it be something the player can easily avoid when spotted or can respond to in the way they want to. And if those players still whine, then their grievances will be unjustified, because as you wrote, those plot elements were just a tiny, optional part of the game. Those players have no reason to complain. Thus these people are easily dismissed. But if it's forced on them, well then their complaints have merit.

 

They should bother trying to please them to get their money. Can't BioWare then turn around and donate the money to causes they believe in? Or at least set the game up in a way that those players might think about the message they're trying to get across? See, having the issue forced actually does a disservice to the trans character. If the player does not have the option to avoid it or respond as desired, then certain players will just end up hating the character and maybe the entire game. Nothing is accomplished. On the other hand, if the player is shown that hey, there's this trans character over here. Explore that character if you want to, and if not, no big deal, then the player sees that he or she has freedom to choose. Even players who choose to avoid the trans character will walk away not hating the game. Or, at least not hating the game because of the trans character.

 

Okay, so we agree. Fans can complain and BioWare can accommodate or not.

 

Well then, with all due respect, you might be missing the point of role playing games. As for pain. Um, I have a hard time believing that people feel pain from having dialog options they don't like. There are options to murder, which I don't like, but I want the options there anyway. I don't feel pain from it. Options to berate people of faith in the game likewise cause no pain to people of faith in the real world. Personally I think the people who claim injury from words are those who simply hate being disagreed with.

 

Well you'll always see me arguing for more choice, not less. But I understand some options being denied in order to forward the story. The Inquisitor can't just go around murdering innocent people, for obvious reasons. However, for a plot point that doesn't involve the main mission but rather the Inquisitor's own personal opinion? Of course the player should be able to choose that.