630 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

everyone knows you only spread the light of heroism with your works and deeds

Witness him, brother. He will carry us all to the gates of Valhalla.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Witness him, brother. He will carry us all to the gates of Valhalla.

 

MEDIOCRE!

[BansheeOwnage]

Let's suppose that the developers will give to us the options to disrespectful disagree with Krem,Dorian,Sera regarding their sexuality which is something that i find useless to begin with.

 

Those people would also need options for being disrespectful to Bull and Josephine. Oh, and Empress Celene, Briala, Leliana, that gay couple in the winter palace, that guy hitting on Cullen, etc.

 

 

No, I want the choice to disagree with the idea that a transgender person is the gender they claim to be.

Wow, that's stupid. It's like saying "Hey Dorian, you don't actually like men." And someone said (you?) that they wanted options to not call a trans person by their preferred pronoun. Because that would totally be worth all the extra effort, dialogue recording session, and chunk of the word budget it would take up, right? Not to mention the fact that you would probably need more scenes to be created just for that purpose, whether it was said trans person calling you out for it or some other character doing the same. It's pointless.

 

 

Outside of the Qunari we don't know the attitudes of most of Thedas towards transgender individuals, given the direction Patrick Weekes will likely take the issue its unlikely we will see any outright condemnations, so it's not really a good idea to go on about how future games should and will portray it.

Well, we know it can be problematic in Tevinter.

 

Well, obviously nobody's forcing me. Nobody's going to make me love transgendered people. I'd just appreciate not being accused of being a bigot, and 'spreading hate' and so forth when I'm honest in not valuing a transgendered person and normal woman equally.

Apparently your entire system of valuing comes from... well I don't even know what, because transwomen are perfectly capable of being attractive, as someone showed earlier in this thread. So no, your arbitrary viewpoint is indeed simply to devalue transwomen for being transwomen, otherwise you would simply devalue "unattractive" women in general, and not specify transwomen. Which does make you a bigot, but hey, at least you aren't making laws.
 

[Joseph Warrick]

That doesn't work as a parallel, because the referential concept in the definition "woman = person who identifies as a woman" is the term identifies. (...)

The fundamental difference is the identifies vs. the is. This ties into your second point:

The definition is not recursive because of the use of the term "identifies".

A table is a piece of furniture used as a table. A cat is an animal that behaves like a cat. A clerk is a person who works as a clerk. The verb doesn't matter. The problem is the use of the word in the definition of the word. "Identify" is not a special word that makes circular definitions not circular. Here's an example to illustrate it: a beatnik is a person who identifies as a beatnik.

Here's an operative (as in useful) definition for you. A man is a human male. Does that count as hatred, Weekes?

Enough of this navel gazing in the games. Show don't tell. They want transgender people in your game, put them in there. Give them something to do. But don't sit my character at a table and have them listen to someone prattle on about themselves as a sort of didactic workshop about the devs' favourite cause. It's patronizing.

I would say the same thing about labour rights. You want to comment on the labour movement, then you put workers in your game and have them react to things. Lay out a scenario, let it play out. Show stuff happening. Don't give me a lecture like I'm an eight year old.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Also, from a 'It's my right from a role-playing perspective' is BS. What's next, you want BW to create a game that let's you stab children, rape people, become a serial killer? All cause it's your "right" to role-play? Why not take it to a full scale, and get the option to develop advanced technology in Thedas so you can bomb every since city?

There have been threads that legitimately, sincerely asked for these things. 

[Dai Grepher]

What in-universe attitudes are those?  As I recall the issue was not that Krem was transgender but that he bribed the healer in charge and enlisted in roles he was not supposed to be in, in addition to his later desertion.

 

"Why would our women wish to be men?"

 

"Do you believe I wish to be a man?"

 

"You cannot be a man. That will lead you only to frustration."

 

Then there's also Solas' dig against The Iron Bull and his BDSM habit (party banter). Dorian's father. The codex on sexuality in Thedas. Let's also not forget "Female" Elf and Serendipity, no matter how much the developers may want to. Threatening Zervran if you're Warden is male.

[Dai Grepher]

Wow, that's stupid. It's like saying "Hey Dorian, you don't actually like men." And someone said (you?) that they wanted options to not call a trans person by their preferred pronoun. Because that would totally be worth all the extra effort, dialogue recording session, and chunk of the word budget it would take up, right? Not to mention the fact that you would probably need more scenes to be created just for that purpose, whether it was said trans person calling you out for it or some other character doing the same. It's pointless.

 

Incorrect. Dorian actually likes men, and his likes are defined by him and his actions. Therefore, any contrary statement from the custom character would be baseless.

 

That is correct. And no, it would not be a drain on resources. This is already done on behalf of the custom character, who could be male or female. And it all depends how often the custom character refers to the transgendered character. Realistically this would only be three or four lines of dialogue. Depending on how the sentence is composed, it might only be a matter of swapping out one word at the end of the statement or question.

 

Or that conversation would be had initially and then never had again since the transgender and all supporters would not bother trying to "enlighten" the "bigot" after that point.

 

It isn't pointless to provide options for the player to define their custom character.

[BansheeOwnage]

Also he (the poster) expressed fear that BioWare would gleefully trick straight men into a romance with a transgender woman. I think BioWare has grown into a company that respects its entire fanbase and would not use this type of trickery on anyone. But this is all assuming a transgender woman was attracted to men in the first place, which is not always the case. Caitlyn Jenner is sexually attracted to women and women only.

We were talking about that because Maevaris is almost certainly straight and the most likely transgender person to be in the next game.

 

"Why would our women wish to be men?"

 

"Do you believe I wish to be a man?"

 

"You cannot be a man. That will lead you only to frustration."

Sten wasn't talking about transgender people, and neither was the Warden. Besides, no women wish to be men... transmen are men.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Incorrect. Dorian actually likes men, and his likes are defined by him and his actions. Therefore, any contrary statement from the custom character would be baseless.

Aren't transsexuals also the gender they are since that gender is defined by them and their actions? 

[BansheeOwnage]

Incorrect. Dorian actually likes men, and his likes are defined by him and his actions. Therefore, any contrary statement from the custom character would be baseless.

 

That is correct. And no, it would not be a drain on resources. This is already done on behalf of the custom character, who could be male or female. And it all depends how often the custom character refers to the transgendered character. Realistically this would only be three or four lines of dialogue. Depending on how the sentence is composed, it might only be a matter of swapping out one word at the end of the statement or question.

 

Or that conversation would be had initially and then never had again since the transgender and all supporters would not bother trying to "enlighten" the "bigot" after that point.

 

It isn't pointless to provide options for the player to define their custom character.

Yes, Dorian actually likes men, just like Krem is actually a man. Arguing otherwise is stupid; you're not in his head. (Cole is though, and calls Krem a man.) It would most certainly drain resources. Are you seriously comparing the resources they spend on having the option to play as a male or female to the option to not call a person by their preferred pronoun? That's ridiculous. One is a completely worthwhile endeavour and one is pointless, in my opinion. It doesn't matter if only one word is swapped out, it's still an entire new line to record for 4 VAs. I'd also much rather they take 4 lines worth of word-budget and use it for a banter.

 

Sure, you could make it so no one calls you out of it after the first time, but I think that would be unrealistic. If you're having a conversation and someone keeps calling a person "he" and you keep saying "she", it's not just going to go unnoticed.

 

"It isn't pointless to provide options for the player to define their custom character."

 

No, sometimes it is. Like what other people have said about hating Orlesian blondes, or wanting to be able to stab children. Those things are pointless additions, and I think your idea is too. There are always limits to the control you have over your character, because there have to be, and I'd rather they give us more options in some other way.

[KaiserShep]

Threatening Zervran if you're Warden is male.

I could have sworn that you were able to threaten Zevran regardless of gender. 

[Dai Grepher]

Sten wasn't talking about transgender people, and neither was the Warden. Besides, no women wish to be men... transmen are men.

 

Sten was talking about gender, and how it is absolutely fixed to physical sex.

[Dai Grepher]

Aren't transsexuals also the gender they are since that gender is defined by them and their actions? 

 

No. It is not done.

[Ariella]

I could have sworn that you were able to threaten Zevran regardless of gender.

I certainly remember being able to threaten him, and I play strictly females.

[BansheeOwnage]

Sten was talking about gender, and how it is absolutely fixed to physical sex.

No, he was stating how it was absolutely fixed to being a warrior. The Qun has very alien views of gender compared to this world. But we probably shouldn't move on to the topic of whether or not the Qun was retconned in this thread.

[Dai Grepher]

Yes, Dorian actually likes men, just like Krem is actually a man. Arguing otherwise is stupid; you're not in his head. (Cole is though, and calls Krem a man.) It would most certainly drain resources. Are you seriously comparing the resources they spend on having the option to play as a male or female to the option to not call a person by their preferred pronoun? That's ridiculous. One is a completely worthwhile endeavour and one is pointless, in my opinion. It doesn't matter if only one word is swapped out, it's still an entire new line to record for 4 VAs. I'd also much rather they take 4 lines worth of word-budget and use it for a banter.

 

Sure, you could make it so no one calls you out of it after the first time, but I think that would be unrealistic. If you're having a conversation and someone keeps calling a person "he" and you keep saying "she", it's not just going to go unnoticed.

 

"It isn't pointless to provide options for the player to define their custom character."

 

No, sometimes it is. Like what other people have said about hating Orlesian blondes, or wanting to be able to stab children. Those things are pointless additions, and I think your idea is too. There are always limits to the control you have over your character, because there have to be, and I'd rather they give us more options in some other way.

 

Does Krem also live on the moon? That's as attainable.

 

Cole also asks if that is wrong, because he isn't sure. He's only reading Krem's thoughts.

 

I am. The resources needed for that are much greater, yet the resources are allocated anyway. Why? Player choice. But ya know what would REALLY save on resources? Not having transgendered characters. Should BioWare go that route?

 

Right, that's your opinion.

 

Realistically, that group would stop associating with you. But all right, let's say the custom character is called out on it. "HEY! Stop calling her 'him' and 'he'! She's not a man!" The leader glanced over at the one who was shouting at him and calmly said, "No." The irate man's face turned red as his friend held him back and told him to let it go.

 

End scene.

 

Or if you prefer you could write an entire scene where the friend explains all the hardships and difficulties, etc. etc. And the custom character changes his or her mind. But of course that would again require the alternative option to remain steadfast in his or her convictions.

 

Here's the difference between hating Orlesian blonds and having deeply held beliefs about the concept of gender...

 

The one who hates Orlesian blonds is requesting that BioWare create a brand new story to reflect their character's absurdly random personality trait when headcanon will do just fine. The one with deeply held beliefs about gender on the other hand is merely requesting a few dissenting dialogue choices be placed into a storyline that BioWare has already decided to create as part of the game. A storyline that will have a negative effect on the player's custom character and headcanon if the character is forced to espouse a certain dialogue that the player feels ill suited to that custom character.

[Dai Grepher]

I could have sworn that you were able to threaten Zevran regardless of gender. 

 

Even if that's true, the fact you can do so as a male proves my point.

[Dai Grepher]

No, he was stating how it was absolutely fixed to being a warrior. The Qun has very alien views of gender compared to this world. But we probably shouldn't move on to the topic of whether or not the Qun was retconned in this thread.

 

No he wasn't. That was an earlier part of the conversation. His statement there is that a woman cannot become a man.

 

The Qun was not rewritten by the devs. The Iron Bull lies.
 

[BabyPuncher]

Apparently your entire system of valuing comes from... well I don't even know what, because transwomen are perfectly capable of being attractive, as someone showed earlier in this thread. So no, your arbitrary viewpoint is indeed simply to devalue transwomen for being transwomen, otherwise you would simply devalue "unattractive" women in general, and not specify transwomen. Which does make you a bigot, but hey, at least you aren't making laws.

Uhh...I do devalue them in general? It's obviously a little rude to say that out loud but there you go.

True, I really don't want a transgender protagonist or love interest, but I also really don't want, say, a morbidly obese person in any of those roles. Male or female for that matter. Or an unattractive person in general in any of those roles.

And I sure as hell do not want a story trying to pass off to me that a morbidly obese character is beautiful. Just as I sure as hell don't want a story trying to pass off to me that a MtF transgender character is alluring and feminine.

As for where that value comes from, that's the nature of beauty standards. I'm not going to argue most of them are logical or moral, because I can't. But neither can you. Beauty doesn't make sense - okay, maybe not. But it's reality. It's a part of life, and it's not going away. It's something we all place value on, with various degrees of delusion over how supposedly past it we are.

[Andraste_Reborn]

See, this is the fundamental problem with your argument. You cannot determine the worth of a human being based on how much you want to screw them.

 

If people don't want to sleep with me because I'm fat, this is fine. Same way it's fine if they don't want to sleep with me because I'm short or brunette or Australian. If they start arguing I am a person of lesser worth because I am fat and that there shouldn't be stories with fat people in them, then they are being ridiculous. Because the point of stories is not to present you with an endless parade of people that you, personally, find sufficiently attractive.

[KaiserShep]

Even if that's true, the fact you can do so as a male proves my point.

 

I don't believe so.

 

My memory's a bit fuzzy on the specific words in the threaten dialogue, but I don't recall the dialogue specifically addressing Zevran's attraction to a male Warden. Just the same, threatening dialogue toward Zevran's advances can easily be taken into a different context, since among the entire lot of companions, this one did try to murder the Warden. After all, he is not the only character that can potentially hit on a PC of the same sex. Leliana does the exact same thing, and you can tell her you're not interested, but you certainly can't threaten her because of it. 

[BabyPuncher]

You do realize that this applies to males too? I want male characters to be fit and tall and good looking. That should give you a hint that maybe it's rather shallow and short sighted to reduce the concept of beauty to "I need to see people I want to screw"? Seeing as how I'm straight and all?

Nobody is claiming it's the sole factor at play or anything remotely close to it. But it's not nothing, either.

[KaiserShep]

You do realize that this applies to males too? I want male characters to be fit and tall and good looking.

 

 

All of them? A franchise rife with scruffy ass dwarves and horned giants is bound to make that problematic. 

[BabyPuncher]

No, not all of them. A certain amount of variety is well and good. But enough that the general ideal is understood.