630 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

Uhh...I do devalue them in general? It's obviously a little rude to say that out loud but there you go.

True, I really don't want a transgender protagonist or love interest, but I also really don't want, say, a morbidly obese person in any of those roles. Male or female for that matter. Or an unattractive person in general in any of those roles.

And I sure as hell do not want a story trying to pass off to me that a morbidly obese character is beautiful. Just as I sure as hell don't want a story trying to pass off to me that a MtF transgender character is alluring and feminine.

As for where that value comes from, that's the nature of beauty standards. I'm not going to argue most of them are logical or moral, because I can't. But neither can you. Beauty doesn't make sense - okay, maybe not. But it's reality. It's a part of life, and it's not going away. It's something we all place value on, with various degrees of delusion over how supposedly past it we are.

You obviously ignored the part about there being attractive transgender women in real life, who are "feminine and alluring". If you apparently value or devalue someone because of their appearance and not because you want you to have sex with them, there is no reason you shouldn't find those transwomen attractive as well, considering you probably wouldn't know they were transwomen unless it was pointed out. Your whole argument is beyond stupid. And as others said, how much you find someone aesthetically pleasing has nothing to do with their value as a person, or equality when it comes to the law.

[BabyPuncher]

Yes, surgery and cosmetics and prosthetics and hormone injections can accomplish quite a bit.

Like I said, I don't claim that these sorts of standards are logical or moral. In all likelihood they probably are ultimately the result of some evolutionary fluke or another of our primative monkey brains. But logical and moral or not, they're reality. I enjoy them and I value them. If you want to be angry at that, go right on ahead, but you're not escaping them.

[SolNebula]

Soo...I don't like transgenderism and Weeks is basically telling me GTFO...guess I'm going to spend my money elsewhere. Fine I'm not going to give a single dime on DA franchise anymore. Gotta see before leaving what they are going to cook in ME kitchens...if it is the same bs then i'm done with BW because frankly I don't feel catered as a customer anymore.

 

Respectfully leaving the thread.

[Andraste_Reborn]

You do realize that this applies to males too? I want male characters to be fit and tall and good looking. That should give you a hint that maybe it's rather shallow and short sighted to reduce the concept of beauty to "I need to see people I want to screw"? Seeing as how I'm straight and all?

 

I don't think replacing 'people babypuncher wants to have sex with' with 'people babypuncher wants to look at' makes your argument less silly, no.

 

I'm still not sure why you think that your personal aesthetic standards should determine what characters BioWare put into their video games.

[SofaJockey]

No, I want the choice to disagree with the idea that a transgender person is the gender they claim to be.

 

And there's the issue.

You don't and won't get the choice to disagree because BioWare are not going to allow hateful dialogue.

Krem has stated his gender identity and that's the end of it.

Future characters will be handled respectfully by the protagonist too.

 

I'm not going to debate any real life attempts people make to disagree with

other people's gender identity, although it's behaviour I despise, it's not a matter for a game forum.

 

Back to the matter in hand, Patrick Weekes' statement on the matter was very clear:

 

"We would allow the character to be ignorant, NOT allow the character to be hateful"

"People that don't want trans-characters in their video games "I feel sorry for them, play something else"

 

As for the last several pages, and I can really see why tempers are fraying,

let's not continue with this whole Krem dialogue debate because within the context of BioWare's game output it's not changing.

BioWare have made it crystal clear how it's going to be and good for them.

 

This started as a terrific thread before it turned nasty, it doesn't deserve a lock.

 

Soo...I don't like transgenderism and Weeks is basically telling me GTFO...guess I'm going to spend my money elsewhere. Fine I'm not going to give a single dime on DA franchise anymore. Gotta see before leaving what they are going to cook in ME kitchens...if it is the same bs then i'm done with BW because frankly I don't feel catered as a customer anymore.

 

Respectfully leaving the thread.

 

Respectfully, Patrick Weekes is saying he is not going to cater to hateful customers.

I have no doubt such a sentiment will equally apply to Mass Effect and the new IP.

[BabyPuncher]

I don't think replacing 'people babypuncher wants to have sex with' with 'people babypuncher wants to look at' makes your argument less silly, no.
 
I'm still not sure why you think that your personal aesthetic standards should determine what characters BioWare put into their video games.

It's not "me" at all, is it? It's everyone. Take a look at the overwhelmingly vast majority of films, games, television programs etc. out there. From dark and brooding dramas, to bright and silly children's stories, to fantasy and science fiction, they're just about always filled with people significantly more attractive than the average. It's not just 'me' they do that for.

Oh, and that includes every BioWare game, of course.

People clearly get something out of it.

[SolNebula]

Respectfully, Patrick Weekes is saying he is not going to cater to hateful customers.

I have no doubt such a sentiment will equally apply to Mass Effect and the new IP.

 

People using words lightly...like you. Not liking something =/= hate. Respectfully grab a dictionary.

They can push whatever agenda they want as long as they leave me the choice to disagree in the game. This isn't hate...is called DEMOCRACY.

[Andraste_Reborn]

It's not "me" at all, is it? It's everyone. Take a look at the overwhelmingly vast majority of films, games, television programs etc. out there. From dark and brooding dramas, to bright and silly children's stories, to fantasy and science fiction, they're just about always filled with people significantly more attractive than the average. It's not just 'me' they do that for.

 

The majority of heroes in Hollywood films and video games aren't only tall and conventionally attractive. They're straight, white, able-bodied cis dudes. That's certainly not an accident. What we think of as attractive is influenced by the society we live in. (There are some things that seem to be constant - clear skin seems to be universally appealing - but stuff like ideal body weight and shape and skin tone are culturally dependant.) So are which characters we see as appropriate protagonists. And because these things aren't universal and somehow divorced from culture, we can go about changing them if we want. Cultures change what they see as desirable all the time, consciously or otherwise.

 

I'm not convinced that all we see is all that the audience wants to see. It's certainly not all that I want to see. I'm not convinced that entire potential audience for BioWare games objects to trans people - and fat people and short people and people of colour and women and disabled people and gay people and bi people and ... well, everyone else who is not a tall, conventionally attractive straight, white, able-bodied cis dude - appearing in their fiction.

 

And I want to see more of all that diversity in BioWare games. More trans characters is certainly a good start.

[Panda]

We might even have more races in ME4 that approaches genders differently than humans do, since we already have alien race like Asari that is monogendered. It would be intresting if there was race that were genderless or gender-fluid

 

What becomes on transgender humans in ME, I think they likely exist in the universe, but most likely transitions are easier and probaply it's seen as less controversial cause there is weird aliens all over who exactly don't fit to human's sexes and gender norms either.. so much "weirder" things to consider.

[Sleekshinobi]

Bioware is really bending over backwards to avoid verbal internet punches nowadays. They're really pathetic IMO. For years they've been pleasing the crowd in any way they can and it's come to the point where their fiction has lost its authenticity since DA:I in my opinion.

 

I don't hate on transgendered people. They can have a game that solely has a transgender romance partner if they want... but what I'm pissed about, is that Bioware,right now, only seems interested in this because people are threatening them to do it. I don't think Bioware would've done this by their own accord two or three years ago. Some good could come of it if they handle the theme with grace, but all I can think of is it becoming really dishonest and half-hearted and probably ignorant too. I know Patrick is a good guy and he knows a lot of people from all kinds of minorities, but I really hope he wouldn't just do transgender romance for the sake of including transgender people.

 

I just want romance, gay, straight, lesbian, metro or transsexual to be done so it feels like its in service of a bigger story, and not just their awful pandering romances that are pushed to the side as soon as you've seen their naked butts and all their initial impact goes away because "Too many variables to work with" and the endgame story in no way has any relation to your protagonist and his love interest.*GASP*

 

Just give us a good plot with rewarding choices ffs. (and optional and unrelated-to-plot romances gtfo)

 

Solas' romance in DA:I was the only romance option that I felt was truly good and in service of the plot... but the more romances they include the less room there is for main-story cinematics and ****, and there were, what, 8 romances in DA:I? EIGHT!? C'mon, Bioware, get back in the game. You were doing great 8 years ago (...wow, it really has been 8-9 years since I felt they rocked ass)

This is my issue as well. I don't mind transgender characters being added to the game as long as it feels natural and not just added to please a certain crowd. 

[SolNebula]

If you want politics, I suggest give up gaming and go join a political party where you can preach your beliefs.

 

This is a game. There is no agenda; devs have decided to include, acknowledge and welcome people of the "LGBT" community. Right or wrong, they're not going to include content that is offensive. 

 

Don't like it? Bah - bye!! Honestly, I doubt the devs give two squirts whether somebody is happy or unhappy with what they do to their games, there will always be a growing fanbase, you win some, you lose some.

 

No you are wrong...there is an agenda in BW games and recently this is becoming less and less subtle. Bear in mind I don't have anything against having their own agenda BUT forcefully make me agreeing with them is so tyrannical and unliberal. If this is still an RPG game then I would have the option of disagreeing with their stance. Of course in a polite and civilized manner. Don't worry i'm going to leave soon just want to see how things are going to be in ME:Next. Then i'll take my leave.

 

To all others. Regarding ME I don't have anything against alien races having mutable gender if that is their biology. It's all about science. Pure science is not like social science where you can have an interpretation or an opinion on it. It's SCIENCE. In human biology you are either male or female and this is related on how we are born. The rest are opinions.

[SolNebula]

Lol seriously man you are quite fcked up. I have my own views and not just in my brain. I voice them clearly but in polite manner. Nobody here mentioned gay people but transgender....slightly different thing you know? Taking my leave....for real.

[SofaJockey]

People using words lightly...like you. Not liking something =/= hate. Respectfully grab a dictionary.

They can push whatever agenda they want as long as they leave me the choice to disagree in the game. This isn't hate...is called DEMOCRACY.

 

No. The statement was that even the small existence of transgenderism in the game was enough to end your interest in the franchise, that's hateful in my book, but your choice.

 

I'm seeing no 'agenda' being pushed, just normal tolerant behaviour.

 

It's not a democracy.

They make the game to their rules (and given the game's success, rules they are widely applauded for).

You have no choice about the inclusion of hateful dialogue, none.

[SolNebula]

So flat out stating, "I don't like transgender therefore I'm gonna stop playing BW cause they don't cater to me any more" is polite?

 

Ah.. no.

 

Not exactly what I'm trying to say...more like "I don't like transgender therefore i'm gonna stop playing BW cause they don't let me disagree with their stance on the matter in their game and force me to have an opinion which is different from one that I have".

 

And telling to your customers. We think THIS if you don't like don't buy our product IS forcing an agenda.

[Arisugawa]

No you are wrong...there is an agenda in BW games and recently this is becoming less and less subtle. Bear in mind I don't have anything against having their own agenda BUT forcefully make me agreeing with them is so tyrannical and unliberal. If this is still an RPG game then I would have the option of disagreeing with their stance. Of course in a polite and civilized manner. Don't worry i'm going to leave soon just want to see how things are going to be in ME:Next. Then i'll take my leave.

 

To all others. Regarding ME I don't have anything against alien races having mutable gender if that is their biology. It's all about science. Pure science is not like social science where you can have an interpretation or an opinion on it. It's SCIENCE. In human biology you are either man or female and this is related on how we are born. The rest are opinions.

 

I'm not going to get into the agenda part of this discussion, but hammering home the biology and science argument is not going to help you on this matter.

 

The root causes of phenomena like transsexualism are just beginning to be truly be researched and understood, but evidence for it is being uncovered. A 1995 study found the part of the brain partially responsible for gender and sexual behavior was different in transsexuals: essentially, a male-to-female individual has a female-sized central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminals and conversely, a female-to-male individual has a male-sized counterpart. This test was done with both a group who had undergone hormonal therapy and one who had not, and the results were the same, indicating that this variance predates any medicinal assistance.

 

Similar tests in 2008 looked at the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus and found similar conclusions: these female-to-male individuals have male-sized and male-to-female have female-sized regardless of any hormonal therapy.

 

I'm not saying this is in any way conclusive. The research into all of this is still very young comparatively speaking and further studies could obviously turn up new evidence.

 

Related to this - Individuals are often born intersexed (i'm not speak of true hermaphrodism, which is a different). Historically speaking, parents and physicians often chose a sex for the child at birth, surgically, and this often lead to terrible consequences later. There's a huge backlash against arbitrarily making that choice for a child and then forcing them to live by the choice the parents and physicians made, when a terrible percentage of the time the child ends having identity issues later on, never knowing why they feel the way they do. As a result, the medical world is becoming more and more accepting of intersex individuals as intersexed individuals.

 

Demanding that we recognize someone as male or female based solely upon what is between their legs by using science or biology as the defense is a becoming an increasingly weak argument. Life doesn't work this way, and for quite a few individuals, life didn't work that way for them.

 

If you want to feel as you do, the majority of people out there certainly share similar views. It is, however, a fallacy to assume anything in biology is absolute. Science and biology isn't immutable nor is it static. An entire spectrum of variance exists out in that realm and we're just scratching the surface of it.

[SolNebula]

The only agenda here, is one of making money. Welcome to the world.

 

Fair enough I can relate with this idea. Guess I'm out of their target audience. Consequently I shall not buy their products any longer. I conclude my discussion with you Sir. Enjoy the next generation of BW games.

 

If you want to feel as you do, the majority of people out there certainly share similar views. It is, however, a fallacy to assume anything in biology is absolute. Science and biology isn't immutable nor is it static. An entire spectrum of variance exists out in that realm and we're just scratching the surface of it.

 

On a lot of levels I might agree with the bolded part but not on gender. This is not an opinion but a fact. People might prefer being something different or prefer the same sex company (which is legitimate) but this does not change the fact they are born with a specific detemined gender which is something different from how we perceive ourself. I might consider myself close to Swedish people in the way of thinking or preferences but that doesn't change the fact that i'm German because I was born as one.

[daveliam]

This all falls back to the age old BSN argument:

"Bioware should feel free to make the games that they want to make and not feel pressured to cater into any group's requests.  Unless they choose to make games that don't cater to my group's request in which case they shouldn't be free to make the games that they want to make."

[The Elder King]

I think Bioware analyzed enough the situation and What might happen If they follow this path. So While writing feedback might give them additional data, I doubt it'd change their minds.
And regardless if you disagree with their stance, at least they're informing people on their plans, so you can decide If you want to buy their games with enough knowledge.

[SofaJockey]

Fair enough I can relate with this idea. Guess I'm out of their target audience. Consequently I shall not buy their products any longer. I conclude my discussion with you Sir. Enjoy the next generation of BW games.

 

 

On a lot of levels I might agree with the bolded part but not on gender. This is not an opinion but a fact. People might prefer being something different or prefer the same sex company (which is legitimate) but this does not change the fact they are born with a specific detemined gender which is something different from how we perceive ourself. I might consider myself close to Swedish people in the way of thinking or preferences but that doesn't change the fact that i'm German because I was born as one.

 

I'd like to make the observation that this is not about biology, this is about respect.

 

I'm a 50 something white, straight guy, so what do I know about experiencing hate and discrimination? 

Nothing really, actually BSN has been a real education, my daughters are quite impressed with my new understanding of the issues.

 

So if there is a trans character (Krem being a pretty minor character in the scheme of things) in the game

I'm incredulous that not being able to belittle that character's view of themselves is of itself a reason to abandon support of the franchise.

 

And I'm concerned about this issue, not to deprive you of a choice, but because

offering a choice to be hateful about a trans character's gender identity is disrespectful of real life players.

 

I don't buy the argument, 'you have it pretty sh!t in real life from some people, so you won't mind us harassing you some more in the game'...

 

So the only reasons I can ascribe to the extreme reaction:

'Let me disagree with the trans 'man' or I'm not playing your games'

has to motivated by hate or ignorance, I mean what else could it be?

 

Usually, as evidenced from other Krem threads, pronoun errors are down to ignorance.

 

I particularly like this short explanation on a nice little website 'Transwhat?' from which I'm going to quote a brief section

for the reason that once it is understood, why would anyone make a stand on principle of disagreeing?

 

[Extract] "I'll be using the word trans as a shorthand to describe people who:

 

Are born with bodies that were assigned male at birth, but do not consider themselves to be men or boys.

Are born with bodies that were assigned female at birth, but do not consider themselves to be women or girls.

 

Okay. Now, here's my bottom line.

 

If someone says "I am a woman," or "I am a man," or "I am ____," please take that person seriously. Our cultural framework tends to tell us that their bodies may contradict their statements — that there's no way you could be a guy with XX chromosomes, or a genderless person with an obvious beard. But the trans person is the one who's right, and the simplistic framework is the model that's wrong. Gender is not dependent on physical appearances, or on the word of doctors, friends, family. The individuals are the ones who get to assert their own identity.

 

Transsexual women genuinely are women, regardless of their being born with bodies that people tend to consider "male."

Transsexual men genuinely are men, no less so than any other man.

And when people say that they are neither male nor female, that is an actual experience that they're undergoing: they truly do not feel comfortable when people think of them as one or the other.

 

It is disrespectful to call people by certain pronouns or names when they request otherwise. It is disrespectful to say things like "You're still my son" or "You'll always be a woman to me." Trans people are truly, unavoidably, fundamentally not members of the genders that they were assigned at birth. An individual who has transitioned is not an "ex-boy" or an "ex-girl." A trans man, though born with a reproductive system that is most commonly found in females, is not (and never has been) a woman; though he was labeled as a girl when he was young, that label was incorrect. He is a "real man," despite the unusual condition of his body at birth. I hope that's clear enough!"

 

So given that information, which I only learned within the last year, it has to be said,

why on earth would I from some semantic stubbornness insist on disagreeing with

how another character, and by extension, other players conduct their identity and their life?

 

That's why BioWare are not following an agenda, they are just trying to be nice to all their players

including some who have had a pretty raw deal in the past.

Who am I to deprive the pleasure of the game to others because 'my world view' trumps theirs?

[SolNebula]

@Sofajockey

So in the end you would like people to lie about facts because that makes someone feel better? Sure I guess I can tell that white color is black and black color is white if that makes you feel better. This though won't change the FACT that white color is white and black color is black.

 

It's not stubborness it's how our bodies are created by nature. No amount of social justice or politics will change this. Each one of us is free to live the life they want, the way they want but gender (in the case of humanity) is not something about choice it's something given by nature