630 réponses à ce sujet

[PapaCharlie9]

I'd also like to add that forcing the agenda down the players' throats is simply a bad strategy if you want to educate the masses. And yes, there are lots of players to educate out there. If you let them question something, it will give them an illusion of choice, of letting them express their opinion. The best way would be to let the player react to Krem (for example) however they want to and then show them how cool he is, let him explain his feelings and experiences. A lot of bigotry comes from not knowing or understanding the issue.

Every game forces an agenda down players's throats, Bioware is just one of the few that does it intentionally.
 
I agree with you that there was a missed opportunity. What I would have liked to seen is Oghren do a cameo. Oghren shows up in the tavern, gets introduce to The Boys and ends up saying some typically Oghren offensive-but-some-players-would-read-as-normative to Krem. The exchange goes back and forth a few times, with Oghren saying increasingly offensive (and, if I have any say in it, hilarious) things. Finally, the player as IQ gets a choice: a) step in and tell Oghren to shut up, B) step in and say something cuttingly witty in Krem's defense, c) stay out of it (players may interpret this as silently supporting Oghren, which is fine). If 'c' is chosen, Krem ends up decking Oghren.
 
This would provide all the choice being asked for here, while being completely consistent with the style/politics of the game writers.

[Dai Grepher]

Why on earth should BW have to cater to a country that is currently recognized as being homophobic to the point that individuals are beaten or murdered for NOT being heterosexual? I was watching the news a few weeks ago (don't remember the exact date, but this was fairly recent) and saw people protesting the poor treatment (an understatement) of homosexuals in Moscow. The peaceful protesters were pretty quickly attacked, and I saw individuals being beaten by homophobic nationalists.

 

I think BW is just making the point that they won't cater to bigots of any stripe and that people who are bothered by their progressive attitudes and characters would probably be better off finding a game that's more palatable to them. Besides, there are already so many other games to play in which all the homophobes of the world won't ever have to deal with the reality that gay people exist.

 

Eh, you might be taking that to the extreme. We're not talking about the whole country or even those people who hate other people. We're talking about the average folk who love and accept the people, but also object to the behavior/activity.

 

I think BioWare would be mistaken to brand those with rational objections as "bigots" and then tell them to go play something else. In fact, I would dare call that attitude prejudicial. Better to make a game that accommodates as many as possible, and for the record, I think Inquisition succeeded in that endeavor. Sure I would have preferred a more forceful statement disagreeing with Bull, but oh well.

[Dieb]

Okay, let's cut to the chase.

 

On a scale of 1 to 10:

How important is it for you to have your character say transgender people are weird and, I mean seriously now, also a little gross?

 

(1 being "I don't care", 10 being "I would apply at BioWare to program it in there myself")

 

You're willing to write novellas on the matter; now pick a number, any number.

[Al Foley]

Every game forces an agenda down players's throats, Bioware is just one of the few that does it intentionally.
 
I agree with you that there was a missed opportunity. What I would have liked to seen is Oghren do a cameo. Oghren shows up in the tavern, gets introduce to The Boys and ends up saying some typically Oghren offensive-but-some-players-would-read-as-normative to Krem. The exchange goes back and forth a few times, with Oghren saying increasingly offensive (and, if I have any say in it, hilarious) things. Finally, the player as IQ gets a choice: a) step in and tell Oghren to shut up, step in and say something cuttingly witty in Krem's defense, c) stay out of it (players may interpret this as silently supporting Oghren, which is fine). If 'c' is chosen, Krem ends up decking Oghren.
 
This would provide all the choice being asked for here, while being completely consistent with the style/politics of the game writers.

And yet they are also one of the few who do it with any class, subtletly, and understanding.  

 

Okay, let's cut to the chase.

 

On a scale of 1 to 10:

How important is it for you to have your character say transgender people are weird and, I mean seriously now, also a little gross?

 

(1 being "I don't care", 10 being "I would apply at BioWare to program it in there myself")

 

You're willing to write novellas on the matter; now pick a number, any number.

7.  

[Dai Grepher]

EA is probably very happy about it. BioWare's progressive stance on these matters generates a lot of good PR and generates high attachment rates from female and LGBT populations, which is an under-utilized market. It's a big deal to those people, and a small deal (or a plus) to everyone else. Well, almost everyone. Those who wouldn't buy a game because it doesn't let you RP a bigot? Very small population that BioWare can indeed tell to go play something else.

 

Which could also be the difference between a release hitting a million unit milestone or not. No reason to alienate those players. That's my point.

[Dieb]

No reason to alienate those players.

 

I love how you put that one.

[Dai Grepher]

I love how you put that one.

 

Thanks. And my answer is 7 also.

[Alex Hawke]

Okay, let's cut to the chase.

 

On a scale of 1 to 10:

How important is it for you to have your character say transgender people are weird and, I mean seriously now, also a little gross?

 

(1 being "I don't care", 10 being "I would apply at BioWare to program it in there myself")

 

You're willing to write novellas on the matter; now pick a number, any number.

Another important opportunity, which I would never use.

So, it's 1.

 

Edit. On the other hand, lack of option to be a transophobic bigot decreases the value of option to be an adequate person, bringing the importance of the choice to 5.

Modifié par Alex Hawke, 05 juin 2015 - 04:22 .

[Dieb]

Thanks. And my answer is 7 also.

 

[Al Foley]

Poor Castle just does not know what to say.  

[vanek2112]

That was painful to read...twitter was really NOT meant for interviews.  Thanks for posting though!

[Dieb]

The vote has been stored.

 

At the end of the day, we will finally be able to present to the world just how much we, as a community unscathed by public ridicule, proudly demand our characters to be able to express "transgender people are weird and, I mean seriously now, also a little gross".

 

The current average is 7, with 10 indicating the readiness to dedicated one's professional life to a career in gamedesign, with the sole purpose of remedying this severe threat to our lifestyle like a man (or woman, but not both!) of action - ourselves.

[Dai Grepher]

Well I figure if 10 is getting a job at BioWare, then 9 is modding, 8 is emailing BioWare, which leaves 7 as posting about it on BSN. And I guess I'm doing exactly that.

[Al Foley]

The vote has been stored.

 

At the end of the day, we will finally be able to present to the world just how much we, as a community unscathed by public ridicule, proudly demand our characters to be able to express "transgender people are weird and, I mean seriously now, also a little gross".

 

The current average is 7, with 10 indicating the readiness to dedicated one's professional life to a career in gamedesign, with the sole purpose of remedying this severe threat to our lifestyle like a man (or woman, but not both!) of action - ourselves.

...I don't think you defined the parameters of what exactly I was voting for.  

[MoonblaDAI]

<snip>

 

I don't think telling part of a consumer base to "shoo" is good business. Sorry. Yeah, problem solved for the ones who toss the series. Problem had for the shareholders, and thus the writers.

 

The numeric value that goes in the place of the bold and underlined "part" that you wrote would be what the shareholders would care at the end. Any business have implicit a degree of risk, some companies are willing to take that risk if the investment would end being successful in the long run. It is nothing new, it is called "Market Segmentation" (http://en.wikipedia....et_segmentation). Even some business (odd, isn't it) would do what is right even if simply it could bring benefits in the PR department. 

 

As a prime example let me submit for your consideration the following Ad:

Spoiler

 

I assume that most people are aware at this point of the "controversy" (note the quotes) that this Ad brought, however General Mills stuck to its guns and it ended bringing more (and diverse) consumers to their products. Perhaps they lost some bigots, but at the end the strategy was successful and the shareholders are happy.

[CronoDragoon]

Which could also be the difference between a release hitting a million unit milestone or not. No reason to alienate those players. That's my point.

 

There is plenty of reason to alienate players who won't buy a game because you can't be an ass to a trans character.

 

Also: just how large do you think the above population is?

[Dai Grepher]

The numeric value that goes in the place of the bold and underlined "part" that you wrote would be what the shareholders would care at the end. Any business have implicit a degree of risk, some companies are willing to take that risk if the investment would end being successful in the long run. Even some business (odd, isn't it) would do what is right even if simply it could bring benefits in the PR department.

 

I would think even one customer would be too many considering the fact all customers could be adequately accommodated through more player choice options.

 

In fact, Weeks was saying this just a few months ago, how they wanted Krem to seem natural to the situation and plot and not forced. That's exactly what the fans are saying should be continued. But Weeks now seems to be saying, "I'm going to inject even more transgenderism into the plot and if you don't like it, tough!" If I'm mistaken about his intentions then I'll retract that, but that's the impression I got from the twitter post.

[DustyTulip]

 

What does that mean? I'm grateful for the transcript, but this Twitter-style conversation still seems supremely disjointed to me and I can't figure out the context for this. When does Cole make us forget anything (unless we refuse to let him join or annoy him into leaving)?

 

Agreed 100%. I really appreciate the interviewer and I am really looking forward to listening to the interview, but this looks like such a clickbait/milking of the content tactic that it irks me. David Gaider even commented on a few of his tweets to clarify as they sounded kind of misleading. Again, huge thanks to the interviewer for making the interview and editing the content, I just wish it was done in a less click-baity way... if that makes any sense at all.

 

 

 

Okay, let's cut to the chase.

 

On a scale of 1 to 10:

How important is it for you to have your character say transgender people are weird and, I mean seriously now, also a little gross?

 

(1 being "I don't care", 10 being "I would apply at BioWare to program it in there myself")

 

You're willing to write novellas on the matter; now pick a number, any number.

 

7-8? 

[Dai Grepher]

There is plenty of reason to alienate players who won't buy a game because you can't be an ass to a trans character.

 

Also: just how large do you think the above population is?

 

Such as? Also, I'm not necessarily saying be an ass to a trans character. I'm just saying have an option to disagree with the concept of transgenderism. Same as how you can disagree with Vivienne about mage rights.

 

For the sake of argument, let's say the population is one. Why alienate even a single player?

[Dieb]

"I'm going to inject even more transgenderism into the plot and if you don't like it, tough!"

 

"I'm going to inject -stuff- into the plot, and if you don't like it, tough!"

-A good writer of something, any medium, ever.

 

Also you're obviously pointing out it's indeed transgederism in general for you, and not the limited RP-options. You do realize that changes the entire point?

 

If DA gets too transgendery for you, then "tough".  I don't like GoT because it's often too unsettling for me to watch after work to relax, but I don't go on and demand that they include less "rapism and murderism".

[AlanC9]

I think BioWare would be mistaken to brand those with rational objections as "bigots" and then tell them to go play something else. In fact, I would dare call that attitude prejudicial. Better to make a game that accommodates as many as possible, and for the record, I think Inquisition succeeded in that endeavor. Sure I would have preferred a more forceful statement disagreeing with Bull, but oh well.

What rational objections would those be? Or rather, how do we distinguish the rational objections from the irrational ones?

[Mihura]

Wait what? but you can be an asshat in DA:I when talking to Krem about his id, so I do not get what people are getting at. Also Sera can be really gross when it comes to penis/male, vaginas/female kinda of jokes, also really shitty comments in the Orlais ball.

So if anything there is a lot of non-political correctness in game already about this, and to be honest cringeworthy comments in the other games.

[CronoDragoon]

Such as?

1. They are a statistically insignificant population.
2. Capitulating to them could potentially anger other, potentially larger populations.
3. You don't want to include said option.
 

Also, I'm not necessarily saying be an ass to a trans character. I'm just saying have an option to disagree with the concept of transgenderism. Same as how you can disagree with Vivienne about mage rights.

I don't see how that's the same situation at all, but okay, instead of "being an ass" I'll change it to "RPing being ignorant yet still deciding to voice an uneducated opinion anyway."
 

For the sake of argument, let's say the population is one. Why alienate even a single player?

 
Because they are asking you to produce content you don't want to produce, and because trying to appease people who are fundamentally irrational (ie, those who won't buy the game because it's a huge deal to be able to role-play ignorance re: trans people) is a rabbit hole that isn't worth going down.

[AlanC9]

Such as? Also, I'm not necessarily saying be an ass to a trans character. I'm just saying have an option to disagree with the concept of transgenderism. Same as how you can disagree with Vivienne about mage rights.
 
For the sake of argument, let's say the population is one. Why alienate even a single player?

Because it isn't worth the zots to cater to him? There's a case for letting the PC disagree with everything, or even be an ass about everything. But all those dialogue branches have to pass an ROI check.

[In Exile]

People don't just want to be asshats - they want to be demeaning in a kind of repeated and universal way, and not just to Krem, but to the people like him (see e.g. the post about objecting to the "concept" of "transgenderism").