630 réponses à ce sujet

[BabyPuncher]

Well, this is disappointing.

My faith in BioWare's competence drops yet another notch.

And here I thought stories were about human experiences and truths. Nope, it turns out the existence of a transgender person is more 'inspiring' than any of that.

This would certainly contribute to explaining the sheer vapidity of Inquisiton's narrative and characters.

[CosmicGnosis]

Well, this is disappointing.

My faith in BioWare's competence drops yet another notch.

And here I thought stories were about human experiences and truths. Nope, it turns out the existence of a transgender person is more 'inspiring' than any of that.

And yet, a username like BabyPuncher embodies everything that is wrong with humanity.

[BansheeOwnage]

Regarding negative reactions in the dialogue to characters like Krem, etc. I'm not one for hateful attitudes either. But it's an RPG, and sometimes the ability to be rude or insensitive makes a good character arc. For example, I remember how Shepard in ME could start off being kind of an ignorant jerk about aliens. By the end of the series, aliens could be some of Shepard's best friends, or potential LI. In DA2, Hawke has some pretty insensitive lines too, regarding elves, mages, etc. Especially sarcastic Hawke, who was totally politically incorrect...but by the same token, totally unafraid to confront crazy templars, blood mages, and hypocrites like Meredith. So sometimes it's interesting to play from the perspective of a character that is an anti hero or who has flaws. I hope they don't totally remove all negativity in general from the PC's characterization and dialogue. Perhaps they could just make it more realistic. Like if the PC is rude or cruel, it comes back to bite them later, instead of just having companions who follow you no matter what.

That is fine. The thing is though, all of those examples are fictional. They let us explore reality through metaphor. There would be no point having the option to be a bigoted sexist jerk for the sake of pleasing bigoted sexist jerks, while at the same time, it wouldn't make sense within the story.

[AresKeith]

Well, this is disappointing.

My faith in BioWare's competence drops yet another notch.

And here I thought stories were about human experiences and truths. Nope, it turns out the existence of a transgender person is more 'inspiring' than any of that.

 

Not heroic enough?

[Mihura]

Well, this is disappointing.

My faith in BioWare's competence drops yet another notch.

And here I thought stories were about human experiences and truths. Nope, it turns out the existence of a transgender person is more 'inspiring' than any of that.

 

Your statement is a contraction in itself because being trans is part of the human experiences since ever. 

[BabyPuncher]

And yet, a username like BabyPuncher epitomizes everything that is wrong with humanity.

Yes. What's wrong with humanity is people choosing mildly humorous usernames. You got me.

[AtreiyaN7]

Eh, you might be taking that to the extreme. We're not talking about the whole country or even those people who hate other people. We're talking about the average folk who love and accept the people, but also object to the behavior/activity.

 

I think BioWare would be mistaken to brand those with rational objections as "bigots" and then tell them to go play something else. In fact, I would dare call that attitude prejudicial. Better to make a game that accommodates as many as possible, and for the record, I think Inquisition succeeded in that endeavor. Sure I would have preferred a more forceful statement disagreeing with Bull, but oh well.

 

I was responding to a poster who pretty much said half of the Russian consumers can't stand homosexuals, would be turned off by the presence of a homosexual character, and would just pirate the game because they don't like being told to find another game more suited to their tastes. Now don't get me wrong, I think there's room for serious subjects to be dealt like slavery, racism, etc. in games and that, yes, options should be in there for people to play as an evil character if they want.

 

However, I don't think BW should excise or rewrite characters who are gay, transgender, etc. because some random poster says they're allegedly going to lose half their customers in another country because those customers are flat-out homophobic or are bothered by certain issues. If people can't deal with one particular subject being untouchable and not being able to discriminate against a particular group at will, well, they do need to find another game if this one thing bothers them.

 

As far as any hypothetically villainous character goes, I'd personally prefer to see a character display intelligence, ruthlessness, cunning, and pragmatism (for once), rather than having an evil character who acts like a total thug or a racist or a jerk, etc.

[BabyPuncher]

Your statement is a contraction in itself because being trans is part of the human experiences since a ever.

Did you miss the part where I said 'existence' of a transgender chapter? Because that's really Krem's role, of course. To stand there and be transgender.

[AlexiaRevan]

 

 

As far as any hypothetically villainous character goes, I'd personally prefer to see a character display intelligence, ruthlessness, cunning, and pragmatism (for once), rather than having an evil character who acts like a total thug or a racist or a jerk, etc.

So much this..the evil is mostly being an ass...and got lost between bullying and give me all your money ! 

[CosmicGnosis]

Yes. What's wrong with humanity is people choosing mildly humorous usernames. You got me.

All I see you do is complain. I've never seen you say anything humorous, unless your extreme pessimism is the joke. And without the obvious humor and irony, your username isn't very funny.

 

 

.... Now, sorry for potentially derailing the thread.

[Mihura]

Did you miss the part where I said 'existence' of a transgender chapter? Because that's really Krem's role, of course. To stand there and be transgender.

 

Not really, he actually does not stand that much. Krem is always sitting on a chair in an awkward position.

[Dieb]

Did you miss the part where I said 'existence' of a transgender chapter? Because that's really Krem's role, of course. To stand there and be transgender.

 

If there's a group of five white dudes and one black guy, would you point him out by saying "the guy in the orange shirt" to your friends?

[Mihura]

If there's a group of five white dudes and one black guy, would you point him out by saying "the guy in the orange shirt" to your friends?

 

Orange is the new Black it seems. 

 

I am so sorry.

[BabyPuncher]

By the way, didn't Gaider or Weeks themselves say at one at the events between ME3 and DAI how important it was for people to understand their perspectives were always "I think..." and never "I know" or something of the sort? Understand they're always one voice of many and that it's always a subjective opinion?

I remember watching a panel and a staff member clearly saying that. I guess that only applies when it's convenient for them.

Well, that sort of hypocrisy seems to be increasing part and parcel of BioWare.

[raging_monkey]

Orange is the new Black it seems.

I am so sorry.

it's a damn good show

[AlexiaRevan]

Not really, he actually does not stand that much. Krem is always sitting on a chair in an awkward way. 

krem is bugged in mine......lol he always hover over the chair 

[In Exile]

I mean George R.R. Martin, not the show producers and rewriters who are milking the series.

Martin is almost comically liberal by US standards. Read his Not A Blog from time to time. His series is almost chock full of pretty liberal messages and a general attack on what are considered "conservative" ideas and philosophies. Having bad things - in written media - happen to certain characters to illustrate the visceral horror of something is very different from creating content that people can actively trigger to express their bigotry.

[In Exile]

By the way, didn't Gaider or Weeks themselves say at one at the events between ME3 and DAI how important it was for people to understand their perspectives were always "I think..." and never "I know" or something of the sort? Understand they're always one voice of many and that it's always a subjective opinion?

I remember watching a panel and a staff member clearly saying that. I guess that only applies when it's convenient for them.

Well, that sort of hypocrisy seems to be increasing part and parcel of BioWare.

What does this even mean? "I think transgendered characters should exist in media and I'll include them" is only controversial for people whose IRL beliefs are pretty repugnant.

And as I've said repeatedly: Krem had a more integrated role in the plot than either of Dagna or Harding. It's just unjustified to say that Krem is in any way a token character. That's different - of course - from criticism of how PW handled the scene with the Charges. But all of the criticism of it just about how there was no option to be prejudiced instead of focusing on entirely legitimate criticisms (like e.g. there was no logic to the prompting of the topic of Krem's gender identity and even talking about "binding" light be meaningless).

[Darkstarr11]

I'm still jazzed about the idea that Hawke survived.  

 

AHEM.  Anyway, suddenly the Keep makes SO MUCH more sense...AND gives us an idea of what might have been cut from the game.  Architect?  Check.  Saving Nathaniel?  Hmmm...Ohgren, and drinking the blood potion from Soldiers Keep.  Wonder how that was going to play out.  At least it makes me think that it WAS going to be in there.  Maybe got cut for pacing?  Or it was buggy?  OR will be added in a future DLC?  There is a lot there.

[Amirit]

That is fine. The thing is though, all of those examples are fictional. They let us explore reality through metaphor. There would be no point having the option to be a bigoted sexist jerk for the sake of pleasing bigoted sexist jerks, while at the same time, it wouldn't make sense within the story.

 

This is a very weird argument. So, selling companions to slavery is fine - it's fictional, murdering them is fine too - it's fictional. But any negative reaction to their sexuality is somehow real? Trans-gender nature of Krem is made part of the story with many dialog options. It is not less relevant than anything else. So, why is it Ok to kill Krem but absolutely no-go to negatively remark on transgender? 

 

Seriously, use another argument. 

[Sah291]

That is fine. The thing is though, all of those examples are fictional. They let us explore reality through metaphor. There would be no point having the option to be a bigoted sexist jerk for the sake of pleasing bigoted sexist jerks, while at the same time, it wouldn't make sense within the story.

Well, I guess it comes down to how people like to play their RPGs I guess. I try not to self insert (much) and try to make choices based on what I think my character would make, or by what makes for an interesting story. But I know other people do, and I can see how they might not see the point in playing a character with flaws. I don't think they should put in an option like that, just for the sake of pleasing some minority of bigoted jerks IRL, no. I just wouldn't want to see them get so wrapped up in a fear of offending (in general), that the story ceases to be about anything. DA has always been great at making fans think, and at telling a story and showing an issue from multiple perspectives.

[fizzypop]

To what end? Well, example: The Iron Bull seems to take offense to the Inquisitor calling Krem "she", and makes a ridiculous argument about "normal". I'm just saying the Inquisitor should be able to retort in disagreement. Conversation ends, The Iron Bull Disapproves. Done. Far more civil than murder-knifing an elven servant at Ostagar for no reason.

 

It's benign now, but it seems Weeks is promising to amp it up... not quite to 11 yet, but toward it.

 

No, but you can make an elf who hates humans. Just like you can make a character who hates the Chantry. The thing is, all of our humans thus far, have been noble... or noble-ish at least. The Amell mage and Hawke. Both know about prejudice because mages and templars, so they are unlikely to be prejudice. Other than that, Couslands, good folks. Trevelyans, good folks.  

 

I don't think telling part of a consumer base to "shoo" is good business. Sorry. Yeah, problem solved for the ones who toss the series. Problem had for the shareholders, and thus the writers.

 There is a difference with Elves hating humans. Elves are marginalized in the DA world. I don't find that an issue because they are a minority group pissed off for being enslaved and treated like trash. This is the same for transgender. They are marginalized in the real world. They are more likely to be MURDERED for being who they are. So no I don't think it is okay to include transphobic dialogue so you can be a bigot in a fictional world. Further marginalizing them. Yeah in this case it is completely okay to tell a consumer base to freaking shoo and a lot of other not so nice things. I may hate the way bioware has treated the DA series, but respect the hell out of them for providing lgbtq representation without pandering to bigots.

[fizzypop]

This is a very weird argument. So, selling companions to slavery is fine - it's fictional, murdering them is fine too - it's fictional. But any negative reaction to their sexuality is somehow real? Trans-gender nature of Krem is made part of the story with many dialog options. It is not less relevant than anything else. So, why is it Ok to kill Krem but absolutely no-go to negatively remark on transgender? 

 

Seriously, use another argument. 

Tell me why we should have bigotry that translates to real world hatred in a video game. I don't think people quite get that if you validate bigotry and hate you continue a very real cycle that actually HARMS people. Putting that kind of thing in a video game doesn't seem like a big deal until you realize you are validating that it is okay to hate someone because they are trans. Murder itself isn't a hate crime. Slavery itself is not a hate crime. They could be hate crimes if the motive was hatred for specific gender, skin color, or sexuality. However, they are not by themselves hate crimes. Our main characters motives aren't about bigotry. Being transphobic or homophobic IS. There is a the damn difference and it isn't hard to see. Also I was 100% against the ability to sell Fenris back into slavery.

[AresKeith]

So how about the other parts of the interview?

[BioWareMod01]

Hello everyone. The tone of this thread has quickly become hostile. Please keep discussion civil so the thread can remain open. Thank you.