Bioware said DA:O was HEAVILY INFLUENCED by GRRM's book. That was their own words. That is what I am getting at. Just pointing out where you can see similarities. Blatant similarities.
Saying that something is heavily influenced/inspired as something is different from accusing someone of doing a hack-job or ripping ideas off.
Or dragons returning. Or an ancient/forgotten threat attacking. Or walls or other huge/impressive constructs meant to protect from either this ancient threat or something else. O kings dying early and leaving bastards. Et caetera, et caetera...
Plenty books have those. But very very very few have all those at once. And since Bioware stated they had taken plenty influence from some books that have all those? And DA ends up having all of those?
Saying that something is heavily influenced/inspired as something is different from accusing someone of doing a hack-job or ripping ideas off.
"Heavily influenced by" is just a nicer way of saying "We ripped some ideas off".
Or dragons returning. Or an ancient/forgotten threat attacking. Or walls or other huge/impressive constructs meant to protect from either this ancient threat or something else. O kings dying early and leaving bastards. Et caetera, et caetera...
Plenty books have those. But very very very few have all those at once. And since Bioware stated they had taken plenty influence from some books that have all those? And DA ends up having all of those?
Lord of the Rings has all of those, too.
Except for dragons, I guess. Otherwise, though.
They were certainly influenced by his books for the tone of the setting, but anything more than that is a stretch.
DA is like ASoIF in that both take advantage of a great many common fantasy tropes and try inverting some of them, but the tropes they use in common are common to many fantasy works. Even then, the way they implement them is substantially different. You have to reduce both to incredibly broad strokes to call it a "hack job" of his work.
They were certainly influenced by his books for the tone of the setting, but anything more than that is a stretch.
DA is like ASoIF in that both take advantage of a great many common fantasy tropes and try inverting some of them, but the tropes they use in common are common to many fantasy works. Even then, the way they implement them is substantially different. You have to reduce both to incredibly broad strokes to call it a "hack job" of his work.
It was basically ASOIAF in a Tolkien world. The Warden oath is basically just the Night's Watch oath after a re-write.
"Heavily influenced by" is just a nicer way of saying "We ripped some ideas off".
Only to those who have no idea what 'influence/inspiration' and what 'ripping off' ideas actually is. As someone who does art for a living and deals with intellectual property issues frequently, believe me, I know very well which one's which.
Lord of the Rings has all of those, too.
Except for dragons, I guess. Otherwise, though.
No Night's Watch in it. Orks weren't something that had been gone for centuries. Blood magic. No bastards (Aragorn was well known and not a bastard). No wall.
Only to those who have no idea what 'influence/inspiration' and what 'ripping off' ideas actually is. As someone who does art for a living and deals with intellectual property issues frequently, believe me, I know very well which one's which.
There is a threshold, really. Funny you should mention it, though. Since I also make a living from art. Writing books and whatnot, for the most part. So that argument is rather mute.
The fact that it doesn't take place in a world like ASoIF already distances itself from the idea that its just a "hack job" of GRRM's books
Did the Grey Wardens take inspiration from the Night's Watch? Sure. Is "Night's Watch expy" an accurate description of the order? Even in DAO? Only in a vague and general way.
Its the same as saying, "Ferelden has a civil war, so its clearly ripping off Westeros", but it doesn't hold up if you stop talking in overly generalized terms.
Also, the comparison between Ostagar and the Wall is extremely tenuous.
No Night's Watch in it. Orks weren't something that had been gone for centuries. Blood magic. No bastards (Aragorn was well known and not a bastard). No wall.
Ok, but Sauron was. Minas Tirith is as analogous to the wall as Ostagar is, certainly, and supplies equivalent throne drama, in any event. I think rangers fill a similar enough role to Night's Watch or wardens. Which also, isn't significantly different from the concept of witchers (bringing it back around).
Magic is weird in any case. Neither ASoIF nor LoTR has magic like DA does. Frankly, I don't see too much overlap with blood magic.
The fact that it doesn't take place in a world like ASoIF already distances itself from the idea that its just a "hack job" of GRRM's books
Did the Grey Wardens take inspiration from the Night's Watch? Sure. Is "Night's Watch expy" an accurate description of the order? Even in DAO? Only in a vague and general way.
Its the same as saying, "Ferelden has a civil war, so its clearly ripping off Westeros", but it doesn't hold up if you stop talking in overly generalized terms.
Also, the comparison between Ostagar and the Wall is extremely tenuous.
All these alone doesn't make it a hack job. But all of them combined, and almost in exactly the same way GRRM did it, is pushing it.
Ok, but Sauron was. Minas Tirith is as analogous to the wall as Ostagar is, certainly, and supplies equivalent throne drama, in any event.
Magic is weird in any case. Neither ASoIF nor LoTR has magic like DA does. Frankly, I don't see too much overlap with blood magic.
Sauron had been gone for 60 years (he shows up during the hobbit the first time). Minas Tirith is just a city. It doesn't block the orks from doing anything. They can easily go around the city. The goal is to destroy all men, and men happen to be inside the city. If anything, Minas Tirith is more like Winterfell.
Magic exactly like in ASoIF and Lotr wouldn't translate well into a game, though. Both series are really not that magic heavy (when it comes to spells etc).
Blood magic is more powerful the more you use. Killing someone via blood magic seems to really boost things. Both are very very evil and hush hush. But yes. Blood magic isn't completely the same in the game. But as I said, it is the grand total of many elements being put together in a certain way, and they are put together mostly the same way GRRM put them together.
The result, however, works really well. By all means. Just saying the simmilarities are rather glaring at times.
Actually one could argue that the Black Gate served a similar purpose to The Wall, in a sense. It was constructed by Sauron, but manned by Gondor in the period prior to his return, centuries, to keep the evil within away from Gondor. They even built additions to the gate and built new towers like Cirith Ungol. Eventually they failed, though that was only referenced in the books.
Prior to showing up in Mirkwood incognito, Sauron had been gone and thought defeated for about a thousand years, still thought defeated seeing as nobody knew it was him, so he certainly qualifies as the ancient evil returned. If anything the darkspawn and the Archdemon owe more to JRRT than GRRM.
I think its more than a stretch to say that DAO used its elements in exactly the same way as ASoIF..
Give me a long moment and I'll see if I can drum up a comparison list between the Grey Wardens and the Night's Watch including a comparison between the Darkspawn and the Others alias White Walkers.
The Grey Wardens & The Night's Watch
This comparison will draw from the Dragon Age Wikipedia and the A Song of Ice and Fire as well as the Game of Thrones Wikipedia. If any mistakes are made then feel free and unguilty about expressing the correction.
Purpose
The purpose of the Night's Watch is to hold and guard the Wall against the White Walkers and the Free Folk as well as whatever whatever strength they may muster. They scout and patrol beyond the Wall even in times of Summer. They alarm the realms when they believe the White Walkers are walking.They do not wish to involve themselves in matters not pertaining to their purpose especially things of a political nature.
The purpose of the Grey Warden is to fight darkspawn throughout Thedas and to play a crucial role during Blights. They scout and patrol the Deep Roads even outside of Blights, sometimes in collaboration with the Legion of the Dead. They alarm Thedas when they believe a Blight is about to occur. They do not wish to involve themselves in matters not pertaining to their purpose especially things of a political nature.
Recruitment
The Night's Watch recruit only people of the male gender and their recruits are of all sorts from murders, rapers, thieves to bastards, nobles, farmers, beggars and bakers. It is considered a punishment to join the Night's Watch. They take whoever is willing and whoever the Crown admits. They do this because they need the numbers.
The Grey Wardens have the Right of Conscription which means that they may demand any individual from king to ciminal be drafted but they do sparingly make use of it to avoid reprisal though they do invoke it to draft from criminals. They only take those they deem capable and so do not simply recruit whoever is willing. They do this because they believe it increases the chance of survival for the recruits during their initiation ritual. They recruit people of both genders.
Initiation
The Night's Watch requires their recruits to "take the black" when they are considered ready to join the Night's Watch. This initiation has the recruits say the oath of the Night's Watch before either a heart tree or in a sept depending upon their faith. After they have sworn their oath, they are considered members of the Night's Watch. Their initiation ritual is considered no secret and has no mortality rate in itself. Members of the Night's Watch are encouraged to consider each other brothers.
The Grey Wardens requires their recruits to undergo the Joining when they are to join the Grey Wardens. This initiation has the recruits drink from a chalice containing a mixture of darkspawn blood, lyrium and a drop of blood from an archdemon. Their intiation ritual is considered a closely-guarded secret and has a high mortality rate in itself. Members of the Grey Warden may considered a fellow member of the order a brother or sister but are not encouraged to do so.
If a recruit survives, they will become immune to the Blight taint and will eventually be linked to the darkspawn hive mind, which allows them to detect the presence of darkspawn. As a consequence, however, they will also suffer from bad but sometimes prophetic reams, ravenous hunger for a period following the Joining, decreased fertility and a shortened lifespan due to the corruptive properties of the Joining. After roughly thirty years, they will begin to hear the Calling otherwise known as "the song" like the darkspawn do which means the taint has advanced far enough in their bodies that they'll begin to be corrupted into ghouls. The Calling will usually culminate in the Grey Warden in question venturing into the Deep Roads and dying in a last battle against the darkspawn.
Uniforms
The Night's Watch are garbed in black, a tradition which has earned them the nickname "crows". While some use it derogatorily, many in the Night's Watch have adopted the term for their own use. They are also called "the black brothers" and in song, they've been called the "black knights of the Wall". The uniform seems to be mandatory.
The Grey Wardens are garbed in a uniform with blue and white being primary colors. It is sometimes adorned with the sigil of a dual griffin. The Grey Wardens have no nicknames beyond a shortening of their name to "Warden(s)" or "The Grey". The uniform does not seem to be mandatory.
Oath & Motto
The Night's Watch's vows are; "Night gathers, and now my Watch Begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realm of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all nights to come."
It is customary to finish a black brother's eulogy with the words: "And now his watch is ended"
The Grey Warden motto is; "In Peace, Vigilance. In War, Victory. In Death, Sacrifice."
They also have traditional words that are spoken before a Joining commenses. These words are "Join us, brothers and sister. Join us in the shadows where we stand vigilant. Join us as we carry the duty that can not be forsworn. And should you perish, know that your sacrifice will not be forgotten. And that one day we shall join you."
There seems to be no customary finish to a Grey Warden's euology.
Restrictions
The members of the Night's Watch disavow marriage, land ownership, children and any heritage they are in line to herit. The penalty for desertion is execution.
The members of the Grey Warden does not disavow marriage or children. Whether they are allowed to claim their inheritence seems to depend upon what their inheritence is. The penalty for desertion seems to be ambigous.
Holdings
--In Progress--
As a note, I'll be writing the "The White Walkers & The Darkspawn" comparison in a separate post.
As a personal and opinionated note; so far, the "blatant" similarities seems to thin and disappear the closer someone looks at each of the orders. While they may have taken influence from the books of George R.R Martin, I consider the differences between the Night's Watch and the Grey Warden as illustrated so far in the above post as showing that they created and developed something of their own that may be inspired but does not plagiarise from George R.R Martin's book series.
The Darkspawn & The White Walkers (otherwise known as the Others)
This comparison will draw from the Dragon Age Wikipedia and from the A Song of Ice and Fire as well as Game of Thrones Wikipedia. If you notice anything you consider a mistake, feel free and unguilty to ask for correction. This will contain spoilers from the fifth season of the HBO's adaptation "Game of Thrones". The sections containing spoilers are: Origin, Leadership and Vulnerabilities & Strengths.
Name
The white walkers are referred to as such by wildlings otherwise known as the free folk but are known as the Others to those south of the Wall.
The darkspawn are referred to as such by most of Thedas though individual languages may have their own name for them as among the Avvar they were known as night-gangers.
Origin
The white walkers have no known and confirmed origin but there are those who attribute them certain origins and allegiances.
According to Melisandre of Assai, the Others are servants of a deity called the Great Other, who is the god of darkness, ice and death. This Great Other is locked in eternal warfare with R'hllor, the of of light, fire and life.
According to legend, the Night's King was a legendary commander of the Night's Watch who lived during the Age of Heroes. He was the thirteenth Lord Commander and considered to be fearless. He fell in love with a woman "with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars". He chased her and it is said that as he gave her his seed, he gave her his soul as well. He brought her back the Nightfort and declared himself king and her his queen, ruling the Nightfort as his Castle for thirteen years. Horrific atrocities were said to have taken place and after his fall, it was discovered he had been making sacrifices to the Others. Because of her appearance, som fan theories has linked the Night's Queen to the white walkers because of her appearance and a recent appearance in the television episode "Hardhome" as well as a leaked name has lend credence to the Night's King connection to the White Walkers.
According to legend, the Others first appear during the time in which peace reigned in Westeros due to the Pact between the Children of the Forest and the First Men. Because of this, they were unprepared for the scale of the invasion. It is said that the Others' arrival were preceded by a Winter that lasted a generation and a period of darkness known as the Long Night, although it is unclear if this is a literal period of darkness lasting years or merely an artistic term. The Others' ability to resurrect the dead as wrights made them nearly unbeatable but after a long and grueling war, they were pushed back and salvation finally came in the discovery of obsidian which could slay the Others. In the War for Dawn, Azor Azhai wielding a sword of fire called Lightbringer led a crusade that turned back the Others and banished them into the uttermost North. Brandon Stark then built a huge wall of ice to prevent the Others from coming south again aided by the Children of the Forest who made it so that the Others could not leave the north by passing the Wall. It is said, however, that their wrights can. This origin has the white walkers appearing from nowhere to cause devastation upon man.
The darkspawn have no fully known and confirmed origin but it appears some of the origin attributed them by the Chantry has some credence as an ancient, sapient darkspawn emissary named Corypheus was discovered by Hawke and his companions. Corypheus claimed he was a magister of the ancient Tevinter Imperium who, with an unspecificed number of other magisters entered the mythical Golden City only to find it black and devoid of the Maker they were expecting to find. Some of his comments of piercing the heavens could be used to lend credence to the interpretation that their attempt involved entering the Fade while awake, thereby piercing the veil and bringing themselves physically into the world of spirits and dreams where a floating black city is sometimes observed to be. His references to Dumat in his initial introduction may suggest their attempt were influenced by an outside force.
According to the Chantry, the darkspawn were created when the magisters of the Tevinter Imperium opened a portal into the Golden City, tainting the realm of the Maker with their corruption and returning as the first darkspawn, their evil transfiguring them into the monsters they became. The First Blight begun as a result of the magisters growing in numbers and digging Down into the earth until they became upon the resting place of the Old God Dumat believed to have been imprisoned there. Freed from his prison and warped by the taint, Dumat became the first Archdemon and began the First Blight. The Chantry thusly believe that it was the hubris of man that caused the creation of the darkspawn.
According to the dwarves, the darkspawn simply appeared underground and their invasion of the Deep Roads ended up crippling the once great dwarven empire, leaving only Orzammar and Kal'Sharok, the latter of which became completely isolated from the outside world for a long period.
According to the magisters of the Tevinter Imperium, they deny that any ancient citizens holding the title of magister were involved in starting the first Blight. They claim the darkspawn have always existed and the magisters have no connection to them.
Leadership
The white walkers is led by a white walker known as the Night's King who was once the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Beyond gathering and leading his army south, his end goal and motivations are unknown.
The darkspawn are led by a darkspawn known as an Archdemon. Each of these Archdemons are believed to have once been one of the Old Gods of Tevinter until freed and corrupted by the darkspawn in its underground prison that lies somewhere in the Deep Roads. Beyond uniting the darkspawn through the use of it's blight-calling referred to as the song and marching its armies upward towards the surface, its end goal and motivations are unknown.
Intelligence
The white walkers display an intelligence at the very least equal to that of a man while their wrights are said to have rudimentary intelligence. With Hardhome in mind, the white walkers seem to have a grasp of psychological warfare and an ability coordinate on a larger scale as well as have their wrights employ stealth tactics. They seem to be able to construct buildings of larger as seen with their ice fortress and construct weaponry as seen with their blades.
The darkspawn display a very limited intellience and seem to lack a sense of coordination without the addition of an Archdemon to their hivemind. The average darkspawn is said to possesses no intelligence beyond that of a simple animal's cunning and most are unable to communicate in anything but roars and grunts. Archdemons, emissaries as well as hurlock vanguards are able to communicate albeit more to each other than in any language comprehensible to non-darkspawn. Some veterans of the Grey Wardens, however, claim to be able to understand parts of the Archdemon's speech in their dreams.
They seem to rely primarily on numbers to the difference in combat.They seem to lack the focus or ability to build homes, instead they seem to be only able to construct primitive armour, weaponry and fortifications. They seem to scavenge as well. Without an Archdemon, the darkspawn's focus is primarily on expanding the horde and killing those they do not convert.
The Archdemons possess an intelligence far beyond the average dragon and is able to coordinate the otherwise chaotic darkspawn into a vast army capable of threatening kingdoms by using the hive-mind. It is able to do this even if it is not in the presence of the darkspawn it is commanding. It is supposed by some that the transformation into an Archdemon, drives the Old God mad though others believe beings such as it is beyond understanding.
"Reproduction" & Reproduction
The white walkers can transform the living into white walkers and the dead into wrights. This applies to animals as well and they appear able to control the animals as they do humanoids. They do not appear to be able to reproduce.
The darkspawn can turn the living into darkspawn but cannot affect the dead. This applies to animals as well though they do appear to be able to control tainted animals. They are able to reproduce by taking female members of different races and force them to undergo a procedure involving repeated "violations", taint exposure and forced cannibalism until they become a special kind of darkspawn known as a broodmother which is able to birth darkspawns.
Appearance
The white walkers have the appearance of tall, slim humanoid with cold blue eyes and chalk white skin. They wear reflective armor and wield, thin crystal swords. The wights have a corpse-like appearance but shared the characteristic of cold blue eyes.
The darkspawn have the appearance of mutated humanoids with ghoulish features like exposed teeth. Their appearance overal differs between the different types of darkspawn with ogres surpassing the kossith in terms of the size of their bodies and horns and shrieks becoming slimmer with more elongated faces. Their skin varies from genlock to shriek with some being an type of yellow to others being a type of grey. Darkspawn appear to have no hair regardless of which race they originally were. The Archdemon have the appearance of a high dragon albeit a far more skeletal version which hides appear to be a dark shade of purple.
Vulnerabilities & Strengths
The white walkers are impervious to damage from any weapon or material not of obsidian or valyrian steel. Any blow from either "dragonglass" or "dragonsteel" causes the white walkers to melt into ice water. The effect appears immediate. They are believed to be vulnerable to extremely hot fire such as that breathed by dragons and possibly to daylight but both of these, however likely, are currently unconfirmed. At least one white Walker, known as the Night's King, seems to be capable of magic as demonstrated when he used it to seemingly turn a living infant into a white walker and later when he raised the dead of Hardhome into wrights.
The darkspawn are pervious to damage from any weapon or material. Some darkspawn seem to be capable of some sorts of magic. which is due to the darkspawn taint also carrying magical power equivalent to lyrium allowing darkspawn units known as emissaries to cast spells even those who appear to have once been dwarves. The magic is believed to be unique and referred to as "blight magic".
The world's perception
The white walkers are considered to be folk figures from stories and nothing more by most of Westeros with the exception of some in the Night's Watch and the free folk.
The darkspawn are considered to be a real and legitimate threat by most of Thedas especially to the remaining dwarven kingdom who are in constant battle with them to keep and reclaim territory.
All this GoT talk made me curious enough to look up what the heck a White Walker is. I think I might give GoT a try afterall.
All this GoT talk made me curious enough to look up what the heck a White Walker is. I think I might give GoT a try afterall.
Oh, I think you should. I can heartily recommend both the television adaption and the books. I should note, however, that the white walkers are not the predominant focus of the series and only makes few appearances in the seasons. When they are on-screen and makes their appearance like in Hardhome? Oh boy, they are awesome and frightening.
All this GoT talk made me curious enough to look up what the heck a White Walker is. I think I might give GoT a try afterall.
I would just read the books tbh, the show is basically bad fanfiction at this point.
I would just read the books tbh, the show is basically bad fanfiction at this point.
Not exactly. The show has finally caught up with the books. The author announced that he wouldn't have time to write for the show in the future and would be withdrawing from some convention appearances so he could double down on actually getting the books finished some time in the next decade.Uncertain if the show is good or not, but believe I read the author is no longer on board for the ride, so it is fan-fiction.
Not exactly. The show has finally caught up with the books. The author announced that he wouldn't have time to write for the show in the future and would be withdrawing from some convention appearances so he could double down on actually getting the books finished some time in the next decade.
"After wrestling with it for a month or so, I've decided not to script an episode for season six of Game of Thrones. Writing a script takes me three weeks, minimum, and longer when it is not a straight adaption from the novels. And really, it would cost me more time than that, since I have never been good at changing gears from one medium to another and back again. Writing a season six script would cost me a month's work on Winds ("Winds of Winter"), and maybe as much as six weeks, and I cannot afford that. With David Benioff, D.B. Weiss, and Bryan Cogman on board, the scriptwriting chores for season six should be well covered. My energies are best devoted to winds." - George R.R. Martin.
Mr. Martin has apparently also said that he would like to have "The Winds of Winter" finished by 2016 so he is devoting his energy to that goal. He provided the "Game of Thrones" writers with some spoilers since season five ran ahead on some of the plotlines in the book. I do hope he is not feeling pressured by it all.
Oh God, yes, please, Mr. Martin, I've been waiting FOREVER for the next book.....
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