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Fallout 4: Male only. Story focused. Might not have character creation/customization.


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#201
In Exile

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On a serious note, would've been funny if the male-only leak was real. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if some elements of that post turned out to be true. In any case, a voiced protagonist doesn't fit Fallout. It's a mistake that Bethesda made with the personal story of Fallout 3 too. It's indicative of Bethesda not getting the setting at all.

The story is not primarily about the player character. It never has, it never should be. The impact a personal narrative for the protagonist should happen only after the player is emotionally invested, not when it's thrust upon you. Likewise, the bombs falling doesn't demonstrate the brutality of war. It's just the backstory, there's no motif to drive home by focusing on the bombs.

Fallout is a story about the world and society, with the player character as a conduit for the player. It's not a complete blank slate as all the protagonists have defined pasts and backgrounds. But the general idea is to make the player character the agent of change in the setting. The person who disrupts the status quo, without being lauded or recognised for it.

This goes back to the central theme of Fallout. "War never changes". Bethesda has taken that to mean that history repeats itself. Which is true, but the core lesson to take from the phrase isn't that history repeats endlessly, it's that history repeats endlessly because people don't change. Human nature won't ever change. That is the key component that Bethesda is unable to understand, especially with their heavy handed approach to morality.

And that's where the player character comes in. That's why moral dilemmas are the trademark of Fallout, because it's a challenge to the player character (and the player by extension), to see how and if they can change human nature with their actions.

It's why irony and dark humour permeates the setting, it's why they juxtapose the clean 50s retro visual style with violent atrocities. It's all cues to tell the player that no matter how we build society, man is a vicious, selfish, warlike animal when pushed into the right circumstances. No matter how civilised we aim to be, we are beasts at the core.

And the various factions that spring up over the course of the series are answers to solving that problem. The Master's Unity in F1 saw the answer in evolution and genetic ascension (the Super Mutants). Fallout 2's Enclave saw themselves as the true heirs to humanity, and found their answer in suppression and authoritarian control of the impure. The BoS saw the answer in isolation and pursuit of knowledge, eschewing external power structures. The NCR saw the answer in democracy and expansionism through trade. That society would be best served by Old World values. And Caesar's Legion saw the answer in Old World values too, just different ones. Integration and societal cohesion through totalitarian conquest. Side note, the irony of Caesar is that he formed his Empire on the basis that ideology is stronger than any one man, but what actually holds the Legion together isn't shared ideology, it's held together by their faith in him.

Many quests in the series deal with issues like this on the smaller level. For example, there are plenty of settlements in a position where they need leadership, and the player, as the agent of change, is poised to push people in the direction (s)he chooses. But these settlements don't exist in a vacuum (yet another aspect Bethesda doesn't understand), what affects one place will affect everything else. Fallout is about society after all. So when players are put into those positions where they may decide the fate of an entire town, they had to take into account the greater conflict and what kind of interplay it could cause for the whole region and how that changes the ending.

The player is constantly made aware of the contrast between the Old World and the New World, and how one led to the other. As they explore the game world and make moral decisions in quests, they're constantly being asked "is this the right choice?" "can you do better?" "do you even want to do better?"

It forces you to examine your choices from the perspective of actually being in a post apocalyptic shithole. Morality isn't just black and white. There's more than enough gray to cover the Wasteland like a blanket. Again, another Bethesda failing because they don't get that.

So how is any of that relevant to a voiced protagonist? Is it relevant at all? It's tangentially related. In order to hammer home all these high minded ideas about society and human nature, Fallout gives the player an incredibly large range of interactions with the gameworld as a means of immersing the player. AKA encouraging roleplaying. The Wasteland is a dirty, gritty and quirky place showcasing the best and worst of humanity. The player character is no exception.

You can be a Slaver, a Drug Addict, a Porn Star, you can get married, you can impregnate mob matriarchs, and seduce people to kill them in their sleep. You can say and do all sorts of things if you are roleplaying that kind of character. The best thing is that all these actions are optional side content that are structured around your skills and attributes. Hell, in Vegas you could yell at people in dialogue and make them flee combat if you had the right Perk. You could roleplay as a literal loudmouth.

A voiced protagonist demands a lot of resources, and the first thing to be cut would be the little side content. We've already seen the Low INT dialogue of the first two Fallouts go, I doubt there will be very many branching conversation checks outside of INT and Barter. That's what Fallout 3 did, and Fallout 4 will probably be worse. So if you enjoyed the small touches like light hearted lesbian banter between Cass and the Courier based on your perk selection, prepare for disappointment. The end result is an experience where the player character feels more akin to a tourist than someone truly apart of the world. It works in Elder Scrolls because you are literally the chosen one of legends but it doesn't work in a jaded setting like Fallout. Even when you play as the Chosen One, it's semi satirical. No one really gives a **** about your backwards tribal customs outside of Arroyo.

Individually, these aren't game breaking problems. Having a voiced protagonist doesn't mean a game is crap. Having black and white morality doesn't mean a game is crap. Having a protagonist that is put on a pedestal doesn't make a game crap. In other games, they could be key contributors to a game being good. But all of these quibbles, along with many others (like how they approached the lore) paints a very clear picture. That Bethesda has absolutely no understanding of the Fallout franchise and what makes it tick. They might make a game with visually striking environments, plenty of inteteresting exploration, an adorable animal companion and a cool crafting mechanic. So there's no denying that Bethesda can potentially make a very fun game.

But they don't understand Fallout, and people who claim F3 is a better Fallout game than NV because the former is in a visually striking Wasteland and the latter is in a boring looking desert, they don't really understand Fallout either. That's fine. Not everyone is going to be a sperg like me and write paragraphs on VIDEO GAME SETTINGS and there's nothing wrong with liking Bethesda's Fallout in the first place. But it does #trigger me when I see people claim that F3 is a better Fallout game because it's simply not true.

 

It's a clever thesis, but where you're wrong is in the dialogue. Fallout doesn't give you particularly varied or notable dialogue, and it certainly doesn't give you the kind of rich dialogue you've based your analysis of the PC in the gameworld on. New Vegas is a great example of this bit. You get a bit of flavour dialogue outside of skill checks, but then the fundamental driver is the skill check. 

 

But that being said I do actually think VO is a lot less useful in how Bestheda games work, because they are incapable and totally disinterested in any kind of meaningful personal interaction with characters. Aside from POE, Obsidian writes in this way too - they don't let you express personality, you're either letting fly with morals or using a skillcheck. Even POE is like that - the "disposition" dialogue is heavily tied to morality (e.g. Passionate is typically angry good). 



#202
Giantdeathrobot

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If they really go towards the route of having us play a generic dude instead of allowing customization, I have even less reasons to buy the game. Fixed protagonists work in RPGs if 1) you have the writing skills to pull it off and/or 2) if the character already exists and has an interesting personality. Bethesda don't really have a set character that could go protagonist route, and I don't believe they have the writing skills to pull it off.

 

No wait, scratch that. I'll be honest; Bethesda simply doesn't have the skill to do this. Obsidian/Black Isle could, in PS:T. CDPR could in The Witcher, with the help of Geralt and his friends being already fleshed out. But these studios are leagues ahead of Beth when it comes to writing. Thus I expect a, gruff middle-aged white dude with probably a revenge story of some description. Like in, say, Dying Light. With all the extreme bore such an approach brings.

 

Not to mention this does not bode well for other aspects of character customization, skill as SPECIAL attributes and skills, if they're ready to remove something as simple as a gender choice. Bethesda has already shown they can't design a good system to save their life, they may have axed such things altogether.



#203
Morroian

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If they really go towards the route of having us play a generic dude instead of allowing customization, I have even less reasons to buy the game. Fixed protagonists work in RPGs if 1) you have the writing skills to pull it off and/or 2) if the character already exists and has an interesting personality. Bethesda don't really have a set character that could go protagonist route, and I don't believe they have the writing skills to pull it off.

 

Its already been said that the rumour was incorrect. Its in the other thread on FO4.



#204
Killdren88

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I wonder if the reaction would different if it was a set Female protag the outrage would be the same. Or would it be misogynistic to disagree if it was the opposite of what it is now.

#205
Fast Jimmy

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I wonder if the reaction would different if it was a set Female protag the outrage would be the same. Or would it be misogynistic to disagree if it was the opposite of what it is now.

 

It would be hailed as hugely progressive and a sign of developers finally beginning to understand female gamers...

 

 

...until male romance options are revealed, then it would be "Bethesda sexualizes women, what a bunch of mysoginists."


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#206
ObserverStatus

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I wonder if the reaction would different if it was a set Female protag the outrage would be the same. Or would it be misogynistic to disagree if it was the opposite of what it is now.

The reaction would be even worse. Doing that would tick off the people who believe that character creation is a critical piece of the Fallout experience, *and* the antisocial injustice warriors.


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#207
Rawgrim

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Is this 100 percent confirmed, though? Or is it just a rumor?



#208
TheJediSaint

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Is this 100 percent confirmed, though? Or is it just a rumor?

The claim in the title is almost certainly BS.



#209
ObserverStatus

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Is this 100 percent confirmed, though? Or is it just a rumor?

Pretty sure its bunk, most of the things that this supposed leaker said that turned out to be true were also present in casting documents Kotaku unveiled months earlier.



#210
Rawgrim

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Not sure why Bethesda would remove character customization from any of their rpgs, really. It doesn't make sense.



#211
Decepticon Leader Sully

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Is this 100 percent confirmed, though? Or is it just a rumor?

Dude its Trolling at its most obvious its a part of the #GAMESARESOWHITE or whatever it is called.



#212
SlottsMachine

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Personally I think they should just make the protagonist Gary, and to make things simple for the voiced protagonist all the dialogue is also Gary. 

 

Haha. Garryyyy!

 


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#213
SmilesJA

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It would be hailed as hugely progressive and a sign of developers finally beginning to understand female gamers...

 

 

...until male romance options are revealed, then it would be "Bethesda sexualizes women, what a bunch of mysoginists."

 

Or "Where are my female romance options Bethesda???!!!!! You're homophobic!!!!"



#214
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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It's a clever thesis, but where you're wrong is in the dialogue. Fallout doesn't give you particularly varied or notable dialogue, and it certainly doesn't give you the kind of rich dialogue you've based your analysis of the PC in the gameworld on. New Vegas is a great example of this bit. You get a bit of flavour dialogue outside of skill checks, but then the fundamental driver is the skill check.


Interaction with the gameworld doesn't necessarily mean lots of dialog. It's not like you need to discuss exploitation and the nature of entertainment at length when you become a porn star in F2.

Also,

The best thing is that all these actions are optional side content that are structured around your skills and attributes.



#215
In Exile

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Interaction with the gameworld doesn't necessarily mean lots of dialog. It's not like you need to discuss exploitation and the nature of entertainment at length when you become a porn star in F2.

 

But your point was: 

 

A voiced protagonist demands a lot of resources, and the first thing to be cut would be the little side content. We've already seen the Low INT dialogue of the first two Fallouts go, I doubt there will be very many branching conversation checks outside of INT and Barter. That's what Fallout 3 did, and Fallout 4 will probably be worse. So if you enjoyed the small touches like light hearted lesbian banter between Cass and the Courier based on your perk selection, prepare for disappointment. The end result is an experience where the player character feels more akin to a tourist than someone truly apart of the world. It works in Elder Scrolls because you are literally the chosen one of legends but it doesn't work in a jaded setting like Fallout. Even when you play as the Chosen One, it's semi satirical. No one really gives a **** about your backwards tribal customs outside of Arroyo.

Individually, these aren't game breaking problems. Having a voiced protagonist doesn't mean a game is crap. Having black and white morality doesn't mean a game is crap. Having a protagonist that is put on a pedestal doesn't make a game crap. In other games, they could be key contributors to a game being good. But all of these quibbles, along with many others (like how they approached the lore) paints a very clear picture. That Bethesda has absolutely no understanding of the Fallout franchise and what makes it tick. They might make a game with visually striking environments, plenty of inteteresting exploration, an adorable animal companion and a cool crafting mechanic. So there's no denying that Bethesda can potentially make a very fun game.

 

Most of the content in a Fallout game isn't dialogue driven. Look at New Vegas: the vast majority of quests were the kind of archaeological dig through ruins, read a journal to figure out the history type plot. You did get interactions, however - but they were relatively barebones (cf. speaking with House, or Ceasar, or the varieyt of NCR or minor NPCs). To voice the PC wouldn't draw substantial resources away from the game, because those resources aren't substantial.

 

DA is a good example here, actually. Because the issue in DA:I wasn't that the PC was voiced: it's that there were lots of companions who were voiced. A good contrast is TW3 and the amount of side content available, notwithstanding the fact that the PC is voiced. Having two voices - one for each gender - will just not substantially impact the game in a meaningful way. 

 

I'll add this: to say that the Low INT options were just garbage is actually high praise. They were garbage because they weren't actually Low INT options: they were just nonsense hulkspeak options, capturing nothing of what it would mean to actually be so disadvantaged as to not be able to coherently speak. It's just a joke option, consistent with the setting only in the same way that everything else is a parody. 



#216
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Having two voices - one for each gender - will just not substantially impact the game in a meaningful way.


I made the point as apart of a greater post saying that Bethesda doesn't understand Fallout in general (which was really my overarching point) but I see where you're coming from and can't really argue that particular point in light of what Dragon Age has done. I'd still argue it takes a significant amount of resources, but you're probably right in that it wouldn't affect the quality of the end product in any meaningful way since we're dealing with a large studio that has plenty of money.

#217
In Exile

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I made the point as apart of a greater post saying that Bethesda doesn't understand Fallout in general (which was really my overarching point) but I see where you're coming from and can't really argue that particular point in light of what Dragon Age has done. I'd still argue it takes a significant amount of resources, but you're probably right in that it wouldn't affect the quality of the end product in any meaningful way since we're dealing with a large studio that has plenty of money.

 

Keep in mind I agree with you entirely on your thesis about what makes Fallout - the true Fallout, I mean, not what Bestheda did - a phenomenal series (albeit a bit in-keeping with the usual pattern of what Obsidian does nowadays story-wise). I don't disagree that there will be a resource investment in the VO; I just don't think the budget on PC VO is going to even add up to the man hours of all the bug-fixing Bestheda never does and leaves up to mods. 


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#218
Decepticon Leader Sully

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#219
Garryydde

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Don't forget to turn off that pesky adblock :^)

#220
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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Oh Matt, no matter how hard you try to put your avatar on her body, you'll never be a pretty woman like Yennefer~
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#221
Jester

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Just a quick update. Fallout 4 can be pre-ordered on Steam already. Might be the game isn't too far away at all.

This preordering stuff is getting out of hand.

I mean, they are selling a game, that they gave no information whatsoever about!

 

There's nothing apart from a non-gameplay trailer and a few screenshots. 

No release date. No gameplay. No information about the game's features. 

Nothing. 

 

Yet Steam is selling it, and even announces a sale for other Fallout games because of that.

What the hell.



#222
Iakus

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This preordering stuff is getting out of hand.

I mean, they are selling a game, that they gave no information whatsoever about!

 

There's nothing apart from a non-gameplay trailer and a few screenshots. 

No release date. No gameplay. No information about the game's features. 

Nothing. 

 

Yet Steam is selling it, and even announces a sale for other Fallout games because of that.

What the hell.

The mere fact that it's a Bethesda game makes preordering a bad idea to me.  Even liking the Fallout series.

 

Better wait a few months until enough patches are out that the game is actually playable  ;)



#223
Degenerate Rakia Time

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i preordered it the second it was available :P



#224
Akrabra

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I will probably pre-order after E3 and it will be the first game i pre-order since Skyrim. Bethesda has my loyalty, and i know that isn't smart, but they have never steered me wrong. 


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#225
Sekrev

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I will probably pre-order after E3 and it will be the first game i pre-order since Skyrim. Bethesda has my loyalty, and i know that isn't smart, but they have never steered me wrong. 

 

Horse armor dlc..


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