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[Lady Artifice]

Not everyone who criticizes the circle just wants to see it gone, Professor.

 

What gets my hackles up about this, is not so much the suggestion that the circle has its perks and its functions. It does. Mages need the protection that the templars and the circle provide in southern Thedas, as much from the mob as from demons. No, what gets to me is the implication that because there's a nice story about mages in the circle, and a retired templar defending their right to watch a play or indulge in artistic pursuits, this is evidence that any accusations of corruption or systemic prejudice in the circle are pure paranoid delusion, despite the fact that the rising dysfunction and tension of the circle in the time leading up to the rebellion is absolutely canonical. 

 

This letter is designed to show two sides of one coin. You have the retired templar urging the younger to relax, and referencing the existence of other templars, higher ranking templars, who approve of a more stringent approach to what activities the mages are permitted. This letter is also written before the canonical growing tensions within the system, and already it shows two entirely different approaches to the treatment of mages.

 

This letter does more to showcase the possible dichotomy and variations of circle life than it does prove that the circle mages are granted a cushy, enviable state of existence. 

[raging_monkey]

*appluads* well said arti why can't I ever convey my thoughts as such

[Lady Artifice]

*appluads* well said arti why can't I ever convey my thoughts as such

 

Because you're a much more patient and kind person than I am, and we need you--exactly as you are--to relieve the tension. 

[raging_monkey]

Because you're a much more patient and kind person than I am, and we need you--exactly as you are--to relieve the tension.

true perhaps I should start a club hehe

[Boost32]

Not everyone who criticizes the circle just wants to see it gone, Professor.

 

What gets my hackles up about this, is not so much the suggestion that the circle has its perks and its functions. It does. Mages need the protection that the templars and the circle provide in southern Thedas, as much from the mob as from demons. No, what gets to me is the implication that because there's a nice story about mages in the circle, and a retired templar defending their right to watch a play or indulge in artistic pursuits, this is evidence that any accusations of corruption or systemic prejudice in the circle are pure paranoid delusion, despite the fact that the rising dysfunction and tension of the circle in the time leading up to the rebellion is absolutely canonical. 

 

This letter is designed to show two sides of one coin. You have the retired templar urging the younger to relax, and referencing the existence of other templars, higher ranking templars, who approve of a more stringent approach to what activities the mages are permitted. This letter is also written before the canonical growing tensions within the system, and already it shows two entirely different approaches to the treatment of mages.

 

This letter does more to showcase the possible dichotomy and variations of circle life than it does prove that the circle mages are granted a cushy, enviable state of existence. 

I disagree with you, the only high ranking templar mentioned is a Knight Liutenant, there is no mention of others.

And it show us what mages have, not in any moment the templar in the letter says they had it, so to me the letter show us they have a cushy, enviable state of existence, specially if you compare their lives to a peasent.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Not everyone who criticizes the circle just wants to see it gone, Professor.

 

I am not speaking to mere criticism of the Circle. I am speaking more to the moralist- and outrage-mentality against it.

 

I mean, I criticize it, too. I defend it more, though. Why? Because I see more criticism against it that I find exaggerated more than defense of it that I find exaggerated. I mean, very few folks say the Circle is too lenient, while a great many see the entire thing as an atrocity, which indicates a great many only see it through one side.

[AtreiyaN7]

Personally, I don't see Circles as entirely bad or negative per se. They can be places of learning, and mages do need to be taught and properly trained. However, I think the main problem with the system (prior to DA:I) is that the templars got too full of themselves and ended up with far too much power concentrated in their hands.

 

Assuming that you're someone who is willing to take a more tolerant path and dial down all the Chantry rhetoric (where everyone seems to be taught that mages are bad and to be feared - including the mages themselves being taught to be afraid of their own powers), it's clearly possible for mages and templars to work together cooperatively and as equals. I think if people want to form the equivalent of mage colleges/modified Circles/whatever, fine - so long as templars are no longer functioning as jailors.

 

Templars still need to around to deal with abominations or mages who turn out to be psychotic loons or the odd Fade-related crisis, but at this point, I kind of think that mages who have proven themselves responsible after going through proper training should have their personal freedom and should be treated as human beings. Speaking of mage training and magic-related danger(s), I think JoH shows that Fade spirits are not necessarily going to turn every mage into a raging abominations IF the mages have received proper training.

 

Should reformed Circles become canon in any future DA games, I do think they need to be more open-minded and a bit less dogmatic. In other words, they should be willing to learn from Avvar mages or mages from other cultures/societies who have knowledge to impart (instead of thinking that they know it all, because they pretty clearly don't know it all). The DLC made me think that if Circle mages had received Avvar-style training with regards to Fade spirits, then maybe they would actually have been less vulnerable to becoming abominations.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Thing is, leaving him to starve to death shouldn't have happened whether he was filed as a criminal mage or not.

That is however a symptom of a larger problem in Thedas itself, and clamouring for the Circle to change its prison system, and not the entirety of Thedas' is pointless. Prison in Thedas, in general, is not a nice place to be. You aren't there to "serve your time", you are there to die.

[TheKomandorShepard]

First of all Chantry don't teach anyone to hate magic ,i rly love how people keep claming that chantry spreads hatred despite chantry calls magic gift and curse.From what i remember chantry teaches that magic is dangerous and that magisters went to the black city ,at this point those two are pretty much facts.

 

Second ,there is no such thing as proved mage ,no matter how many tests mage have passed they stay danger to the end of their lives.Even most competent , experienced or nicest mages can become victim of circumstances or own flaws.

 

Uldred was experienced mage yet he finished as abomnation because of his ambitions and pride.

Quentin became insane blood mage after his wife died.

Jowan could be nice and all but he reached for blood magic out of envy.

Corrypheus one of finest tevinter mages almost destroyed world few times because of his ambition nor he cared about that , hell in the end he even tried destroy world in his temper tantrum.

Alexius almost destroyed world because he wanted save his son.

 

And list goes on.

 

So ,you can be most competent mage in thedas yet end blowing up half of continent because you tried to save your sick daughter , become god ,avenge somone , make world a better place...

 

Also abuses aren't anything extraordinary they exist in Thedas (as well in our world) and everyone can become victim not only mages.

 

 

 

[The Baconer]

That is however a symptom of a larger problem in Thedas itself, and clamouring for the Circle to change its prison system, and not the entirety of Thedas' is pointless. Prison in Thedas, in general, is not a nice place to be. You aren't there to "serve your time", you are there to die.

 

There is no Thedosian prison system. But there is a Circle system with rules and regulations.

 

Cole's manner of imprisonment was acknowledged as an error, and the circumstances of his death were acknowledged as an error.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There is no Thedosian prison system. But there is a Circle system with rules and regulations.

 

Cole's manner of imprisonment was acknowledged as an error, and the circumstances of his death were acknowledged as an error.

No, there aren't any "prison system". That's the point. There are only dungeons in which they throw prisoners, and wait for them to die. So that Cole died in there, was not the error. It was the fact that he got in there in the first place, which was the error.

 

An error. They happen. Errors aren't symptoms of a malfunctioning system, they are just mishaps.

[Sifr]

There is no Thedosian prison system. But there is a Circle system with rules and regulations.

 

Except for Aeonar, which is explicitly referred to as being a maximum security prison for mages and other people who break the Chantry's laws. Even so, the Circle as an insitution definitely comes across as a prison, no matter how prettied up and lax the rules and regulations are treated in some places.

 

The inmates have committed no crime other than being an "undesirable" of the state and unless they're extremely lucky enough to escape, happen to suck up to the guards, get the ear of the Knight-Commander and/or First Enchanter, or find someone powerful in local government they're willing to spread for, they'll never get any kind of day-pass out and instead are going to be locked away for the rest of their natural life.

 

 

An error. They happen. Errors aren't symptoms of a malfunctioning system, they are just mishaps.

 

True, even the best system in the world can screw up from time to time.

 

But when you forget about someone you've locked in a prison cell for so long they actually die of starvation, you can't say that doesn't make it seem like the system needs people to take a good long look at it and see if they're doing all they can?

 

Cole's death was not a reason to abolish the system, but it was a reason to change things and make sure such a tragedy never happened again.

 

Instead, we got the opposite... the Templars chosing to close ranks and cover their own arses by erasing all evidence of the crime they committed. This further goes to reinforce the notion that there lies a degree of corruption within the order that permits Templars to get away with actual murder (well, involuntary manslaughter in this case) if they wish?

 

That's not to say that Templars are running around murdering, raping or pillaging at will, just that if they did, it seems that things have gotten to a point where people are far too willing to look the other way, rather than address that things really need to be changed to prevent these kinds of potential abuses of power?

 

Perhaps Templars need to learn the same responsibility they're always admonishing the Mages for lacking?

[Drasanil]

The inmates have committed no crime other than being an "undesirable" of the state and unless they're extremely lucky enough to escape, happen to suck up to the guards, get the ear of the Knight-Commander or find someone powerful in local government they're willing to spread for, they'll never get any kind of day-pass out and instead are going to be locked away for the rest of their natural life.

 

Ines

[Serelir]

That's not to say that Templars are running around murdering, raping or pillaging at will, just that if they did, it seems that things have gotten to a point where people are far too willing to look the other way, rather than address that things really need to be changed to prevent these kinds of potential abuses of power?

 

Codex text

The words in this note have many misspellings and are scrawled in a clumsy hand:

 

Some templars killed the mages. The mages ran. The templars wanted to run after them. A refugee was still burning. His arm went up to a templar. The templar used his sword. It went up and down. Up and down. There were pieces of black.

 

He stayed while other templars ran after mages. He took things from bodies. One body was moving. It had long hair and burned dress. The templar started to take off his armor and I shot him.

 

I went down to the lady. She made little noises and her eyes looked at me. Then she died.

 

I want it to go out of my head please Maker. I been good, I want it to go out of my head.

[Drasanil]

1) That's the nature of war, peasants always end up on the bad end of something when soldiers get their blood up. Because no matter how professional an army there are always bad eggs, still happens in modern times too. Some US Soldiers tossed puppies off cliffs for shits and giggles in Iraq and that's not even the worst of the bunch. Doesn't mean anyone condones their behaviour or that it is somehow representative of accepted behaviour writ large in an organisation. 

 

2) That the codex refers to the Hinterland templars who are deserters and are presented as a rogue element the moment you arrive in the Hinterlands. 

 

3) Funny you left in the flavour text at the top but cut out the bit in the middle where it mentions it was the mages that showed up and decided to indiscriminately set those peasants on fire. Misleading much? 

[MisterJB]

 

Ines

 

Not only her. Wynne and Finn and Rhys and Irving and Bethany and the first mage Quentin murdered and many others are all mages who proved they are not dangerous and were afforded greater freedoms because of it.

 

I understand the logic behind disliking how freedom is something the Templars and Chantry can give and take away but these ARE dangerous people.

 

[AtreiyaN7]

Not only her. Wynne and Finn and Rhys and Irving and Bethany and the first mage Quentin murdered and many others are all mages who proved they are not dangerous and were afforded greater freedoms because of it.
 
I understand the logic behind disliking how freedom is something the Templars and Chantry can give and take away but these ARE dangerous people.

Which one could say about anyone who knows how to rub two sticks together in order to start a fire. Anyone with that basic knowledge is a potential arsonist who could suddenly decide to set a house on fire and kill everyone in it. If you live life by that logic, you might as well lock up anyone who knows how to start a fire because they could maybe be dangerous and could maybe kill people. Should the Chantry start preaching about how dangerous anyone who can use fire is?

Even Dorian and Blackwall end up debating/arguing about how dangerous magic is, except that in Dorian's analogy about magic, he uses swords as his example. Although I don't like the Tevinter Imperium or how they do things (seeing as the Magisterium is corrupt, plus the whole blood magic thing and slavery), the Imperium's existence proves the point that you can have free mages who don't turn into abominations at the drop of a hat despite not being guarded 24/7 and kept under constant lock and key.

I'm going to reiterate that I don't like the Tevinter Imperium and am not saying that that is how things should be in Ferelden or Orlais before someone runs with that. It's just that people always use the "Well, they're dangerous and could turn into abominations at any time or go on a killing spree!" argument as a bit of a scare tactic when it's clear that mages can, in theory, live alongside non-mages without instantly disastrous results.

Yes, mages can definitely be dangerous, but magic is a tool like any other tool, and with proper training it seems unlikely that they'll go around incinerating entire towns or end up going on murderous rampages. If a mage steps out of line and starts killing people or turns into an abomination or starting some other trouble, by all means, take care of the problem individual with templars if necessary and put them down or arrest them - just like you would with any other person who commits a serious crime.

[Boost32]

Which one could say about anyone who knows how to rub two sticks together in order to start a fire. Anyone with that basic knowledge is a potential arsonist who could suddenly decide to set a house on fire and kill everyone in it. If you live life by that logic, you might as well lock up anyone who knows how to start a fire because they could maybe be dangerous and could maybe kill people. Should the Chantry start preaching about how dangerous anyone who can use fire is?
Even Dorian and Blackwall end up debating/arguing about how dangerous magic is, except that in Dorian's analogy about magic, he uses swords as his example. Although I don't like the Tevinter Imperium or how they do things (seeing as the Magisterium is corrupt, plus the whole blood magic thing and slavery), the Imperium's existence proves the point that you can have free mages who don't turn into abominations at the drop of a hat despite not being guarded 24/7 and kept under constant lock and key.
I'm going to reiterate that I don't like the Tevinter Imperium and am not saying that that is how things should be in Ferelden or Orlais before someone runs with that. It's just that people always use the "Well, they're dangerous and could turn into abominations at any time or go on a killing spree!" argument as a bit of a scare tactic when it's clear that mages can, in theory, live alongside non-mages without instantly disastrous results.
Yes, mages can definitely be dangerous, but magic is a tool like any other tool, and with proper training it seems unlikely that they'll go around incinerating entire towns or end up going on murderous rampages. If a mage steps out of line and starts killing people or turns into an abomination or starting some other trouble, by all means, take care of the problem individual with templars if necessary and put them down or arrest them - just like you would with any other person who commits a serious crime.

The danger of a sword is not the same as the danger of the magic, the latter have way more power do destroy.
And Tevinter proves why mages should be watched, Blood magic sacrifices, Blight, Lyrium Tatoos, Venatori, etc. All of those things wouldnt exist if they were in the Cirlce.

[Barquiel]

Gregoire complained that a grand total of seven mages were allowed to help at Ostagar. He thought that was too many. If only seven mages are allowed to fight against the darkspawn at ostagar, the front lines of the Blight, how many mages are ever given opportunity to prove themselves "trustworthy" in peace time so that they can visit their families, go shopping etc.? Not very many, I suspect.

[The Baconer]

No, there aren't any "prison system". That's the point. There are only dungeons in which they throw prisoners, and wait for them to die.

 

You are making assumptions, based on nothing in particular, and construing them as factual characteristics of a part of Thedas we know exceedingly little about. What we do know more about are the aspects of the Circle that render it a "system", that in turn carry over to their methods of imprisonment. 

 

 

An error. They happen. Errors aren't symptoms of a malfunctioning system, they are just mishaps.

 

It's not a "mishap". Mishaps are acknowledged and corrected when possible. This was a fatal mistake, that was in turn dissembled so that no proper reprimand or inquiry could be made. That is institutional corruption.

[MisterJB]

Gregoire complained that a grand total of seven mages were allowed to help at Ostagar. He thought that was too many. If only seven mages are allowed to fight against the darkspawn at ostagar, the front lines of the Blight, how many mages are ever given opportunity to prove themselves "trustworthy" in peace time so that they can visit their families, go shopping etc.? Not very many, I suspect.

Adrian could go shopping and she is about as bad as they come.

[MisterJB]

Which one could say about anyone who knows how to rub two sticks together in order to start a fire. Anyone with that basic knowledge is a potential arsonist who could suddenly decide to set a house on fire and kill everyone in it. If you live life by that logic, you might as well lock up anyone who knows how to start a fire because they could maybe be dangerous and could maybe kill people. Should the Chantry start preaching about how dangerous anyone who can use fire is?

Is a torch as dangerous as a flamethrower just because fire is the basis of both?

When was the last time a non-mage child destroyed an entire village without even meaning to?

 

 

Even Dorian and Blackwall end up debating/arguing about how dangerous magic is, except that in Dorian's analogy about magic, he uses swords as his example. Although I don't like the Tevinter Imperium or how they do things (seeing as the Magisterium is corrupt, plus the whole blood magic thing and slavery), the Imperium's existence proves the point that you can have free mages who don't turn into abominations at the drop of a hat despite not being guarded 24/7 and kept under constant lock and key.

 

And what about mages dominating society? It has occured in many societies where they are not controlled. Tevinter, Rivain, the Dalish, Chasind, etc.

Can you assure Thedosians this won't happen in Orlais or Ferelden?
 

 

I'm going to reiterate that I don't like the Tevinter Imperium and am not saying that that is how things should be in Ferelden or Orlais before someone runs with that. It's just that people always use the "Well, they're dangerous and could turn into abominations at any time or go on a killing spree!" argument as a bit of a scare tactic when it's clear that mages can, in theory, live alongside non-mages without instantly disastrous results.

Yes, mages can definitely be dangerous, but magic is a tool like any other tool, and with proper training it seems unlikely that they'll go around incinerating entire towns or end up going on murderous rampages. If a mage steps out of line and starts killing people or turns into an abomination or starting some other trouble, by all means, take care of the problem individual with templars if necessary and put them down or arrest them - just like you would with any other person who commits a serious crime.

Meredith's sister killed 70 people before being killed. And this was an Abomination created from a mage who couldn't cast a single spell and had no political power.
 How many people did Connor kill?

What about Corypheus? How many millions?

 

 

If mages are free, will all abuse their powers? No. Will all become Abominations? Again, no.

But many will on both cases. Is the freedom of one mage more important than the lives of 70 non-mages?

 

 

[The Baconer]

But many will on both cases. Is the freedom of one mage more important than the lives of 70 non-mages?

 

According to the Chantry, yes, given a certain candidate for the Sunburst Throne.

[Boost32]

According to the Chantry, yes, given a certain candidate for the Sunburst Throne.

I dont know if you are talking about Vivienne or Leliana.

[The Baconer]

I dont know if you are talking about Vivienne or Leliana.

 

Vivienne, since her ability to be a candidate at all is quite a statement.