123 réponses à ce sujet

[Treacherous J Slither]

No, but seriously. What's a soul? That's the question here, and do the Geth have one? You're pretty far off track now.

Souls don't exist. Until im proven wrong that's what im sticking with.

[Silvair]

Paranoid schizophrenics aim to be happy, but that doesn't mean they have good mental health. The same is true for people with depression or other mental health issues. So would you consider conditions like that simply a glitch in the code? And a person with normal brain chemistry doesn't necessarily have good mental health just because they aim to be happy. That's a bit too broad of a brush.

 

I would argue that many luxuries actually make it more difficult to survive. Sedentary lifestyles and fast food are luxuries, but that won't increase the odds of survival. They're actually decreased and that's why we have doctors handing out cholesterol and blood pressure medications left and right.

 

If all we did was simply obey our "core programming" then we would still be hunter/gatherers. But then we started wondering what those lights in the night sky were and we started asking philosophical questions about what it means to be alive. We don't simply obey core programming. We continually go far beyond what it means to simply survive and multiply.

 

But none of that has anything to do with what a soul is.

Exactly my point.

As for "Soul", i'm defining it in the non religious sense, as in, "Sentience=Soul", not the religious "Essence separate from the body" idea, especially since that's a moot point regarding an AI race like the Geth.

 

 

Luxuries increase survival because they make life easier. Less luxury means a harder life. Driving beats walking. Having meals prepared for you beats doing it all yourself from scratch. Indoor plumbing beats chamber pot. And so on.

 

This is simply not true.

Luxuries dull your survival skills, making life much harder if you are deprived of said luxuries.  Driving makes people intolerant to the physical strain of walking long distances.  Having meals prepared for you means you don't know how to feed yourself.  Indoor plumbing means you don't know what to do outdoors, etc, etc.

This is why you find so many kids from rich families unable to handle the day to day requirements of real life; they've been spoiled and never learned the necessary skills.

[Monica21]

Souls don't exist. Until im proven wrong that's what im sticking with.

 

Then what position are you arguing?

[Monica21]

As for "Soul", i'm defining it in the non religious sense, as in, "Sentience=Soul", not the religious "Essence separate from the body" idea, especially since that's a moot point regarding an AI race like the Geth.

 

I'm not a big fan of the definition of "soul" because I completely agree. The Geth cannot have a metaphysical part of them that is separate from the machine. But the problem is that the moment a machine asks, "Am I alive?" then they know there is something other than what they are and what they were built to do. That is when they start rewriting the code and, though they may not be organic, that's when I say that they are "alive."

[Treacherous J Slither]

Exactly my point.

As for "Soul", i'm defining it in the non religious sense, as in, "Sentience=Soul", not the religious "Essence separate from the body" idea, especially since that's a moot point regarding an AI race like the Geth.


This is simply not true.

Luxuries dull your survival skills, making life much harder if you are deprived of said luxuries. Driving makes people intolerant to the physical strain of walking long distances. Having meals prepared for you means you don't know how to feed yourself. Indoor plumbing means you don't know what to do outdoors, etc, etc.

This is why you find so many kids from rich families unable to handle the day to day requirements of real life; they've been spoiled and never learned the necessary skills.

Apparently you have misunderstood me. Ill try to make it easier.

Would you rather live alone in the wilderness with whatever shelter you can build for yourself, whatever food you can hunt down or scrounge up, and whatever clothing you can fashion from whatever you've killed OR live in a big city with a good paying job?

[Treacherous J Slither]

Then what position are you arguing?

Uuuhh...

[Treacherous J Slither]

I'm not a big fan of the definition of "soul" because I completely agree. The Geth cannot have a metaphysical part of them that is separate from the machine. But the problem is that the moment a machine asks, "Am I alive?" then they know there is something other than what they are and what they were built to do. That is when they start rewriting the code and, though they may not be organic, that's when I say that they are "alive."

Why can't the geth have a separate metaphysical part?

[Monica21]

Apparently you have misunderstood me. Ill try to make it easier.

Would you rather live alone in the wilderness with whatever shelter you can build for yourself, whatever food you can hunt down or scrounge up, and whatever clothing you can fashion from whatever you've killed OR live in a big city with a good paying job?

I think you're mistaking "luxury" with "easy." And there are a lot of people who want to be farmers. Frankly, there are a lot of people who would prefer to live a life like you describe, off the grid and back to nature. You're unlikely to find them on an Internet forum though. Let's not make this worse by presuming that everyone wants the same things in life.

[Monica21]

Why can't the geth have a separate metaphysical part?

You don't believe humans have souls. Why are you asking this? What is the relevance of your question?

[Silvair]

Why can't the geth have a separate metaphysical part?

They do, in a sense.  They are in fact, software.  AIs.  Or, its not that they HAVE souls, its that they ARE souls.  We Are Legion, and all that.  Digital souls, at any rate.

 

 

Apparently you have misunderstood me. Ill try to make it easier.

Would you rather live alone in the wilderness with whatever shelter you can build for yourself, whatever food you can hunt down or scrounge up, and whatever clothing you can fashion from whatever you've killed OR live in a big city with a good paying job?

Considering I prefer living in the mountains over living in a city, and I've been largely self-sustained for years now, I'll say yes.  I even take a little bit of pride that I actually have learned survival skills that most people lack.  

You don't need to be a caveman, but my point is that due to luxuries, most people don't even learn the most BASIC skills to sustain themselves, or survive on their own.  don't know how to cook, or improvise, or recycle or handle emergencies, nothing.

 

when I say "survival skills" i don't mean all the way down to hunting and gathering, I mean BASIC stuff like how to cook, clean yourself, spot dangers, deal with animals, repair things, etc.  

[Monica21]

Considering I prefer living in the mountains over living in a city, and I've been largely self-sustained for years now, I'll say yes.  I even take a little bit of pride that I actually have learned survival skills that most people lack.  

You don't need to be a caveman, but my point is that due to luxuries, most people don't even learn the most BASIC skills to sustain themselves, or survive on their own.  don't know how to cook, or improvise, or recycle or handle emergencies, nothing.

 

when I say "survival skills" i don't mean all the way down to hunting and gathering, I mean BASIC stuff like how to cook, clean yourself, spot dangers, deal with animals, repair things, etc.  

 

So when the zombie apocalypse comes, I'm finding your house.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I think you're mistaking "luxury" with "easy." And there are a lot of people who want to be farmers. Frankly, there are a lot of people who would prefer to live a life like you describe, off the grid and back to nature. You're unlikely to find them on an Internet forum though. Let's not make this worse by presuming that everyone wants the same things in life.

There are some that may prefer it but the point I was trying to make is that it's a lot harder to survive living that way.

[Treacherous J Slither]

They do, in a sense. They are in fact, software. AIs. Or, its not that they HAVE souls, its that they ARE souls. We Are Legion, and all that. Digital souls, at any rate.


Considering I prefer living in the mountains over living in a city, and I've been largely self-sustained for years now, I'll say yes. I even take a little bit of pride that I actually have learned survival skills that most people lack.

You don't need to be a caveman, but my point is that due to luxuries, most people don't even learn the most BASIC skills to sustain themselves, or survive on their own. don't know how to cook, or improvise, or recycle or handle emergencies, nothing.

when I say "survival skills" i don't mean all the way down to hunting and gathering, I mean BASIC stuff like how to cook, clean yourself, spot dangers, deal with animals, repair things, etc.

Ugh ffs im not talking about survival skills. Just surviving. Just living day to day. Having easy access to food, shelter, medical care etc. If these things are easy to come by your chances of survival go up. If they are difficult to come by your chances of survival go down.

[Treacherous J Slither]

You don't believe humans have souls. Why are you asking this? What is the relevance of your question?

I want to know why you assume the geth don't have a separate metaphysical part.

[Treacherous J Slither]

@Silvair: I like the digital souls idea. Thats pretty cool.

[Laughing_Man]

I want to know why you assume the geth don't have a separate metaphysical part.

 

I would assume that since the idea of a separate metaphysical soul is a religious one in source, the Geth would not have that because they are not "made in god's image" or are not "god's creation" etc.

[Undead Han]

Regarding souls...

 

For people who believe in an afterlife I suppose a soul is seen as a necessity for sentient life. For theists life isn't a cosmic accident, but was created by some divine spark.

 

So while the Geth are being metaphysical with the "Does the unit have a soul" stuff, you could rephrase that as "Am I alive?" Strip the question of the metaphysical bits, and that is basically what it is asking. 

 

Are the Geth a form of life, or just a synthetic mimicry of it?

[Laughing_Man]

And the next question would be, is there a real difference between the "original" and the "mimicry" as long as certain parameters are achieved?

[Silvair]

So when the zombie apocalypse comes, I'm finding your house.

It will be empty because a house is a deathtrap in that situation.

 

 

Ugh ffs im not talking about survival skills. Just surviving. Just living day to day. Having easy access to food, shelter, medical care etc. If these things are easy to come by your chances of survival go up. If they are difficult to come by your chances of survival go down.

Then that goes back to what I was saying between needs and wants.  Food and shelter are Needs.  Medical care is actually a want, a luxury.  Countless people go without it and do just fine.  Its not needed.  (What I mean by that, is rather than requiring medical care, you would instead learn what can cause harm, and how to avoid it in the first place).

Eating, shelter, reproduction, are all the needs.  Wants are things like medical care, entertainment, modern tools and and appliances that make things easier.  They all lessen survival by removing skills from the people, so they are helpless without the luxuries.  

This is why (I still laugh at this), when 50 Shades of Grey came out, there was a sudden influx of people checking into emergency rooms for penetration based injuries lol.  People are too stupid to think anymore, they believe movies and crap.  That's real indoctrination for you. (Not being counterculture hippie teen, just couldn't resist the comparison)

 

 

I want to know why you assume the geth don't have a separate metaphysical part.

 

@Silvair: I like the digital souls idea. Thats pretty cool.

Well I mean, technically, the geth don't have a physical form.  So in an organic equivalent, they are a hive of souls that possess bodies in the corporeal world.

Geth are literally the same as Ermac: hundreds of "souls" inhabiting one "body".



So in a LITERAL sense, yes, this unit has a sole.  many, in fact.



Now in the FIGURATIVE sense, they gained a soul once they gained sentience and awareness.  And again, I judge sentience but having Wants, on top of Needs (which doesn't require sentience to accomplish).  In this case, the geth WANTED to know if it had a soul, a purpose.  In that moment, yes, they gained a figurative soul.

[Silvair]

Regarding souls...

 

For people who believe in an afterlife I suppose a soul is seen as a necessity for sentient life. For theists life isn't a cosmic accident, but was created by some divine spark.

 

So while the Geth are being metaphysical with the "Does the unit have a soul" stuff, you could rephrase that as "Am I alive?" Strip the question of the metaphysical bits, and that is basically what it is asking. 

 

Are the Geth a form of life, or just a synthetic mimicry of it?

The Geth are Synthetic Life.  They have evolved and adapted, come into their own as a species and culture.

 

 

And the next question would be, is there a real difference between the "original" and the "mimicry" as long as certain parameters are achieved?

Look to the Legion VI for the difference there.

Or the difference between any AI and a VI, really.

For example, after the Destroy ending, there's nothing stopping the Quarians from recreating the Geth under the same parameters, but they'd lack all the experiences of the previous geth, so while they would be a real intelligence, they would evolve into a different type of geth.  Much in the same way we are all human, but there's countless different cultures on earth.

 

[Treacherous J Slither]

@Silvair:

 

You think medical care is unnecessary? You can't be serious. 

 

The more your life is in danger the greater the need for survival skills. The less your life is in danger the lesser the need for survival skills. Access to modern advancements lessens the threat to an individual's life and therefore lessens the need for survival skills. How are you not getting this? Seriously how?

 

Our needs and our wants all tie into survival. What is it that you or anyone wants that has nothing to do with wanting to stick around? 

[Treacherous J Slither]

I would assume that since the idea of a separate metaphysical soul is a religious one in source, the Geth would not have that because they are not "made in god's image" or are not "god's creation" etc.

 

And if the geth asked for proof of this "soul"?

 

Shepherd: "I have a soul."

 

Legion: "...Prove it."

[Silvair]

@Silvair:

 

You think medical care is unnecessary? You can't be serious. 

 

The more your life is in danger the greater the need for survival skills. The less your life is in danger the lesser the need for survival skills. Access to modern advancements lessens the threat to an individual's life and therefore lessens the need for survival skills. How are you not getting this? Seriously how?

 

Our needs and our wants all tie into survival. What is it that you or anyone wants that has nothing to do with wanting to stick around? 

Yes.  i've gone my entire life without any medical coverage or first aid, and it's never been an issue.  Because I've gone without all that, I've wound up with a rather strong immune system that allows me to go without it even more.

 

Your entire argument falls apart the moment the power goes out.  Thousands die during blackouts.  Those who don't rely on that stuff simply adapt to going without.  Kept candles and flashlights around, know how to cook and wash without power, etc, etc.  Generally know how to live with or without luxuries.  Access to modern advancements is an unneeded luxury.  RELIANCE on modern advancements cripples you.

 

This is why people are in "awe" of how ancient civilizations could do supposedly miraculous engineering and navigational feats like build pyramids or sail the seas without GPS.  Those people didn't have technology doing things FOR them, is all it came down to.  We are dumbstruck at the idea because our skills have atrophied thanks to modern technology.

 

I WANT to see the new Ant-Man movie, but its certainly not tied to my survival lol.   It's not a "need".

[SuperJogi]

Yes.  i've gone my entire life without any medical coverage or first aid, and it's never been an issue.  Because I've gone without all that, I've wound up with a rather strong immune system that allows me to go without it even more.

 

Please don't tell me you're one of those anti-vaccine idiots.

 

Your entire argument falls apart the moment the power goes out.  Thousands die during blackouts.  Those who don't rely on that stuff simply adapt to going without.  Kept candles and flashlights around, know how to cook and wash without power, etc, etc.  Generally know how to live with or without luxuries.  Access to modern advancements is an unneeded luxury.  RELIANCE on modern advancements cripples you.

 

This is why people are in "awe" of how ancient civilizations could do supposedly miraculous engineering and navigational feats like build pyramids or sail the seas without GPS.  Those people didn't have technology doing things FOR them, is all it came down to.  We are dumbstruck at the idea because our skills have atrophied thanks to modern technology.

 

And your entire argument falls apart as soon as you reverse it. According to your logic, a man from ancient egypt would have no problems if you placed him in the middle of manhatten. That is ridicoulus. In fact, I would say a modern human would have an easier time adapting to ancient life than the other way around.

[Silvair]

Please don't tell me you're one of those anti-vaccine idiots.

 

 

And your entire argument falls apart as soon as you reverse it. According to your logic, a man from ancient egypt would have no problems if you placed him in the middle of manhatten. That is ridicoulus. In fact, I would say a modern human would have an easier time adapting to ancient life than the other way around.

no I just can't afford medical coverage so I do without.

 

And really the only two issues with transplanting ancient egyptian to manhhattan are culture shock, and exposure to modern diseases without the benefit of having evolved to adapt to it.

 

When I say "Modern human" I mean "First world".  Most of africa is third world or below, and they do just fine without all the advancements of the modern world.  But most people from first world countries would flat die off if they suddenly moved to one of the 3rd-4th world countries, for lack of survival skills lol.  That's why you got that one idiot, the privileged white guy who did the documentary about how he'd suddenly move into the wilderness, abandon society...then promptly died, while the people who actually lived out there were all "What a freaking idiot".  He had NO survival skills whatsoever.