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Do Geth Have "Souls"? On the relativity of "life".


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#101
Treacherous J Slither

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Yes.  i've gone my entire life without any medical coverage or first aid, and it's never been an issue.  Because I've gone without all that, I've wound up with a rather strong immune system that allows me to go without it even more.

 

Your entire argument falls apart the moment the power goes out.  Thousands die during blackouts.  Those who don't rely on that stuff simply adapt to going without.  Kept candles and flashlights around, know how to cook and wash without power, etc, etc.  Generally know how to live with or without luxuries.  Access to modern advancements is an unneeded luxury.  RELIANCE on modern advancements cripples you.

 

This is why people are in "awe" of how ancient civilizations could do supposedly miraculous engineering and navigational feats like build pyramids or sail the seas without GPS.  Those people didn't have technology doing things FOR them, is all it came down to.  We are dumbstruck at the idea because our skills have atrophied thanks to modern technology.

 

I WANT to see the new Ant-Man movie, but its certainly not tied to my survival lol.   It's not a "need".

 

So far you have lucked out and nothing unfortunate has happened to you. This streak might not last. Hopefully you'll have access to modern medical care if/when you're luck runs out. Otherwise...

 

Anyone that loses what they depend on to survive is gonna be screwed. Even your mighty mountain man.

 

I say if you're looking forward to seeing that movie then you intend to survive up to that point. Ant Man is yet another reason for you to stick around. Our wants and our needs all tie into survival. We all obey our prime directive. If you would rather defy it then by all means do so and end your life.



#102
Laughing_Man

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no I just can't afford medical coverage so I do without.

 

And really the only two issues with transplanting ancient egyptian to manhhattan are culture shock, and exposure to modern diseases without the benefit of having evolved to adapt to it.

 

When I say "Modern human" I mean "First world".  Most of africa is third world or below, and they do just fine without all the advancements of the modern world.  But most people from first world countries would flat die off if they suddenly moved to one of the 3rd-4th world countries, for lack of survival skills lol.  That's why you got that one idiot, the privileged white guy who did the documentary about how he'd suddenly move into the wilderness, abandon society...then promptly died, while the people who actually lived out there were all "What a freaking idiot".  He had NO survival skills whatsoever.

 

All well and good.

 

But the thing is, it's easier to take an educated guy from the modern world and teach him survival skills (if he has the will to actually learn), than the opposite.

 

Survival skills are not that hard to learn especially if you have the "feel" for it.

 

There is very little the ancients did better than we do today. Sure, reality may have changed radically - not always for good, but childbirth is not as deadly a business as it once was, people don't usually die of a simple cold, etc.



#103
Silvair

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All well and good.

 

But the thing is, it's easier to take an educated guy from the modern world and teach him survival skills (if he has the will to actually learn), than the opposite.

 

Survival skills are not that hard to learn especially if you have the "feel" for it.

 

There is very little the ancients did better than we do today. Sure, reality may have changed radically - not always for good, but childbirth is not as deadly a business as it once was, people don't usually die of a simple cold, etc.

 

 

 

Thing is, most (1st world) people DONT have a "feel" for it, is my point.  Its even as obvious as something simple as when a friend from town comes to visit in the mountains.  He literally can't handle ANYTHING.  Some of it is just a matter of experience, others are plain stupidity due to living in luxury.  Whereas, as someone who's worked in the mountains, I picked up on city stuff pretty quickly, since its "feed the baby" handholding, and I'm used to doing things myself.

 

What I mean by survival skills, is this is why you get so many idiots who walk out in front of cars to cut across the street, or try to run a red light, then act surprised when they get hit by a car.  Why I lose all sympathy when a victim cries "I don't understand how this could happen."  NO survival instinct at all.  as a 1st world country, we are breeding Lemmings, for the most part.  Comedians are refusing performances at college campuses, because the newest generations are PC idiots who don't understand what things mean anymore.  The more exposed to luxury someone is, the less of a concept they have of reality.

 

Anyways this is too far off topic.  I was just definined Soul=Sentience=Capability to have Wants over Needs.

 

 

So far you have lucked out and nothing unfortunate has happened to you. This streak might not last. Hopefully you'll have access to modern medical care if/when you're luck runs out. Otherwise...

 

Anyone that loses what they depend on to survive is gonna be screwed. Even your mighty mountain man.

 

I say if you're looking forward to seeing that movie then you intend to survive up to that point. Ant Man is yet another reason for you to stick around. Our wants and our needs all tie into survival. We all obey our prime directive. If you would rather defy it then by all means do so and end your life.

On medical care.....Nah, i could care less one way or the other.  I'd probably actively refuse it out of principle, and so my family wouldn't wind up in debt.  I've been thrown from horses, fell from multiple stories, dealt with serious infections, had a chain break off a chainsaw and nearly take my head off, dislocated my leg, etc etc.  It never got worse than that because I have these magical things called "reflexes" and an "immune system".  For stuff you can't HELP, though, then I'd accept it as my time.

 

Actually, I lied. I did go to a hospital twice.  First was for an ingrown toenail, though that was more my dad making me.  Second was I used workmans comp due to work making me do a job I wasn't hired on for, causing me to fall into poison oak, leaving my arm looking like a raw steak.  I went mostly out of spite towards my employers because they hate sending people to workmans comp lol.

And no, losing what they depend on isn't supposed to automatically screw you.  You are supposed to be able to adapt, which is what, say, most americans can't do.

 

And no.  I'm not sticking around FOR ant man, its a want, not a need.  Which is my point.  I probably won't even be able to afford it and wind up not even seeing it till its on Netflix.

 

Wants do not tie into survival, at all, though as you are proving, one of the main problems of the privileged is that they confused "wants" with "needs", think "luxuries" are "necessities".



#104
SwobyJ

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I'm cool with 'essence' stuff, to a degree, but not souls. I'll respect characters in Mass Effect who believe in souls (in whatever way), but I don't really buy it.

 

If the Catalyst said Shepard would be spreading his soul to the galaxy, I'd have automatically rejected him.

 

I feel soul is more singular than I regard these matters. Essences can be spread out and mean more than any one person could ever know.

 

But this is just metaphysical speculation, and in the end, I think its all bull. At least for now.

 

So no, Legion, I don't think this unit has a soul. And I don't think it matters. But if it does to you, it will matter to me.



#105
Silvair

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I'm cool with 'essence' stuff, to a degree, but not souls. I'll respect characters in Mass Effect who believe in souls (in whatever way), but I don't really buy it.

 

If the Catalyst said Shepard would be spreading his soul to the galaxy, I'd have automatically rejected him.

 

I feel soul is more singular than I regard these matters. Essences can be spread out and mean more than any one person could ever know.

 

But this is just metaphysical speculation, and in the end, I think its all bull. At least for now.

 

So no, Legion, I don't think this unit has a soul. And I don't think it matters. But if it does to you, it will matter to me.

I see it as the same thing.

 

Soul=Essence=Sense of Self=Sentience



#106
SwobyJ

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I see it as the same thing.

 

Soul=Essence=Sense of Self=Sentience

 

And that's fine, and perfectly legitimate. However, conventionally, each term has been used in different ways. Essence tends to be used less singularly as soul. Sense of self is psychological. Sentience is philosophical.

 

So all I mean is that I personally don't like the use of the word soul as much as other synonyms. Soul implies something more singular that approximates something that makes up a 'certain person'. Essence is broad enough that I can consider it closer to the truth of things (even if that's still rather 'out there' to me).

 

Part of this usage of 'soul' is its connection to Abrahamic religions, which communicate that souls only belong to man aka its a human person thing, humancentric, humanoid centric. I think the universe is probably far more complicated than that. I accept the use of the word soul, I just don't prefer it in my perspective. To me, there's too much baggage with that word at present.



#107
Monica21

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Can I backtrack here just a second, since this was originally about the Geth having souls? I'm just finishing up ME2 and got Legion not long ago. From what I can tell, he's still a networked AI. There's a bit about him being "special" but it was hard for me to tell from the dialogue just how special, but he can't operate on his own, right? He specifically says that the Geth can't function without being networked.

 

Did something change between ME2 and ME3? Because if they have to be networked, then they still share everything. I am myself because I have my own thoughts, memories, feelings, and emotions. All of those things make me, "me." If I do have a soul, it's my soul. It's not shared. If the Geth can't function outside of the network, how can it possibly have a soul, in any sense of the word, unless we want to start talking about shared souls, and that's beyond the scope of what I can think about tonight.



#108
Treacherous J Slither

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Thing is, most (1st world) people DONT have a "feel" for it, is my point.  Its even as obvious as something simple as when a friend from town comes to visit in the mountains.  He literally can't handle ANYTHING.  Some of it is just a matter of experience, others are plain stupidity due to living in luxury.  Whereas, as someone who's worked in the mountains, I picked up on city stuff pretty quickly, since its "feed the baby" handholding, and I'm used to doing things myself.

 

What I mean by survival skills, is this is why you get so many idiots who walk out in front of cars to cut across the street, or try to run a red light, then act surprised when they get hit by a car.  Why I lose all sympathy when a victim cries "I don't understand how this could happen."  NO survival instinct at all.  as a 1st world country, we are breeding Lemmings, for the most part.  Comedians are refusing performances at college campuses, because the newest generations are PC idiots who don't understand what things mean anymore.  The more exposed to luxury someone is, the less of a concept they have of reality.

 

Anyways this is too far off topic.  I was just definined Soul=Sentience=Capability to have Wants over Needs.

 

 

On medical care.....Nah, i could care less one way or the other.  I'd probably actively refuse it out of principle, and so my family wouldn't wind up in debt.  I've been thrown from horses, fell from multiple stories, dealt with serious infections, had a chain break off a chainsaw and nearly take my head off, dislocated my leg, etc etc.  It never got worse than that because I have these magical things called "reflexes" and an "immune system".  For stuff you can't HELP, though, then I'd accept it as my time.

 

Actually, I lied. I did go to a hospital twice.  First was for an ingrown toenail, though that was more my dad making me.  Second was I used workmans comp due to work making me do a job I wasn't hired on for, causing me to fall into poison oak, leaving my arm looking like a raw steak.  I went mostly out of spite towards my employers because they hate sending people to workmans comp lol.

And no, losing what they depend on isn't supposed to automatically screw you.  You are supposed to be able to adapt, which is what, say, most americans can't do.

 

And no.  I'm not sticking around FOR ant man, its a want, not a need.  Which is my point.  I probably won't even be able to afford it and wind up not even seeing it till its on Netflix.

 

Wants do not tie into survival, at all, though as you are proving, one of the main problems of the privileged is that they confused "wants" with "needs", think "luxuries" are "necessities".

 

Yet again you misunderstand me. I don't mean survival as in the struggle to survive,  man against the elements etc. I simply mean living day by day. Merely continuing your existence. 

 

Looking forward to something means that you have plans for the future. You don't intend to die anytime soon. You would rather meet your goals whatever they may be.

 

I don't think any luxuries are necessities. A stove isn't necessary but its far better than rubbing two sticks together. 

 

When you tended your own injuries did you ever use rubbing alcohol or hydrogen peroxide?  Have you ever been to the dentist? Were you born in a hospital? Ever shopped at a pharmacy or supermarket? Do you make your own clothes? Do you have a job and pay taxes? Do you vote? Do you take advantage of any modern advancements whatsoever? Do you believe these advancements enhance our lives or are a detriment to them? Would we benefit as a species by going back to the stone age? 


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#109
SwobyJ

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Can I backtrack here just a second, since this was originally about the Geth having souls? I'm just finishing up ME2 and got Legion not long ago. From what I can tell, he's still a networked AI. There's a bit about him being "special" but it was hard for me to tell from the dialogue just how special, but he can't operate on his own, right? He specifically says that the Geth can't function without being networked.

 

Did something change between ME2 and ME3? Because if they have to be networked, then they still share everything. I am myself because I have my own thoughts, memories, feelings, and emotions. All of those things make me, "me." If I do have a soul, it's my soul. It's not shared. If the Geth can't function outside of the network, how can it possibly have a soul, in any sense of the word, unless we want to start talking about shared souls, and that's beyond the scope of what I can think about tonight.

 

Legion has enough programs in his hardware to operate independently. Consider him a Geth 2.0. Geth would not normally create such a thing, as they are quite comfortable with their Consensus, but this was seemingly done in order to figure out heretics/organics/Shepard.

 

The Geth are programs. Each program can be considered a single Geth. Many programs go into a Geth platform, networking with the Consensus, and gaining the intelligence in order to ask, say, philosophical questions.

 

So what's happening here is that the single Geth platform is designed by the Quarians to be just a really good super-tool, but the platform is starting to 'think' it is an 'individual', if only barely. That the platform it is in, or rather the specific programs it houses, is a 'person' who very well could have a 'soul'.

 

So indeed, if Geth have souls, it is a concept that is beyond most human understanding. Is the soul the single programs? Is the soul the Consensus itself? Is the soul the specific combination of programs within a single platform that combined with Consensus intelligence may start to view itself as a single person?

 

Legion is basically the furthest example of the latter, making him the easiest to 'relate' to as a 'person'. He then goes even further in ME3, having gained supposed insights from networking with the Reapers (... consider that a good or bad thing), and deciding, 'individually', that a Reaper code upgrade is an ideal course of action for the Geth. That they can use this upgrade, on their own, still be free as a 'people', and become more than anyone could have ever imagined. The player can decide whether this is right or wrong to do, and decide whether Legion is actually in his 'right mind' or instead gone 'insane' from Reaper exposure, but it is Legion's position nonetheless and we have to do something about it because the Dyson Sphere path for the Geth was destroyed by the Quarians.

 

If Legion performs the upgrade, it seems like the Geth become even more like 'individuals' than ever before, able to see their platforms as their bodies, while also being able to transcend the body in their Consensus. Basically they've achieved everything they wanted to achieve, and we have to decide whether we're comfortable with this, given that it was achieved through assets and aspects of the Reapers, instead of the Geth alone. It isn't necessarily like Geth/Legion accepted any single Reaper's 'path', but Legion did take the path of 'The Reapers'. Through this, they seem to have acquired what appears closest to 'a soul'. Though I find it funny and interesting that many players actually find this version of the Geth/Legion to be disturbing, and only consider ME2 Legion, if anyone, to be 'someone developing a soul' on their own, and that the Reaper upgrade actually 'corrupted' the process, in a way.

 

 

Your position on the soul is like I expressed in a previous post - it is singular. It is also a very anthropocentric view on the soul, and one that at least has bias towards only human beings having souls, not animals, tools, objects, non-sapient or non-sentient organic things, etc. There are other spiritual views that actually go far beyond humans, and may even include every single thing in all of existence, but it is more comfortable for many people to not call this spirituality 'souls' but instead 'essence' or something like that. A lot of this is from our association of the soul as something one 'owns' (instead of what one 'is') and that is can be sold/taken. That is it an 'object' in itself, not an expression ('to soul', heh). To the Geth, one doesn't 'have' a soul - one, if anything, 'is' a soul. Maybe. They're not sure yet. But I think what ME3 tries to make clear (whether one considers it good writing or not) is that 'Does this unit have a soul?' is an unresolved question for the Consensus, one that sees the Quarian writings of 'having' a soul but cannot reconcile that with their state of existence as programs.



#110
Silvair

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Can I backtrack here just a second, since this was originally about the Geth having souls? I'm just finishing up ME2 and got Legion not long ago. From what I can tell, he's still a networked AI. There's a bit about him being "special" but it was hard for me to tell from the dialogue just how special, but he can't operate on his own, right? He specifically says that the Geth can't function without being networked.

 

Did something change between ME2 and ME3? Because if they have to be networked, then they still share everything. I am myself because I have my own thoughts, memories, feelings, and emotions. All of those things make me, "me." If I do have a soul, it's my soul. It's not shared. If the Geth can't function outside of the network, how can it possibly have a soul, in any sense of the word, unless we want to start talking about shared souls, and that's beyond the scope of what I can think about tonight.

Normally Geth only achieve intelligence in packs, as the ai network together through wifi or whatever.

Legion is unique in that he circumvents by just having far more GETH AI in one "body" than any geth before, allowing him to mantain intelligence without being around other geth platforms.

 

Usually its only like one or a few GETH AI per body.

But as a gestalt entity, Legion effectively becomes an actual individual, as he/they don't require linking up to the rest of the geth, allowing him to develop on his own, separate from the rest.



#111
SwobyJ

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One reason the Geth still keep fewer programs in each platform is that they're very protective of losing programs (us destroying hubs is like destroying a Geth city, in their value), so they keep it to a minimum and instead dump as much resources as possible into being the Consensus, and then the Dyson Sphere for every single program to exist together. Legion was a unique attempt made only because of the surprise schism into orthodox and heretic Geth (thanks Sovereign..), and then the Reaper Code Upgrade was Legion's individual (though debatable whether he was in his 'right mind') decision to save the Geth now that the Dyson Sphere plan failed and the Reapers will now threaten the Geth again. It was a partial compromise (use Reaper code) for the sake of (in Legion's view) preserving as much self/geth-determination as possible, in dire circumstances. 



#112
Kurt M.

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Slightly OT maybe, but being this topic about AI, and seeing how close we (humankind) are ourselves to create our own version of Geths (yep, technology advances like crazy), I thought this may be an interesting read (pretty long, but worth it):

 

http://waitbutwhy.co...volution-1.html

 

http://waitbutwhy.co...volution-2.html


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#113
Treacherous J Slither

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One reason the Geth still keep fewer programs in each platform is that they're very protective of losing programs (us destroying hubs is like destroying a Geth city, in their value), so they keep it to a minimum and instead dump as much resources as possible into being the Consensus, and then the Dyson Sphere for every single program to exist together. Legion was a unique attempt made only because of the surprise schism into orthodox and heretic Geth (thanks Sovereign..), and then the Reaper Code Upgrade was Legion's individual (though debatable whether he was in his 'right mind') decision to save the Geth now that the Dyson Sphere plan failed and the Reapers will now threaten the Geth again. It was a partial compromise (use Reaper code) for the sake of (in Legion's view) preserving as much self/geth-determination as possible, in dire circumstances.


Do the Geth reproduce or copy themselves? If not then how many were there to start with because they've lost a lot over the years.

Also is there some form of command structure? How is it decided who inhabits what platform?

Also, if they have a fear of death then why not make each platform a lot tougher? If they are aware of their capability increasing when there's a lot of them then why put so few in each platform?

#114
Ahriman

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One reason the Geth still keep fewer programs in each platform is that they're very protective of losing programs (us destroying hubs is like destroying a Geth city, in their value), so they keep it to a minimum and instead dump as much resources as possible into being the Consensus, and then the Dyson Sphere for every single program to exist together. Legion was a unique attempt made only because of the surprise schism into orthodox and heretic Geth (thanks Sovereign..), and then the Reaper Code Upgrade was Legion's individual (though debatable whether he was in his 'right mind') decision to save the Geth now that the Dyson Sphere plan failed and the Reapers will now threaten the Geth again. It was a partial compromise (use Reaper code) for the sake of (in Legion's view) preserving as much self/geth-determination as possible, in dire circumstances. 

What makes you think so? Since geth are VI, you simply need to copy enough combat programs from hub to platform.



#115
SwobyJ

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Do the Geth reproduce or copy themselves? If not then how many were there to start with because they've lost a lot over the years.

Also is there some form of command structure? How is it decided who inhabits what platform?

Also, if they have a fear of death then why not make each platform a lot tougher? If they are aware of their capability increasing when there's a lot of them then why put so few in each platform?

 

-They likely create base copies of a geth program. This likely continues indefinitely but within a bounds of hardware. "They've lost a lot" may actually be an understatement as they may have billions, trillions, or much more. If one considers a geth program to be a life, then Destroy (with Geth present for it) could very well be more deaths than any humanoid-ish organic life in the Milky Way. But in terms of platforms (-->Legion's dissemination making platforms more like organic life), its far fewer.

 

-It is consensus. They share processing power, transfer data, and make conclusions from the data and likely have a techno-democracy where the more popular conclusion is what is done. It is a 'tyranny of the majority' that democracy can be, but because they share data near instantly amongst themselves while in the Collective, this can mean *mostly* 'correct' decisions are made for themselves. We are shown exceptions to that idea though, like how Geth decided to genocide the Quarians (was that right to do?), how Legion becomes relatively more of an individual form, the Heretic split being so drastic that it cut off a part of the Consensus, etc.

-Platform placement likely follows algorithms for maximum efficiency. We don't need to know the details.

 

-Honestly? They probably lack imagination. Compare to 'spirits' in Dragon Age, really. They developed a model and improved on it, but they seem to still want to be as close as possible to their form when they split off from the Quarians. So they're in a sort of (semi) stasis as an AI species compared to what they could be if they let go of the Quarians and/or gained more 'organic' imagination.

The platforms themselves do get incrementally stronger though. It is easy to consider the ME3 Geth to be stronger than Morning War Geth, and even ME3 Geth to be stronger than ME1 Geth. But they only improve the 'Geth' form, without moving drastically away from it.

Heck, we could even see that Armatures and Colossi are based off of large animals (perhaps used in more ancient times for carrying) of Rannoch, but that's just speculation.

 

What makes you think so? Since geth are VI, you simply need to copy enough combat programs from hub to platform.

 

I tend to think that the Geth protect their programs in a way semi-akin to organics. They don't only churn out programs like a flood. They may not consider Geth programs to be the same as organic life, but they've decided that it is life nonetheless, and therefore not purely disposable for combat.

 

 

 

I admit a lot of this is speculation and conjecture.



#116
Treacherous J Slither

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How is it decided who inhabits the Geth Bomber and who inhabits the Geth Prime? I imagine the Prime would be more desirable due to it's survivability so who ends up in the relatively frail Bomber?

If they make base copies then why not have a ton of geth in each platform? Im sure its easier to make new geth than new organics so their numbers should be crazy. Since more geth equals more power they should have been making copies like crazy and should have ridiculous numbers. More than enough to flood each platform with thousands of geth. How many years has it been since the Morning War? What have they been doing with their time if not seeking ways to improve themselves?

You know, I never really gave the geth much thought but now I see that they are presented very incorrectly. Big surprise.
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#117
Kurt M.

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http://linustechtips...awareness-test/

 

....they're coming...


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#118
Laughing_Man

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http://linustechtips...awareness-test/

 

....they're coming...

 

This is either very good, or extremely bad.



#119
Kurt M.

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This is either very good, or extremely bad.

 

 

This is getting downright scary....and the worst part is that I can't say I'm not excited for all of this :D



#120
Kurt M.

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https://youtu.be/IXEKXAAXVfs?t=263

 

I dare you to see this and not to get shivers....wow, just wow.



#121
Ahriman

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http://linustechtips...awareness-test/

 

....they're coming...

"Does this unit have a voice? Sorry, I know now"

That's interesting, though it's hard to call "self-aware" in traditional sense.



#122
Laughing_Man

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https://youtu.be/IXEKXAAXVfs?t=263

 

I dare you to see this and not to get shivers....wow, just wow.

 

Very interesting.



#123
Dantriges

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Slightly OT maybe, but being this topic about AI, and seeing how close we (humankind) are ourselves to create our own version of Geths (yep, technology advances like crazy), I thought this may be an interesting read (pretty long, but worth it):

 

http://waitbutwhy.co...volution-1.html

 

http://waitbutwhy.co...volution-2.html

 

Only read the second article. The malicious AI sounds quite a bit like the Catayst. :? 


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#124
Kurt M.

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Gigabyte gourmet: AI robot learns to cook just by watching YouTube videos

 

...and I ask you. How long will it take from that to this?

 

I mean, that robot is already smarter than A LOT of people :D