964 réponses à ce sujet

[stop_him]

It did to me, honestly. I mean, that might be my meta-gaming talking, but I found Morrigan very believable in her claims. And to be fair she doesn't say she knows more than everyone else EVER. She's just of the opinion that she's most knowledgeable of the people there and available to drink the well. Which you can disagree with. Probably will, if you're a First.

 

My Lavellan was a hunter, and Solas was the only other mage in the group, and he was being him and not giving her alternatives. Morrigan was a mage, clearly expressed an interest in preserving and understanding old magics, and seemed to know a great deal about elven magic in particular, if her artifacts at the winter palace and her possession of a working eluvian she'd actually managed to restore herself were taken into account.

 

Taking everything I'd seen and heard from Morrigan, from the palace till the temple, made it clear she definitely knew more than my Lavellan and her companions did. (Except for Solas, but he wasn't talking.) Again, if you are a clan First, you can make an argument that you think you know more than she does. It doesn't necessarily mean you do or you don't, but Morrigan doesn't come off as a know-nothing either way.

 

I think my issue with Morrigan, is that Bioware CHOSE to make her "more knowledgeable." (However, as we learn throughout the Arbor Wilds quest, Morrigan really isn't THAT informed. Morrigan was wrong about what Corypheus was after, she was wrong about the elven Gods being real, she was wrong about her mother, and she was wrong about the curse" of the well.)

 

I'm also not a fan of Morrigan becoming the inheritor of all the history of the elves--the devs have stated that Dalish elves were inspired by people of the First Nations, and traditionally, First Nation people have been poorly represented in media. 

 

I like Morrigan as a character, but I don't like some of the choices Bioware decided to go with. I sometimes think "Western" based story-writers should write what they know. Otherwise, it just comes off as Tom Cruise as the Last Samurai.

[In Exile]

I think my issue with Morrigan, is that Bioware CHOSE to make her "more knowledgeable." (However, as we learn throughout the Arbor Wilds quest, Morrigan really isn't THAT informed. Morrigan was wrong about what Corypheus was after, she was wrong about the elven Gods being real, she was wrong about her mother, and she was wrong about the curse" of the well.)

 

I'm also not a fan of Morrigan becoming the inheritor of all the history of the elves--the devs have stated that Dalish elves were inspired by people of the First Nations, and traditionally, First Nation people have been poorly represented in media. 

 

I like Morrigan as a character, but I don't like some of the choices Bioware decided to go with. I sometimes think "Western" based story-writers should write what they know. Otherwise, it just comes off as Tom Cruise as the Last Samurai.

 

The point Bioware has repeatedly made with the Dalish is that their xenophobia is mistaken. They have no idea what their real culture - their predecessor culture - is like, and the game repeatedly undermines their entitled attitude  - that what they've invented has it right. Morrigan never claims - and isn't shown - to know more about Dalish culture than the Dalish.

 

It's suggest she has a keener understanding of some parts of old Elvhen culture - and principally the Eluvian. And that's all deconstructed with Solas anyway, as she is totally wrong about it. 

 

Here's a parallel. After the rise of communism in the Eastern bloc country my family is from, the Communist government essentially fabricated a national history for our people. There's a lot of "Western" archeology and history that basically undermines this historical theory. It would be culturally presumptive for the "West" to say what Communist culture during the 1940s-1990s was like, because they weren't there. But it's not presumptive to say that the fabricated history is BS.

 

The Dalish claim as part of their culture their ability to make true historical claims - but that's ridiculous. 

 

I think an important part of Elven culture - and we see this a lot with Merril's story - is to abandon their ridiculous ties to the past, and embrance their own culture and the need to really advance their people. A huge tension between Merrill and Marethari is Marethari's weird veneration of the past (the Eluvians are unknown for a reason) versus Merril's progressive view (we need to uncover the past and use it to advance our people). 

 

In fact, the theme of letting go of the past that doesn't exist anymore is basically the whole story of Solas. Ironically, he rejects the Dalish (and they reject him) because each venerates the wrong past. 

[Contraire]

Why do other people's elves not pump Morrigan for more information about elven lore after she reveals that she knows so much, yet doesn't reveal anything of what that actually is? I've been trying to figure this out, but it's not easy.

I don't remember exactlly in which order things go, but at one point if you explore Mythal's temple, Morrigan goes on to talk about rituals the Dalish supposedly perform before "hunting humans," and that was such a perfect piece of blood libel my Lavellan just threw a barrel of salt over Morrigan's input, then dumped about 100% of it. 

 

Citation needed, Morrigan. And no, Chantry sources don't count.

[Qun00]

Morrigan does believe to know more than the Dalish. Then you might say "But the Inquisitor is only one person". Yes, but s/he hasn't done anything that shows lack of knowledge and yet the former assumes that is the case.

[Gervaise]

Morrigan's story probably comes off the back of the attitude that PW has the Dalish War leader displays in Masked Empire.   He suggests to Michel that they might play a game of Fen'Harel's Teeth with him, which is a rather barbaric way of dealing with prisoners that involves hunting them.     However, it may also be that some clans remember the old ways of Andruil rather too well, since the ancient writing in the Temple speaks of how she "grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts".   Since all elves were meant to be immortal, I assume this text can only refer to Anduril hunting the newly arrived humans.  

 

The Lavellan clan are far more civilised Dalish but I have to admit that those who are not may actually be far closer to what their ancestors were.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Morrigan's story probably comes off the back of the attitude that PW has the Dalish War leader displays in Masked Empire.   He suggests to Michel that they might play a game of Fen'Harel's Teeth with him, which is a rather barbaric way of dealing with prisoners that involves hunting them.     However, it may also be that some clans remember the old ways of Andruil rather too well, since the ancient writing in the Temple speaks of how she "grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts".   Since all elves were meant to be immortal, I assume this text can only refer to Anduril hunting the newly arrived humans.  

 

The Lavellan clan are far more civilised Dalish but I have to admit that those who are not may actually be far closer to what their ancestors were.

See, that's what I thought Morrigan was referencing, as well. Andruil could have been hunting dwarves, too, possibly. But it was likely humans, maybe the ancestors of the Avvar, as opposed to the Numeronians (or w/e the Tevinter ancestors were called) that, in theory, came to the continent* a lot later. And I doubt Andruil hunted alone all the time. Her followers likely took part.

 

*Of course, I'm assuming there that Andruil's territory is on the continent of Thedas. For all we know her territory was on the other side of the Tirashan or across a sea, only accessible cus Eluvians.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think Andruil's practice of hunting people probably applied to elves. The message in the Dread Wolf's sanctuary to his liberated slaves is that "Fen'harel is as mortal as any of you."

[Qun00]

You know... in mainstream fantasy, elves are generally seen as either mages or archers. Even if you google "elven warrior", most images will feature elves wielding a bow. It's interesting that Dragon Age swims against the tide and believes wholeheartedly in its slender knights.

There is a fair number of them in DAO's clans. DA2 takes it even further by having Merril's clan consist almost entirely of Dalish warriors. Important named characters like Tamlen, Fenarel, Ariane and the default HoF also count themselves among them.

That said, I wonder if that amounts to much when you consider that the emerald knights were completely massacred.

[vertigomez]

You know... in mainstream fantasy, elves are generally seen as either mages or archers. Even if you google "elven warrior", most images will feature elves wielding a bow. It's interesting that Dragon Age swims against the tide and believes wholeheartedly in its slender knights.

There is a fair number of them in DAO's clans. DA2 takes it even further by having Merril's clan consist almost entirely of Dalish warriors. Important named characters like Tamlen, Fenarel, Ariane and the default HoF also count themselves among them.

Fenris, too. Though I guess he's sort of a special case.

It makes sense to me and I'm glad DA bucked the trend on this one. I get confused when people say elves don't "look" like warriors, because if that's the case... why would a human ever be a warrior when the average qunari is so much bigger and stronger than them? Because they're good at it. Because they were trained to do it. Because every fighting force needs its tanks.

I would like to see more elven warriors as companions. We've mostly had mages and rogues.

That said, I wonder if that amounts to much when you consider that the emerald knights were completely massacred.

Eh, every other warrior faction in this series gets massacred in droves, as well. I wouldn't hold it against them.

[Ghost Gal]

@Qun00: You can thank Tolkien for that.

 

Yahtzee explains it pretty well in his DAO review: "There's something terribly weird about the standard fantasy setting, not least of which that 'Standard Fantasy Setting' can be uttered completely without irony. Look at us; we're a civilization so steeped in escapism that we've managed to find mundanity in something that doesn't exist and never will... Why is it accepted fact that elves fire bows and arrows and commune with trees? That was Tolkien's thing; without him, elves would just about be qualified to sell Rice Krispies."

 

What I find funny is that before Tolkien published his works, elves were commonly depicted (in the Victorian Era and early 20th century) as either The Fair Folk or silly, childish, and fairy-like. While he depicted them as silly and fairy-liked in The Hobbit, when it came time to write a sequel he was tired of the fantasy genre being almost purely whimsical and aimed a children, so he wrote the kind of serious, adult, epic fantasy he wanted to read. To that end, he wrote elves the way he wanted to see them depicted by others; serious, adult, and respectable, but also benevolent and still with that connection to magic and nature that's present with almost all elves through the ages. (It helps that Tolkien loved nature and hated industry, before society's backlash against environmentalism.) Ironically, after Tolkien most people have just blindly copied the way he depicted elves, with some many people rebelling against the "standard fantasy elf" inspired by his elves, which he wrote because he was tired of the way elves were commonly depicted in his time. 

[Contraire]

Morrigan's story probably comes off the back of the attitude that PW has the Dalish War leader displays in Masked Empire.   He suggests to Michel that they might play a game of Fen'Harel's Teeth with him, which is a rather barbaric way of dealing with prisoners that involves hunting them.     However, it may also be that some clans remember the old ways of Andruil rather too well, since the ancient writing in the Temple speaks of how she "grew tired of hunting mortal men and beasts".   Since all elves were meant to be immortal, I assume this text can only refer to Anduril hunting the newly arrived humans.  

 

The Lavellan clan are far more civilised Dalish but I have to admit that those who are not may actually be far closer to what their ancestors were.

If all the evidence we have of Dalish hunting humans is 1)one instance of a threat made to intimidate*, and 2)MYTH (about the super-powerful woman that was going to be remembered as goddess of the hunt and who was probably not above being flattered by exaggerations of her exploits), I'm going to keep on calling Morrigan's little tale blood libel.

 

*and maybe not even based in reality instead of stereotypes: see Merrill's statement that "we don't frolic in the trees, the trees would be jealous". Dalish have a fearsome stereotype? I can grok why a war leader would work it.

 

We have zero evidence that Dalish today perform human hunting.

[Qun00]

Fenris, too. Though I guess he's sort of a special case.
It makes sense to me and I'm glad DA bucked the trend on this one. I get confused when people say elves don't "look" like warriors, because if that's the case... why would a human ever be a warrior when the average qunari is so much bigger and stronger than them? Because they're good at it. Because they were trained to do it. Because every fighting force needs its tanks.
I would like to see more elven warriors as companions. We've mostly had mages and rogues.

Eh, every other warrior faction in this series gets massacred in droves, as well. I wouldn't hold it against them.

I'd like to believe that it works because a Dalish warrior's technique/swordsmanship is so good that s/he doesn't need brute strength to win.

I don't like it when people use agility as an argument because that sounds more like a reason to be a dual wielding rogue instead.

@Qun00: You can thank Tolkien for that.

Yahtzee explains it pretty well in his DAO review: "There's something terribly weird[/size] about the standard fantasy setting, not least of which that 'Standard Fantasy Setting' can be uttered completely without irony. Look at us; we're a civilization so steeped in escapism that we've managed to find mundanity in something that doesn't exist and never will... Why is it accepted fact that elves fire bows and arrows and commune with trees? That was Tolkien's thing; without him, elves would just about be qualified to sell Rice Krispies."

What I find funny is that before Tolkien published his works, elves were commonly depicted (in the Victorian Era and early 20th century) as either The Fair Folk or silly, childish, and fairy-like. While he depicted them as silly and fairy-liked in The Hobbit, when it came time to write a sequel he was tired of the fantasy genre being almost purely whimsical and aimed a children, so he wrote the kind of serious, adult, epic fantasy he wanted to read. To that end, he wrote elves the way he wanted to see them depicted by others; serious, adult, and respectable, but also benevolent and still with that connection to magic and nature that's present with almost all elves through the ages. (It helps that Tolkien loved nature and hated industry, before society's backlash against environmentalism.) Ironically, after Tolkien most people have just blindly copied the way he depicted elves, with some many people rebelling against the "standard fantasy elf" inspired by his elves, which he wrote because he was tired of the way elves were commonly depicted in his time.

I'm well aware of that. Personally, I believe in preserving the old myth while expanding beyond its boundaries.

[Qun00]

The choice of vallaslin is always interesting as the reasons can vary greatly. And sometimes it can be amusing

Dalish elves may choose Falon'din because they've lost someone or June because he supposedly taught them how to survive. But Ghilain'nain wearers? It's just hilarious. "I'll choose this vallaslin because halla are pretty!! <3".

And then there are unusual and unexpected choices you can see in some examples. The weirdest of them all is Keeper Hawen. You're a mage, dude! Why are you wearing Andruil?

[Gervaise]

What Tolkein used was the much older representation of the fair folk both in Norse and Celtic legends.   In the old Irish legends the Tuatha de Dannan were the ancient fairy folk of Ireland and they were anything but twee.   They are powerful sorcerers and warriors, aided by three witches, including Morrigan, who is a shape shifter and can turn into a crow/raven.   In Welsh legend they are the Tylwyth teg (the beautiful family), although interestingly enough the literal translation of elf is ellyll but the meaning of that is actually fiend.   That probably reflects the fact that there were two types of elf/fairy, as found in the Norse sagas too, the good ones and the bad ones.   In Tolkein the good ones are the elves and the corrupted ones are the orcs.     In all the old folk legends the fairy folk are powerful, magical creatures that you cross at your peril and get involved in a lot of battles that involve martial skills as well as magic.   Shakespeare also drew off the old folk legends in his depiction of Oberon and Titania in a Midsummer Nights Dream.

 

One of Tolkein's short stories, Smith of Wootton Major, actually deals with the diminishing of the fairy folk into cute figures that appeal to children.   A boy attends the annual village party for the children where they are presented with a cake with a fairy queen on top.    When he is older he actually meets the fairy queen and feels awkward and ashamed of how the village treat her memory but she says that it is better to be remembered as a doll on top of a cake than not at all.

[In Exile]

The choice of vallaslin is always interesting as the reasons can vary greatly. And sometimes it can be amusing

Dalish elves may choose Falon'din because they've lost someone or June because he supposedly taught them how to survive. But Ghilain'nain wearers? It's just hilarious. "I'll choose this vallaslin because halla are pretty!! <3".

And then there are unusual and unexpected choices you can see in some examples. The weirdest of them all is Keeper Hawen. You're a mage, dude! Why are you wearing Andruil?

 

Have we actually ever had any confirmation of the vallaslin? 

[Reznore57]

Have we actually ever had any confirmation of the vallaslin? 

 

We did .One of the lead artist ,Matt his name escape me at the moment , released a picture of the vallaslin of DAI with the name of the gods they belong to.

[Qun00]

Most designs are hilariously obvious, like Andruil with the bow in the middle and Dirthamen with the raven symbol.

What Tolkein used was the much older representation of the fair folk both in Norse and Celtic legends.   In the old Irish legends the Tuatha de Dannan were the ancient fairy folk of Ireland and they were anything but twee.   They are powerful sorcerers and warriors, aided by three witches, including Morrigan, who is a shape shifter and can turn into a crow/raven.   In Welsh legend they are the Tylwyth teg (the beautiful family), although interestingly enough the literal translation of elf is ellyll but the meaning of that is actually fiend.   That probably reflects the fact that there were two types of elf/fairy, as found in the Norse sagas too, the good ones and the bad ones.   In Tolkein the good ones are the elves and the corrupted ones are the orcs.     In all the old folk legends the fairy folk are powerful, magical creatures that you cross at your peril and get involved in a lot of battles that involve martial skills as well as magic.   Shakespeare also drew off the old folk legends in his depiction of Oberon and Titania in a Midsummer Nights Dream.
 
One of Tolkein's short stories, Smith of Wootton Major, actually deals with the diminishing of the fairy folk into cute figures that appeal to children.   A boy attends the annual village party for the children where they are presented with a cake with a fairy queen on top.    When he is older he actually meets the fairy queen and feels awkward and ashamed of how the village treat her memory but she says that it is better to be remembered as a doll on top of a cake than not at all.

Corrupted elves? Ahh, so that is where TES got the Aldmer becoming Orsimer idea.

[In Exile]

We did .One of the lead artist ,Matt his name escape me at the moment , released a picture of the vallaslin of DAI with the name of the gods they belong to.

 

I'm aware of that, but I thought that was unofficially done by the art team. I recall there was a post floating around on twitter that they might be doing something more official?

 

Most designs are hilariously obvious, like Andruil with the bow in the middle and Dirthamen with the raven symbol.

 

I'm not sure we have enough communication between the art team & character designers in a Bioware game to really draw these conclusions, and it's a serious flaw in their games.

[Vit246]

The choice of vallaslin is always interesting as the reasons can vary greatly. And sometimes it can be amusing

Dalish elves may choose Falon'din because they've lost someone or June because he supposedly taught them how to survive. But Ghilain'nain wearers? It's just hilarious. "I'll choose this vallaslin because halla are pretty!! <3".

And then there are unusual and unexpected choices you can see in some examples. The weirdest of them all is Keeper Hawen. You're a mage, dude! Why are you wearing Andruil?

 

Well, Gilan'nain is also a patron of navigation, so in theory, the elf will never get lost, literally and metaphorically. 

Andruil, well, she's a bit of a nature loving treehugger, and she's got the code of the Way of Three Trees, which is applicable to nearly everybody.

[Reznore57]

I'm aware of that, but I thought that was unofficially done by the art team. I recall there was a post floating around on twitter that they might be doing something more official?

 

 

It was official , found the link to Matt Rhodes (!) blog :http://mattrhodesart...ed-his-override, the picture got the EA/Bioware trademark at the bottom .And the artist had to ask permission to publish those.

[Qun00]

Just one thing, though. For the longest time, people believed the Falon'din one was Mythal back in Origins. So Mythal's old design actually is the one we see Tamlen and Zathrian wearing, right?

[In Exile]

Just one thing, though. For the longest time, people believed the Falon'din one was Mythal back in Origins. So Mythal's old design actually is the one we see Tamlen and Zathrian wearing, right?

I'm not following your post exactly. The one we see Zathrian wear is the Falon'din one. Well, close enough to one. And when you think about Zathrian's story, it's a fitting one to wear.

[Qun00]

It can't be Falon'din because THIS is Falon'din, which already existed in this form in DAO.

[Mistic]

And here I thought Zathrian's was Dirthamen. Now, could his be Mythal or Ghilan'nain? Or is it indeed Dirthamen? Some tattoos are easy to recognize in DA:O thank's to what we know in DA:I, but others have very different designs.

[Qun00]

A bettee question would be what vallaslin Merril and Hahren Paiven were wearing. That is what solves the puzzle.