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Arlathvhen: A Place to Discuss Your Elven Character, History & Culture


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#501
Ghost Gal

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And where do we suggest that they claim that their culture is "a pure, perfect, complete representation of true Elvhen culture" or that they think they have all the answers? 

 

His problem isn't that they have a culture - is that they think their culture is his culture

 

Problems start when Dalish believe themselves to know more than anyone else, hold their view is the right one and use it to decide what is really Elvhen and what not

 

Keep up.

 

Like I said, I've never seen any of this. I've never seen the Dalish claim that their culture is ancient elven culture, or that they alone know what's "really Elvhen and what [is] not." I think that they think that their culture is closer to the ancients than non-elven cultures or city elf culture, which is fairly accurate. I think that they think they're better authorities than most other modern cultures on what's ancient elven and what's not, which also not an unreasonable assumption. Except for sleeping ancient elves like Abelas, which no one, including the Dalish, knew were around, the Dalish do know more about ancient elfy stuff than other modern races and cultures since they spend a lot of time studying it. It's an entire culture of archaeologists and historians.

 

Not only shouldn't that be a good enough reason to be condescending, given that even they have to admit their knowledge is limited, but now we know a lot of that knowledge is wrong, starting from their gods. In an ironic twist, they were right about immortality but wrong about their loss of it. That last mistake is actually used to support a racist view of history and human-elven relations.

 

1) Thedas lore has established that every culture is condescending. The Qunari think all non-Qunari are literally "things" that need to be made people by being forced to the Qun. Andrastians believe everyone is blind and dumb but they alone have found The Truth from The Chant of Light, which is the only way to make savage, amoral heathens (which is everyone but them) good and enlightened. Both have launched religious wars over it. Orzammar believes they're better than all surfacers, automatically brand dwarves who leave for the surface "casteless" and won't let them back in the gates unless they wear a casteless brand. City elves even look down on the Dalish as "heathens and barbarians." Meanwhile, most Dalish don't try to bother or convert anyone, and most will come to the aid of a city elf they see in peril and/or take them in when city elves ask to join.

 

Being mildly haughty while still mostly keeping to themselves (with a few exceptions, as each clan is different), and while usually helping and taking in people of their race but not of their culture is a hell of a lot better than how most Orzammar dwarves treat surface dwarves, Qunari treat Tal-Vashoth, and Andrastian humans treat non-Andrastian humans.

 

2) Again, the Dalish don't claim that their knowledge is infallible. Most admit "this is all we've found" or "this is our best guess so far, but we're still looking for more," which means they're open to discovering more, and open to the possibility that knew knowledge could disprove or replace what they have now. That's part of learning, and the Dalish value learning.

 

3) The immortality thing was an honest mistake. It's not like humans ever let them back up and learn by testing their theory that it's incorrect. I also think the "racist view of history and human-elven relations" comes from humans--you know--chasing down, conquering, enslaving, and suppressing them twice. A history of slavery and subjugation from one people to another points to the oppressors making themselves look bad, not the oppressed being unreasonable for resenting being oppressed.

 

However, that hasn't stopped the Dalish from considering themselves "the last of the Elvhenan" (from DA:O's Dalish origin onwards), despite not being that at all. They are not the last, and their culture doesn't have much to do with actual Elvhenan. For someone like Solas, it must be as mortifying as it was for the Byzantines to see the Holy Roman Empire usurping their title of "Empire of the Romans".

 

I always interpreted the line "we are the last of the Elvhenan" to be what they strive to be, not what they think they already are.

 

Again, I think most of the gaps in the Dalish's knowledge come from honest mistakes, not willful ignorance. They honestly didn't know ancient elves were still around. They honestly didn't know exploring the Fade is a good way to learn about the past. They honestly didn't know that the danger of spirits comes from mortals' own negative expectations and emotions. By contrast, at least one group of ancient elves (Abelas) know about the Dalish, but they're not interested in making themselves known. Abelas' "I've seen your kind around. Shadows wearing vallaslin, you are not my people." Well, isn't that just special? You know they're getting it wrong, don't offer to share, then scorn them for not knowing. It's like someone with a light sneering at someone fumbling around with the dark, not sharing the light, and then sneer at them for fumbling around without light.

 

From where I'm sitting, they're doing the best they can with the limited information and resources they have, and the few people in a position to help either don't or try like once, and then look down on them for not knowing more. 

 

Actually, if you are polite with him, he apologizes to the Dalish Inquisitor in the very first conversation regarding that issue ("You are right, of course. The fault is mine for expecting what the Dalish could never truly accomplish").

 

Also, that conversation and the one in the first mission with a Dalish Inquisitor mention that his contacts with the Dalish haven't been very good, to say the least. From Dalish "feeling differently" on the subject of all elves being the same people to mocking his stories and him as a "flat-ear", it's pretty evident that if knowledge-sharing was lacking, it wasn't precisely because Solas wasn't willing ("At least you are asking. That is something. I will answer as I can").

 

Yes, and Solas' apology in that first conversation is back-handed and condescending. "The fault is mine for expecting what the Dalish could never truly accomplish." He might as well say "the fault is mine for expecting poor stupid monkeys to learn algebra. I should have known they're too stupid and incapable of learning such complex concepts such as myself."

 

If that was his bedside manner for past attempts at teaching others, small wonder they didn't listen.

 

A Dalish Inqusitor can even call him out for not bothering to help elves but then look down on them for not knowing as much as him. I remember at one point when Solas gets in on his "If I'd try to teach them, they wouldn't listen," spiel, but the Inquisitor can basically tell him that he's "already decided their reaction for them." He approached a few in the past, it didn't work out, therefore he's decided that they all wouldn't listen, they'd all reject him, therefore he shouldn't bother reaching out.

 

(Although his huge elven spy network and massive amount of of followers after Trespasser shows that this is either a lie or incorrect. The elves do want to listen and accept help.)


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#502
MisterJB

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I'm curious, please indulge me.

 

Let's assume that if Solas suceeds, the modern elves will automatically become as the ancient one. Immortal, magical, etc. And he will be given the power to reshape Thedas into what he remembers.

However, the lack of a Veil will be anathema to anyone not an elf and 99% of them will die on their own with the remaining 1% being at the mercy of Solas' elves.

 

Would you go for it?



#503
Hellion Rex

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I'm curious, please indulge me.

 

Let's assume that if Solas suceeds, the modern elves will automatically become as the ancient one. Immortal, magical, etc. And he will be given the power to reshape Thedas into what he remembers.

However, the lack of a Veil will be anathema to anyone not an elf and 99% of them will die on their own with the remaining 1% being at the mercy of Solas' elves.

 

Would you go for it?

Definitely not. The time of the ancient elves is over. Their culture fell, and I'm certainly glad to see it gone. 



#504
Xilizhra

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I'm curious, please indulge me.

 

Let's assume that if Solas suceeds, the modern elves will automatically become as the ancient one. Immortal, magical, etc. And he will be given the power to reshape Thedas into what he remembers.

However, the lack of a Veil will be anathema to anyone not an elf and 99% of them will die on their own with the remaining 1% being at the mercy of Solas' elves.

 

Would you go for it?

If the Titans can be reawakened in the process, the dwarves should be fine. Humans and qunari... that'll take some thought, but they can survive in the Crossroads. It doesn't seem at all impossible to organize... well, another Long Walk to safety in the Crossroads and return to Thedas proper once we better know how to survive.



#505
In Exile

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If the Titans can be reawakened in the process, the dwarves should be fine. Humans and qunari... that'll take some thought, but they can survive in the Crossroads. It doesn't seem at all impossible to organize... well, another Long Walk to safety in the Crossroads and return to Thedas proper once we better know how to survive.

 

We see a lot of evidence that the dwarves, whatever they were when they were tied with a Titan, was not necessarily a good or free thing at all. Being made subordinate to some kind if immortal controlling hive mind doesn't seem particularly great.

 

As for the pocket dimensions, well, ignoring the fact that Solas' genocide is going to come unbeknownst to Thedas, and those places like the Crossroads very clearly cannot actually support a meaningful population (owing to their lack of things like food and water), the kind of mass death you'd see (if you could even logistically organize a mass displacement) would pretty much be what Solas does anyway. 

 

Doesn't work. Solas death means a lot of mass dying. And we don't know if modern elves could even survive it. 


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#506
Xilizhra

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We see a lot of evidence that the dwarves, whatever they were when they were tied with a Titan, was not necessarily a good or free thing at all. Being made subordinate to some kind if immortal controlling hive mind doesn't seem particularly great.

 

As for the pocket dimensions, well, ignoring the fact that Solas' genocide is going to come unbeknownst to Thedas, and those places like the Crossroads very clearly cannot actually support a meaningful population (owing to their lack of things like food and water), the kind of mass death you'd see (if you could even logistically organize a mass displacement) would pretty much be what Solas does anyway. 

 

Doesn't work. Solas death means a lot of mass dying. And we don't know if modern elves could even survive it. 

Which is why we need to learn more about Solas' plan, what it entails, and if its effects can be alleviated.



#507
Hellion Rex

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Which is why we need to learn more about Solas' plan, what it entails, and if its effects can be alleviated.

And if they can't, what then?

#508
Hellion Rex

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If the Titans can be reawakened in the process, the dwarves should be fine. Humans and qunari... that'll take some thought, but they can survive in the Crossroads. It doesn't seem at all impossible to organize... well, another Long Walk to safety in the Crossroads and return to Thedas proper once we better know how to survive.

We don't know for sure about humans and Qunari in the Crossroads, as we have yet to see them in there for truly extended amounts of time, especially not for as long as you are probably intending.

#509
In Exile

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Which is why we need to learn more about Solas' plan, what it entails, and if its effects can be alleviated.

 

I'm pretty sure we already know all we need. Solas is horrified at the scale of death, and he views the path as evil. Every time he talks about it, it's with a grim determination and a clear committed to the fact that he's just catapulted himself over the moral event horizon. It's why he refuses Cole. 


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#510
Jedi Master of Orion

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Unlike the Dalish legends of the Dread Wolf, Solas does not seem like someone who would go out of his way to kill people if he didn't have to.

 

Innocent lives are of no consequence him when forming his plans, but I would think he also wouldn't intentionally kill as many people as possible without a reason.



#511
Hellion Rex

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If we are to end an elven deity, my question is how? If that's our endgame, how in the world are we to do it? Since he drained Mythal, he's been using magic on a scale beyond that of a normal mage. Heaven help us if he can pull a Horcrux like Mythal too.

#512
Hellion Rex

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Unlike the Dalish legends of the Dread Wolf, Solas does not seem like someone who would go out of his way to kill people if he didn't have to.

And yet he doesn't "have to" lol. He could let us kill him and put an end to this evil plan of his. :P

#513
Xilizhra

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And if they can't, what then?

I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. But restoring the world to its natural state... is sorely tempting.

 

 

I'm pretty sure we already know all we need. Solas is horrified at the scale of death, and he views the path as evil. Every time he talks about it, it's with a grim determination and a clear committed to the fact that he's just catapulted himself over the moral event horizon. It's why he refuses Cole. 

Solas is also not always correct about everything. In his attempt to steel himself for this, he may have overlooked something. He even wants to be proven wrong.



#514
Jedi Master of Orion

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And yet he doesn't "have to" lol. He could let us kill him and put an end to this evil plan of his. :P

 

You know what I mean, though.


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#515
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Solas is also not always correct about everything. In his attempt to steel himself for this, he may have overlooked something. He even wants to be proven wrong.

 

If we go down that road, he might just be wrong about it every being possible to reverse what he did to the elves, even if he removes the Veil. You either take him at his word as to the consequence, or you doubt it al. 



#516
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If we are to end an elven deity, my question is how? If that's our endgame, how in the world are we to do it? Since he drained Mythal, he's been using magic on a scale beyond that of a normal mage. Heaven help us if he can pull a Horcrux like Mythal too.

 

It's not obvious that Solas is a deity in the same way that the rest of the Evanuris were gods. I mean, none of them are divine, but by the sound of it Solas was not a contemporary with the Evanuris, and instead came to have a kind of standing with them because of the rebellion he orchestrated. 



#517
Hellion Rex

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I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. But restoring the world to its natural state... is sorely tempting.

The "natural state" according to the elves. A world ruled by mages who enslaved those below them.



#518
Hellion Rex

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You know what I mean, though.

I know. Twas a joke lol.



#519
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The "natural state" according to the elves. A world ruled by mages who enslaved those below them.

 

A world of mages. An important distinction. The elves had classes - and maybe even races, the way we do IRL - but it's not clear there really ever were different kinds of beings otherwise, apart from what Solas implies about the Evanuris being something more than just self-styled god kings/queens ala Pharaohs. 



#520
MisterJB

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Keep in mind that the question wasn't "if the effects can be alleviated, would you go for it" but rather "if it would turn Thedas into what it was in Solas' time but kill 99% of the other races, would you go for it".

 

Thank you for answering, Hellion Rex.


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#521
Hellion Rex

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A world of mages. An important distinction. The elves had classes - and maybe even races, the way we do IRL - but it's not clear there really ever were different kinds of beings otherwise, apart from what Solas implies about the Evanuris being something more than just self-styled god kings/queens ala Pharaohs. 

Excuse me, let me make a small correction to my original statement.

 

A world ruled by "super-powerful" mages.  :P

 

One thing I would like to know is if whether all the elves held magic of some sort and how strong they were determined slavery or freedom. Or the mages of the world enslaved non-magi. Other than Dalish legends, I'm pretty sure no one has confirmed that all elves had magic.



#522
Jedi Master of Orion

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It's not obvious that Solas is a deity in the same way that the rest of the Evanuris were gods. I mean, none of them are divine, but by the sound of it Solas was not a contemporary with the Evanuris, and instead came to have a kind of standing with them because of the rebellion he orchestrated. 

 

I think it is more likely that he was a contemporary of them. He and Mythal were friends, his statue is in the Temple of Mythal alongside those of all the Evanuris, and he was believed to be a god by the people of that age.



#523
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Excuse me, let me make a small correction to my original statement.

 

A world ruled by "super-powerful" mages.  :P

 

One thing I would like to know is if whether all the elves held magic of some sort and how strong they were determined slavery or freedom. Or the mages of the world enslaved non-magi. Other than Dalish legends, I'm pretty sure no one has confirmed that all elves had magic.

Solas confirmed it. By implication. He tells us all elves were immortal, and that immortality was just another consequence of the magic they wielded, not a product. And I think we've seen a culture like that of the old elvhen: Tevinter, that according to PW is a culture created by the humans moving in on elven lands and filing down the ears, so to speak.



#524
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I think it is more likely that he was a contemporary of them. He and Mythal were friends, his statue is in the Temple of Mythal alongside those of all the Evanuris, and he was believed to be a god by the people of that age.

These beings are immortal. Solas could have been around for millennia - for a timescale so large you and I could not even comprehend it as a figure - and yet have still been born at a time when the Evanuris ruled Thedas since time immemorial. When you talk about immortality, the usual signposts for time no longer have any meaning. 

 

Based on what Solas tells us - that he was born in a small town, once, a long time ago - and based on how he came to prominence (the rebellion, not fighting in the war that the Evanuris came to be famed in) I think he - like that one other ancient elf that was raised to the ranks of the Evanuris after the fact - was not their contemporary. 



#525
Hellion Rex

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Question 2: Everyone, no matter the race, in Thedas connects to the Veil and the Fade while sleeping. What was it like for humans in other corners of world before the Veil went up?