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[Reznore57]

Question 2: Everyone, no matter the race, in Thedas connects to the Veil and the Fade while sleeping. What was it like for humans in other corners of world before the Veil went up?

 

Could have been the same really , just with more spirits etc frolicking around.

Elves it seems are naturally more magical , more in touch with the fade , if humans weren't , well they wouldn't lost much when the veil went up.Possibly it was good for them ,if they were at the mercy of demons and stuff before.

 

But anyway my theory is humans weren't mages to begin with , they got magic in their bloodline by breeding with elves .

[Hellion Rex]

 

But anyway my theory is humans weren't mages to begin with , they got magic in their bloodline by breeding with elves .

But the first humans to come to Thedas already had magic, did they not?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

These beings are immortal. Solas could have been around for millennia - for a timescale so large you and I could not even comprehend it as a figure - and yet have still been born at a time when the Evanuris ruled Thedas since time immemorial. When you talk about immortality, the usual signposts for time no longer have any meaning. 

 

Based on what Solas tells us - that he was born in a small town, once, a long time ago - and based on how he came to prominence (the rebellion, not fighting in the war that the Evanuris came to be famed in) I think he - like that one other ancient elf that was raised to the ranks of the Evanuris after the fact - was not their contemporary. 

 

His rebellion was against them. How could he have been risen to their ranks after that? In fact since he had to tell the slaves he was freeing that he was not a god, then it suggests he was already considered one of them by then. 

 

The Evanuris also started out "normal" people.

[In Exile]

His rebellion was against them. How could he have been risen to their ranks after that? In fact since he had to tell the slaves he was freeing that he was not a god, then it suggests he was already considered one of them by then. 

 

The Evanuris also started out "normal" people.

 

He wasn't Fen'Harel - the "Dread Wolf" - until his rebellion. I read his statement that he had to tell slaves he was not a god another way - that they, so being used to worshiping their betters, wanted to worship him too, and he refused their adulation. 

 

Remember, Fen'Harel was never an Evanuris. He never rose to their rank. The Dalish consider him a god, and equivalent to the Forgotten Ones and the Evanuris. But that doesn't make it so, within the confines of the actual history. 

[In Exile]

Question 2: Everyone, no matter the race, in Thedas connects to the Veil and the Fade while sleeping. What was it like for humans in other corners of world before the Veil went up?

 

Why would we think humans wouldn't go to the Fade when they dream when there was a universal Fade? We have the codex from Trespasser that suggests that elves also went to the Fade. So just because there is a Veil that physically breaks up the Fade and locks it away, doesn't mean that there wasn't an actual divide (albeit a kind of metaphysical one) in the old world. 

[Hellion Rex]

He wasn't Fen'Harel - the "Dread Wolf" - until his rebellion. I read his statement that he had to tell slaves he was not a god another way - that they, so being used to worshiping their betters, wanted to worship him too, and he refused their adulation. 

 

Remember, Fen'Harel was never an Evanuris. He never rose to their rank. The Dalish consider him a god, and equivalent to the Forgotten Ones and the Evanuris. But that doesn't make it so, within the confines of the actual history. 

Hold up, I disagree vehemently. Pretty sure he started out as an Evanuris till the rest of the pantheon found cause to kick him out, thus giving rise to the Dread Wolf moniker.

[Hellion Rex]

Why would we think humans wouldn't go to the Fade when they dream when there was a universal Fade? We have the codex from Trespasser that suggests that elves also went to the Fade. So just because there is a Veil that physically breaks up the Fade and locks it away, doesn't mean that there wasn't an actual divide (albeit a kind of metaphysical one) in the old world. 

I'm not sure if I agree with that reasoning.

[Reznore57]

But the first humans to come to Thedas already had magic, did they not?

 

It's a theory.

My memory is fuzzy and tends to remember details fitting my ideas and put aside those which don't ...

But anyway what make me believe this is :

Somehow it seems humans started to have dreamers when they landed in Thedas.We know ancient elves had dreamers , so the only way I can imagine catching that "dreamer" disease is by breeding with elves.

In WOT1 (page 26) you can read the Neromanian believe to be the first human in Thedas (future Tevinter) were also the first human to practise magic .Now they could have had mages before of course , but I find that suspicious.

 

Those first humans , first to practise magic , also discovered blood magic after arriving in Thedas , on top of getting Dreamers after landing in Thedas.

They also have an history of tension with the elves from the very beginning.

 

Anyway what I assume happened is humans and elves didn't start fighting right away.The elves were in a bad shape , but humans were tribal without magic .Not a threat.

Then they started trading , breeding...and they figured out two things:

First humans got magic , yeah for humans!

Second elves were getting humans babies in the bargain.Erf for elves.

 

Elves decided to withdraw , Tevinter decided they loved that sweet elven blood for their future kids and blood magic...

[In Exile]

Hold up, I disagree vehemently. Pretty sure he started out as an Evanuris till the rest of the pantheon found cause to kick him out, thus giving rise to the Dread Wolf moniker.

 

Do we have any evidence at all? 

[Hellion Rex]

Do we have any evidence at all? 

None, but the way he speaks makes me think he was on board with all that stuff at first, while he was Evanuris, then when he began to rock the boat, they kicked him out.

[Patchwork]

My take on Solas/Fen'Harel's origin is that he's born in a small village, by nature he's a powerful Dreamer and the spirits sharing their knowledge as he wanders the world eventually makes him into a mage that can rival any individual Evanuris. He gets caught up in some wars, causes he passionately believes in, which brings him to the attention of the Evanuris and it's Mythal who sponsors him into joining their ranks.  

 

For a time he has all the trappings of an Evanuris, followers, vallaslin, territory etc but he finds he has more in common with the Forgotten Ones who despise that the Evanuris have brought into their own hype and truly believe themselves gods but instead of joining them he starts a rebellion. 

[Gervaise]

That whole "I was born in a small village" was just his cover story.   Solas' origins are far more likely to lie in the Fade.   There are so many hints both in game and in his biography in WoT2 that he identifies much more closely with spirits than with ordinary mortal beings.   When there was no Veil, spirits could pass back and forth as they wished.   Some chose to stay in the material world and as a result became more material, just like Cole.  Others passed over temporarily to interact with these material spirits but then returned after to the Fade.   Others never left the Fade (referred to as "our brethren of the air" in one of the writings we find in Trespasser because the Fade is thought of as the sky/air).       Just as modern mages have varying degrees of magical ability, so too did the ancient elves.   The most powerful in magic led them in a war and continue to lead afterwards.   When more spirits chose to join them in the material world, they taught them how to survive there (which is where the Dalish legends come from about the Creators teaching them hunting, crafting, weaving, etc)   Each elf showed their allegiance to their mentor and this may well have also given that Evanuris some sort of hold over them.   Ghilan'nain was an ordinary elf who showed such promise (and created such problems with her creations) that the others thought her worthy to join their ranks, being sponsored by Andruil.   

 

So it is entirely possible that Solas was another such new elf, who showed such promise, possibly giving insights on exploring the Fade, that he was admitted to the ranks of the Evanuris.    Alternatively, he may have been the upstart who "dared to fly in the shape of the Divine" and was punished by Elgar'nan into serving Mythal, being given the name Solas (Pride).     He may even have been bound to the form of a wolf for his service but Mythal later released him, or the injunction to serve was broken on her death.  That individual was originally a servant of Dirthamen who is associated with finding and guarding secrets, which would explain the trickster link.  Another idea has him being the spirit of Wisdom that Cole talks about who was called from the Fade to serve her (Mythal?) and became warped into Pride by his experiences.      Whatever the case I don't think he was ever a simple elf as we know them.

 

I'd also bet that he had some direct dealings with the Forgotten Ones.   The memories of the Dalish always have some element of truth in them and their legend states that he moved among both sides.    Probably the Creators did originally see him as a friend, hence their warning about his "fair words turning slowly to poison" but clearly they did not towards the end, so his "trickery" clearly involved far more than simply encouraging them to return to heaven (Arlathan?) while he arranged a truce with the other party, the Forgotten Ones.    The Forgotten Ones are linked to the Void and magic of the Void and I wouldn't be surprised if it was using this source that enabled him to blindside the Creators.

[In Exile]

Solas tells us stories about spirits tied to the land - ancient spirits, who were abandoned when the people who projected their emotions on them left. Solas could be a spirit and could be "born in a small village". He could, specifically, be a spirit born in a small village. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The most important thing I took away from the whole "Ancient Elves" thing, is that I think Elves themselves were originally more like spirits, just ones that couldn't fly. I figured this was the explanation for why they were immortal and possibly why they can't have children with non elves. That it's a holdover from their more ephemeral heritage. Hence I think the distinction between elves and spirits used to be much less significant than it is today.

[In Exile]

The most important thing I took away from the whole "Ancient Elves" thing, is that I think Elves themselves were originally more like spirits, just ones that couldn't fly. I figured this was the explanation for why they were immortal and possibly why they can't have children with non elves. That it's a holdover from their more ephemeral heritage. Hence I think the distinction between elves and spirits used to be much less significant than it is today.

They can have children with non-elves. That those children are also non-elves is quite different from not being able to have children with them. And I believe there is a suggestion that those children are, still, in some sense special (e.g. the theory that this leads to humans having magic?). 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "fly". 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Sorry, yeah, I worded that wrong. I know they can have children with non elves. But I meant that they can't pass on their race to their children, possibly because humans are of the more immutable material world.

 

One of the codex entries in the Fade Library describes spirits as "our brethren of the air" I figured this meant they could fly through the air like they the fade.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

 

We don't know for sure about humans and Qunari in the Crossroads, as we have yet to see them in there for truly extended amounts of time, especially not for as long as you are probably intending.

Not that she's a particularly average human example, but we do have Morrigan living in the Crossroads for several years (with Kieran if that's your jam). She seems fine so far.

 

One thing I would like to know is if whether all the elves held magic of some sort and how strong they were determined slavery or freedom. Or the mages of the world enslaved non-magi. Other than Dalish legends, I'm pretty sure no one has confirmed that all elves had magic.

There were no non-magi elves. They all had magic and a connection to the Fade, which was tied somehow to them all being immortal.

 

As for strength determining whether they were slaves or not, no idea. I mean, a strong mage can be born to a slave family. And then there's the idea that the elven poppulation may also have included spirits manifesting directly from the fade rather than being born and the varying power levels involved therein. Maybe they had chances occasionally to earn their freedom if they started out as slaves. The Dales made a gladitorial arena in honor of Elgar'nan. Wouldn't surprise me if there actually had been one back in the days of Arlathan. And gladiator arenas often include the ability for slaves to earn their freedom via fighting prowess...

[Gervaise]

I thought that "Our brethren of the air" meant pure spirits who have never left the Fade, which is also seen as the sky/air by the ancients.     The codex says these spirits would know far more about investigating the farthest reaches of the Fade but they are not inclined to do so or help others with the task because they just don't have the interest, which is presumably why they haven't bothered crossing over to the material world, which they are at liberty to do so because at the time there was no Veil.

 

Also everyone takes at face value Solas' assertion about slaves.   It is true there were servants but judging from Abelas they opted to serve willingly and were marked to show who they had allegiance to, which may also have placed them under their protection so other gods would leave them alone.   Abelas says you will be "bound as we are bound" to serve Mythal.  The same was probably true of the other gods.   It sounds like slavery but apart from his story about Falon'Din, there seems no indication it was enforced servitude, at least at the beginning.    The problem seems to have arisen when someone no longer wants to serve; then if they are not permitted to leave it becomes slavery.    It was these individuals who seem to have fled to the sanctuary provided by Fen'Harel, who then removed their vallaslin so they were no longer marked as belonging to anyone.   It is possible that the vallaslin itself allowed the master to have some sort of hold on their follower.

 

Was the bit about a gladiatorial arena attached to some artefact because it isn't in the source books?    If you recall, Mythal suggest that Elgar'nan and Falon'Din use champions to resolve a difference between them to avoid the conflict turning into civil war.    The arena in the Dales was probably reproducing something like this.   I'm pretty sure the Dalish legends are a great deal more extensive that we have been led to believe in game.    If the story about Fen'Harel shutting away the gods had been handed down from ancient times that I dare say some of those stories we saw in the library had managed to be passed on too.

 

The really gifted were able to be raised to godhood from the rank and file; look at Ghilan'nain.    She seemed to have liberty enough to create a multitude of creatures, presumably for her patron Andruil to hunt.   Then when they got out of control; Andruil does a trade off of godhood for the lives of the creatures.   That doesn't sound like a master dealing with a slave to me; a master would simply order their death and if the slave got uppity about it, off them too.   The relationship between the Evanuris and their followers seems a lot more complex than can be explained by the terms of master and slave.

[Medhia_Nox]

Solas tells us stories about spirits tied to the land - ancient spirits, who were abandoned when the people who projected their emotions on them left. Solas could be a spirit and could be "born in a small village". He could, specifically, be a spirit born in a small village. 

 

LOVE this idea... not specifically for Solas, but in general.

 

"If" this pertains to Solas... I think the question would be, was he born as a "Pride" demon?  Was he a "Wisdom" spirit named "Solas"?  Or... perhaps, was the person that added that "finishing touch" to give life to Fen'Harel the person who's form he took... and was that elf named Solas?  

[Dean_the_Young]

LOVE this idea... not specifically for Solas, but in general.

 

"If" this pertains to Solas... I think the question would be, was he born as a "Pride" demon?  Was he a "Wisdom" spirit named "Solas"?  Or... perhaps, was the person that added that "finishing touch" to give life to Fen'Harel the person who's form he took... and was that elf named Solas?  

 

Whatever it is, I imagine that Mythal had a hand in it. Solas seems to have had a special connection with her, and Mythal had her own connections and experiments (like the Titans), and so I could see Solas coming into form with Mythal, and really rebelling against the gods/starting the Veil after her murder proved how far gone the Evunaris were.

 

(I don't recall anything suggesting that Solas rebelled against Mythal, or while Mythal was around- but the timeline back then is still vague.)

[In Exile]

We see statues of Solas as Fen'Harel in the Temple of Mythal, and we get the codex entry on the idea of a "god of rebellion". While I would not go so far as to say that this necessarily means Solas rebelled while Mythal was alive (as those statues could have been erected later) it makes sense to me that he did so potentially earlier. There are also stories of him and the other Evanuris in that temple (one of Andruil hunting him I think?)

[Medhia_Nox]

What if Solas was created when the elves that served Mythal rebelled after her death?  
 

[In Exile]

Sorry, yeah, I worded that wrong. I know they can have children with non elves. But I meant that they can't pass on their race to their children, possibly because humans are of the more immutable material world.

One of the codex entries in the Fade Library describes spirits as "our brethren of the air" I figured this meant they could fly through the air like they the fade.

That's true for any non-elf race. And the "air" metaphor must refer to spirits - Cole who is convinced to stay a spirit talks about being "light enough" to return to the Fade. Although I think that is more about the ephemeral nature of a spirit.

DAI alludes a lot to what is "real" through Cole. I do think people who side with elves = spirits as a theory understate what it means to become corporeal (as Cole does in DA).

[Master Warder Z_]

What if Solas was created when the elves that served Mythal rebelled after her death?  
 

 

What if Solas was born of the innate evil baldness that is spawned from hair envy by all those who bare the shinny head of wickedness?

[Reznore57]

I think Solas might have started as a political puppet.

There's the codex about the "Sinner" a elf who shapeshifted into a dragon , it was reserved for the Gods , he asked justice from Mythal , he got tricked by another elven God into doing it...And she just turned away and let Elgarn'nan deal with it.

Elgar'nan is the God of SMash Grr Smash.And it's unlike Mythal to turn away , all the stories says she had no qualm about killing the unworthy.

It seems this might have caused a bit of trouble , there's some hints about a furious mob after the events.

 

What I imagine might have happened is Mythal was the one in charge , and she was the most beloved of the Gods.

The Evanuris wanted to get rid of her , and tried to turn the People against her.

That's where Solas comes in , a God more pro people  to appease the masses , and also so Mythal can have an ally in the Pantheon.