That difference in approval showed Femythal valued
Sign of Flemythal valuing knowledge, maybe? Closest way I can think of at the moment to describe what I mean. She didn't want blind obedience on account of her being powerful. She's happy when you show her respect if you know why you are doing so.
Might be more accurate to say valuing free will? Autonomy? Love/respect over fear? Informed consent? lol
Absolutely agree.
I don't understand why Flemeth was so determined to keep up the "I'm just an old woman" act in DAO, even in front of a Dalish Warden. She had no problem with revealing herself to Hawke. Well, at least as what she is known to be in the common legends.
The closest you can get in your meeting in DAO is, "If you're Flemeth, you must be very old and powerful". And her response is something along the lines of " why would you assume I am?".
I'm starting to think the writers hadn't come up with her connection to the Dalish as Asha'bellanar yet.
The first time we saw the "leafless tree" symbol was a very brief moment in the intro of DAO, in the artistic depiction of the origins of the darkspawn, and it made me wonder if Flemeth originally had something to do with... some entity in that. But then the same symbol was used for Mythal's vallaslin in DAI, when the decision had clearly been made; truth be told, I think that they had decided on the Mythal aspect by the time of Witch Hunt at least.
I don't understand why Flemeth was so determined to keep up the "I'm just an old woman" act in DAO, even in front of a Dalish Warden. She had no problem with revealing herself to Hawke. Well, at least as what she is known to be in the common legends.
The closest you can get in your meeting in DAO is, "If you're Flemeth, you must be very old and powerful". And her response is something along the lines of " why would you assume I am?".
I'm starting to think the writers hadn't come up with her connection to the Dalish as Asha'bellanar yet.
Why wouldn't she keep up the act?
It's pretty clear Mythal doesn't seek or desire recognition or adoration, or even the devotion of the Dalish. She doesn't particularly identify with the Dalish, and her reason for saving a Dalish Warden is the exact same as any other Warden- in hopes of getting Morrigan knocked up to preserve the Old God.
@Dean_the_Young: I would like, for just once, for the powerful being to not be obtuse. That isn't "wisdom".
"If you're Flemeth, you must be very old and powerful."
"Yes, I must be." would even be a better response.
Or even...
"More than some, less than others."
But personally... I'd love to see:
"Yes, I am powerful."
It's clear what the person implies... it's clear she's powerful. It's such a disservice to the audience to play stupid games like this... especially at this point in the genres evolution. We "know" the tricks... there wasn't a mystery. Either:
1) Turn her into a batty old witch with a lucky guess.
or
2) Be forthright about her power even if she doesn't divulge any more.
And, for Maker's sake... when a powerful being doesn't want to tell you something... just have them say it. Don't give stupid puzzles.
NOTE: Solas did this.. and I absolutely hated it, but only because he follows it with soap opera dialogue like: "It would be so easy to tell you." Shut up you imbecile. Just say: "I'm obviously not going to divulge my plans."
@Dean_the_Young: I would like, for just once, for the powerful being to not be obtuse. That isn't "wisdom".
"If you're Flemeth, you must be very old and powerful."
"Yes, I must be." would even be a better response.
Or even...
"More than some, less than others."
But personally... I'd love to see:
"Yes, I am powerful."
It's clear what the person implies... it's clear she's powerful. It's such a disservice to the audience to play stupid games like this... especially at this point in the genres evolution. We "know" the tricks... there wasn't a mystery. Either:
1) Turn her into a batty old witch with a lucky guess.
or
2) Be forthright about her power even if she doesn't divulge any more.
And, for Maker's sake... when a powerful being doesn't want to tell you something... just have them say it. Don't give stupid puzzles.
NOTE: Solas did this.. and I absolutely hated it, but only because he follows it with soap opera dialogue like: "It would be so easy to tell you." Shut up you imbecile. Just say: "I'm obviously not going to divulge my plans."
So what do you think of Flemeth's character, as a whole?
Why wouldn't she keep up the act?
It's pretty clear Mythal doesn't seek or desire recognition or adoration, or even the devotion of the Dalish. She doesn't particularly identify with the Dalish, and her reason for saving a Dalish Warden is the exact same as any other Warden- in hopes of getting Morrigan knocked up to preserve the Old God.
For the sake of consistency. She doesn't pretend to be an ordinary old woman in front of Hawke.
For the sake of consistency. She doesn't pretend to be an ordinary old woman in front of Hawke.
I think it's easy to see why the different treatment. With Hawke she didn't have any other choice but appear as a god-like dragon lady from the skies, because that's how she saved them. Can't start pretending to be a simple crazy old woman when everyone in the party has seen her in her glory.
I don't think it was surprising that Mythal/Flemeth ignored the Elves. Remember despite being "the best of them" she was still a tyrannical mage Lord who viewed people as property. She was essentially Lawful Evil while the rest of the Evanuris became Chaotic Evil and if I had to guess the Forgotten Ones were Neutral Evil, not caring for the Elves, but more concerned with themselves as opposed to Solas who wanted to free his people.
I'm not sure. True, they were god-like rulers who suppported slavery... but so were most Roman Emperors, including the much praised Five Good Emperors. Even someone like Solas speaks highly of her. More than any "if she doesn't care now it's because she didn't care in the past", I think that the trauma of being betrayed (and "killed"), and clinging to life for centuries, changed her priorities drastically. Then add that she's not Mythal alone, but also Flemeth, and any care she might have for her people took a back seat.
So what do you think of Flemeth's character, as a whole?
I really do like Flemeth. I force myself to ignore this character trait (the obtuse "wise" person) because it is a kind of default wisdom that seems to work more often than it does not.
At first, I hated DA2 Flemeth - but when I discovered that was her pretty much dropping the pretense of being a daffy old crone I appreciated it more (though I would have liked daffy old crone batter I think).
And now I'm REALLY ticked that they killed her off for Solas of all people... the king of obtuse wisdom.
Way beyond being a video game... his cagey responses in Tresspasser make it SO clear that he's not the all powerful being he claims to be. It's obvious people can stop him... but, he's too arrogant to think anyone is clever enough to actually "figure it out" - now, on a gaming level - of COURSE we're going to figure it out.
@Wulfram: I personally believe she also has seen the truth about Solas. That he has become the monsters he tried to stop. That he's willing to kill those who serve him... to manipulate those who call him friend... and to bring the world to the brink of extinction without giving even a second thought to what the world wants.
Replaying the game as a Dalish (because I wanted to give it a fair shake)
Solas comes off as even more of an ass. There's a conversation about the Dalish where you can ask why he doesn't teach them. Solas goes on about stupid children clinging to misperceptions. Then gives an example of what a Dalish would do with the knowledge.
You can say: "You're depriving him of choice by making it for him,"
Solas casually says: "Maybe I am".
He is exactly like he claims the Evanuris were.
And I think Flemeth knows it has is planning on taking him down.
The annoying thing for me is when the PC ought to know something but doesn't. That is the problem with Flemeth in DAO and a Dalish Warden. The Dalish have known for years about Asha'Bellanar and have no doubt discussed this at the Arlathaven, plus they come from Marethari's clan, so looking back on it, why did the Dalish Warden not at least have the opportunity to say, "Are you Asha'Bellanar?" By contrast the Dalish Inquisitor is allowed to say "I've heard of you." So either they hadn't decided back in DAO who exactly Flemeth was (Asha'Bellanar or Mythal) or the Dalish Warden simply looks stupid in hindsight.
Then we have Morrigan pontificating about matters concerning the Dalish in front of a Dalish Inquisitor. At least you are allowed to contradict her but it still seems daft that you wouldn't comment on these things yourself. For example, the statue of Fen'Harel in Mythal's Temple. It is only on the outskirts, just like in a Dalish camp where they have a statue of Fen'Harel looking outwards to ward off evil spirits and other enemies. So to me the statue in the Temple seemed no different; but it is left to Fen'Harel himself to object to Morrigan's assertions. Alternatively, since much of Dalish lore does have Fen'Harel as the betrayer of the Creators, why does the Dalish Inquisitor not have the option of agreeing with Morrigan?
What is also peculiar is the large number of ruins we come across and rock paintings and yet no one comments on them at all? I kept thinking, who painted these? If it was the Dalish, what is going on here? If it was someone earlier, what did the Dalish make of them when they actually occupied the Dales? As for all those wolf statues all over the place, what was going on there? They seem to be connected with Fen'Harel but also the Emerald Knights' wolf guardians. However, that huge statue overlooking the Exalted Plains had to have been Fen'Harel but who put it there? Surely not the Dalish. Yet why would his followers have raised such an enormous statue in his honour? Would that not go against his whole denial of godhood? Or was this evidence that there were at least some ancient elves who venerated him for banishing the Evanuris?
I really do like Flemeth. I force myself to ignore this character trait (the obtuse "wise" person) because it is a kind of default wisdom that seems to work more often than it does not.
At first, I hated DA2 Flemeth - but when I discovered that was her pretty much dropping the pretense of being a daffy old crone I appreciated it more (though I would have liked daffy old crone batter I think).
And now I'm REALLY ticked that they killed her off for Solas of all people... the king of obtuse wisdom.
Way beyond being a video game... his cagey responses in Tresspasser make it SO clear that he's not the all powerful being he claims to be. It's obvious people can stop him... but, he's too arrogant to think anyone is clever enough to actually "figure it out" - now, on a gaming level - of COURSE we're going to figure it out.
@Wulfram: I personally believe she also has seen the truth about Solas. That he has become the monsters he tried to stop. That he's willing to kill those who serve him... to manipulate those who call him friend... and to bring the world to the brink of extinction without giving even a second thought to what the world wants.
Replaying the game as a Dalish (because I wanted to give it a fair shake)
Solas comes off as even more of an ass. There's a conversation about the Dalish where you can ask why he doesn't teach them. Solas goes on about stupid children clinging to misperceptions. Then gives an example of what a Dalish would do with the knowledge.
You can say: "You're depriving him of choice by making it for him,"
Solas casually says: "Maybe I am".
He is exactly like he claims the Evanuris were.
And I think Flemeth knows it has is planning on taking him down.
The annoying thing for me is when the PC ought to know something but doesn't.
<snip>
Same here, I hate PC forced derp. The epic derp that is a Dalish inquisitor in the Temple of Mythal got me out of my nerves, I was all the time thinking "Let me say somethiiiiiiiing!!!"
Solas never really pretends to be a hero. See his own comments regarding the slave rebellion - he hints that he twisted the movement to his ends, and that it was never just about freeing the slaves.
He also never claimed to be a god. People on this forum assume he's an equal or contemporary of the Evanuris, but he doesn't say that himself.
And, technically, he's already admitted he's exactly like the Evanuris - he's willing to destroy a world and kill everyone in it to achieve his ends.
I think Solas deep down knows that he's become dangerously close to what the Evanuris where, but he still thinks his good intentions make him fundamentally different from them.
Solas never really pretends to be a hero. See his own comments regarding the slave rebellion - he hints that he twisted the movement to his ends, and that it was never just about freeing the slaves.
He also never claimed to be a god. People on this forum assume he's an equal or contemporary of the Evanuris, but he doesn't say that himself.
And, technically, he's already admitted he's exactly like the Evanuris - he's willing to destroy a world and kill everyone in it to achieve his ends.
He certainly doesn't think he's a monster... he says so in his: "I am not like Corypheus..." line.
Solas not only has stories where he's hunted, unsuccessfully by Andruil, and he not only tricks the Evanuris and seals them away forever - but also the Forgotten Ones.
What does it matter what his "label" is?
And even if you and I know he's just like the Evanuris... I don't find any lines Solas says to indicate he's aware of the comparison.
And even if you and I know he's just like the Evanuris... I don't find any lines Solas says to indicate he's aware of the comparison.
Could you rephrase this line, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by it?
In Exile said that it's clear that Solas is very much like the Evanuris he claims to hate... what I was saying is that I don't believe Solas says anything that indicates he's aware he's "just like them."
In fact... though I hate the idea, I think this is going to be key in "redeeming" him. Getting him to realize exactly how far he's gone.
Basically he's a literal translation of the Nietzsche quote: "Beware that, when fighting monsters you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
Yeah Solas doesn't see himself as an Evanuris at all.
At best he might think he's some kind of anti hero , for him his goal is noble.
He wants to restore the elves he destroyed.
When it comes to the actual price of doing so , numerous time you can see him bullsh**** himself into thinking it is acceptable.
First when Felassan try to tell him the current mortals should have a chance , Solas killed him on the spot , not even letting the man talk and explain himself fully.
Then we know he kept on telling himself things weren't " real" , people were "tranquil" so he's making everyone a favor by killing them.
When he sees his argument isn't quite working anymore , he hops on "well I will kill people but I won't make them suffer."
Solas is the king of hilarious pity party , his greatest fear is not the elves won't ever recover , or being wrong and killing thousand of people for nothing ...no he's scared of dying alone....but then he kills one of his oldest friend , he's willing to kill the friends he made in Inquisition , he's willing to kill his elven lover.... 
If he wanted to kill Lavellan, he could've turned her into stone in Trespasser.
Does it even matter? He's gonna kill us all in the end anyways.
Does it even matter? He's gonna kill us all in the end anyways.
Yes, it matters. Where there's life, there's hope, etc. Also, not killing the Inquisitor indicates a positive (for us) change in demeanor from the Solas that killed Felassan.
I don't think he has changed that much. He also spares the Inquisitor even if he can't stand them and gives as his reason the fact they he feels they are needed to prevent chaos from destroying the fragile peace he has engineered to make himself feel better about killing everyone later. So he is only not killing you because he feels you are still part of his plan, plus the possibility that he does sub-consciously hope you will find an alternative, but I'm pretty sure that consciously he is just mouthing platitudes at you because he can't see any other way of achieving his ends.
I used to like Solas and respected him. Even after the reveal about him in the epilogue I was prepared to think there had to be a good reason for all his secrecy, giving his orb to Corypheus and apparently killing Flemeth. Trespasser pretty much ended any residual feelings of friendship my male Dalish character might have had for him (my romanced character is an emotional wreck). I found his answers much of the time so bloody patronising. My character says, with great disappointment and disillusionment "I never thought I'd hear you say that, Solas". Him: "Thank you, Inquisitor." It wasn't intended as a compliment. Me: "Why does this world have to die." Him: "You've always been a thoughtful person.......but I don't want to reveal too much." After all that I'm meant to want to "redeem" him or in some way "prove" we don't deserve to die. I think it is probably the first time that I haven't wanted to try and save a character from himself.
The only thing is I would rather like to meet some of the other Evanuris, other than Flemeth/Mythal, just to find out if they are as single minded and yet convinced they are not monsters as he is. I have a strange feeling they would be very similar.
I don't think he has changed that much. He also spares the Inquisitor even if he can't stand them and gives as his reason the fact they he feels they are needed to prevent chaos from destroying the fragile peace he has engineered to make himself feel better about killing everyone later. So he is only not killing you because he feels you are still part of his plan, plus the possibility that he does sub-consciously hope you will find an alternative, but I'm pretty sure that consciously he is just mouthing platitudes at you because he can't see any other way of achieving his ends.
I used to like Solas and respected him. Even after the reveal about him in the epilogue I was prepared to think there had to be a good reason for all his secrecy, giving his orb to Corypheus and apparently killing Flemeth. Trespasser pretty much ended any residual feelings of friendship my male Dalish character might have had for him (my romanced character is an emotional wreck). I found his answers much of the time so bloody patronising. My character says, with great disappointment and disillusionment "I never thought I'd hear you say that, Solas". Him: "Thank you, Inquisitor." It wasn't intended as a compliment. Me: "Why does this world have to die." Him: "You've always been a thoughtful person.......but I don't want to reveal too much." After all that I'm meant to want to "redeem" him or in some way "prove" we don't deserve to die. I think it is probably the first time that I haven't wanted to try and save a character from himself.
The only thing is I would rather like to meet some of the other Evanuris, other than Flemeth/Mythal, just to find out if they are as single minded and yet convinced they are not monsters as he is. I have a strange feeling they would be very similar.
The thing is, the Evanuris are all going to be enemies anyway because of the Veil.
I do not actually believe Solas made the Veil.. why would you have ancient elven devices to measure the Veil.... if you didn't have a Veil to begin with?
Regardless of that... they'll still want it weakened.
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