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[Mistic]

Yes the situations escalated, but unforeseen circumstances were the result of the incidents, not the subject of study.

 

I don't know if that is true when the subject of study can talk to you, try to entice you, trick you and plan to take over your body. Spirits and demons aren't animals or natural disasters, but sentient beings. Paraphrasing Sten, they are most dangerous because they are thinking beings and not an unthinking force.

 

Of course, the same can be said of people in general... but we invent and use security measures for dangerous people too.

[The Ascendant]

I don't know if that is true when the subject of study can talk to you, try to entice you, trick you and plan to take over your body. Spirits and demons aren't animals or natural disasters, but sentient beings. Paraphrasing Sten, they are most dangerous because they are thinking beings and not an unthinking force.

Of course, the same can be said of people in general... but we invent and use security measures for dangerous people too.

Anthropology is valid field of study. If we can study people safely surely we can study spirits and demons, who are as you have said thinking beings.
While they are similar to us in many ways are also dissimilar to us in a variety of other ways. Most of them are motivated and focused entirely to a specific facet of existence it can make them predictable.
The Avvar have a great understanding of them that makes most Theodosians seem ignorant. Mihiris' clan had an Elgar'arla(spirit trap), which contained Imsahel. True it didn't hold up, but I believe it was because they underestimated his power and overestimated their own magic. There is a way to safely contain spirits and demons. Not to mention the binding circle Corypheus put Erasthemes in.
I really just want to know more about them.

[Mistic]

You are right to point that, but it's still very dangerous. It's a risk-benefit calculus. The thing is, in all Thedas only the Circles and other magic-specific institutions seem to be prepared to put into effect the necessary security measures. Sometimes drastically. The same as modern researchers have to follow security guidelines when dealing with some subjects.

 

The Dalish don't have the numbers or the means to do the same, so each group has decided its own course of action. The Dalish have decided that the risk is too high, so better not to investigate. It's a logical point of view, since every instance seen so far (DA:O, DAII, the Masked Empire) shows that Dalish clans are not well prepared to deal with the fallout if things go wrong.

 

As much as I commend those who want to investigate about infectious diseases and radiation, I won't blame any institution who forbids it on the grounds they can't afford the security equipment. That others are willing to risk it, like the Avvar, is their problem... and Maker protect those who may suffer for their mistakes (for all their knowledge about spirits, it was Avvar who caused Hakkon's problem and it wasn't them who solved it).

[The Ascendant]

If anyone knows more I imagine it would be the Imperial Circles, where the mages have little to no oversight or restrictions. Hopefully the next game will allow us to visit an Imperial Circle and see how magical studies differ from the Southern ones. But given the war with the Qunari, I imagine all resources will be dedicated to the war and means of counteracting their technology and military. But the one thing Qunari hate more than mages is spirits. Perhaps that could give the Imperium an advantage. 

Individual Dalish clans lack the resources and manpower to safely and correctly learn about Spirits. Hopefully Tevinter has more detailed examinations. 

I just remembered that a Magister wrote a poem detailing his experiences with a spirit, who was corrupted by him into a demon. 

When first I summoned her, she was a rose,
Unwithering, unchanging, and unthorned,
A spirit of the purest love one knows,
Who never hated, coveted, or scorned.

A second time I drew her 'cross the Veil,
And shared a walk, a dance, a stolen kiss;
With such a perfect beauty, pure and pale,
No woman could compare, no man resist.

Then in my weakness I essayed a third,
Tho' magisters their warnings did impart.

She broke my binding with a single word,
And said this smiling as she clutched my heart:
"Though love I was, your passion's changing fire
Has forged this spirit into cruel Desire."

—Sonnet 126, "The Lover and His Spirit", from A Chant forDreamers by Magister Oratius

[Qun00]

So are a lot of fields of study. But by dwelling in ignorance their is no advancement . Yes the situations escalated, but unforeseen circumstances were the result of the incidents, not the subject of study.

It is worth studying for the advancement of lore. Practicing it, however, is another matter.

[Medhia_Nox]

So are a lot of fields of study. But by dwelling in ignorance their is no advancement . Yes the situations escalated, but unforeseen circumstances were the result of the incidents, not the subject of study.

 

Contact with spirits is a cruelty.  

 

Mortals corrupt spirits - I see no reason to believe this was ANY different before the Veil.  

 

Spirits - in their basic form - are absolutes.  They cannot contain conflicting viewpoints.  So, the negative will almost always win out.  

 

If you consider spirits to be "life forms" at all - studying them "should" be something you at the very least do with some hesitation. 

 

NOTE:  I am aware how amoral real humans are to other lifeforms - so perhaps they would be looked at in the same "inferior" light as real scientists view the natural world.  Nobody who respects the natural world dismantles it to satisfy their own curiosity.  

 

In that way - Thedas is a better place - because human amorality gets punished when it corrupts a spirit into a demon and then the demon proceeds to rampage (unlike real world analogues that simply go extinct under the predation of human curiosity.) 

 

Example: The Codex entry you supplied about the Love spirit being perverted to a Desire demon.  Justice became Vengeance.  Wisdom became Pride in Solas' quest. Etc. 

[The Ascendant]

Fine. If the spirits won't come to us we shall go to them! I'm of to the Fade!

[Medhia_Nox]

@The Ascendant:  So - you just want to corrupt the entire Fade with your presence? 

Going for "Magister" are we? 

It is - after all - the entire point of the Black City.

[Vit246]

It is worth studying for the advancement of lore. Practicing it, however, is another matter.

The mage Wilhelm demonstrates a spirit can be successfully contained and extract knowledge from it. Though eventually it should be banished back soon.

However I'm thinking that Tevinter has already done the legwork on spirits and has lots on books on the subject.

[Hellion Rex]

Fine. If the spirits won't come to us we shall go to them! I'm of to the Fade!

Ummm, good luck not getting devoured, corrupted, or possessed by the entities of the deep! 

[Qun00]

I wonder how the elves kept things in order before the Veil came to exist.

Of course, demons didn't need to possess mages in order to visit the material world, but there are many other ways they could be a threat to people. Fear demons preying on their feelings. Desire demons ruining lives with their deals.

[Qun00]

I wonder how the elves kept things in order before the Veil came to exist.

Of course, demons didn't need to possess mages in order to visit the material world, but there are many other ways they could be a threat to people. Fear demons preying on their feelings. Desire demons ruining lives with their deals.

[The Ascendant]

I don't need luck! I have magic! And my humanity! And my soul! Yeah I am probably going to get possessed. Oh well at least I can advance knowledge as I am being demonized.

[Mistic]

Contact with spirits is a cruelty.  

 

Mortals corrupt spirits - I see no reason to believe this was ANY different before the Veil. 

 

Then Thedosians have been corrupting their environment for so long that now it's part of the natural state of spirits, so it shouldn't matter anymore. Why? Because humans and elves (and possibly Qunari) go to the Fade when they dream. They are already polluted by sentient interaction.

 

Also, there's the lingering doubt that, Chant of Light notwithstanding, spirits and demons wouldn't be able to survive without sentient minds to give them form and purpose, unless their world is the world of Ideas suggested by Plato.

[Qun00]

Also, there's the lingering doubt that, Chant of Light notwithstanding, spirits and demons wouldn't be able to survive without sentient minds to give them form and purpose, unless their world is the world of Ideas suggested by Plato.

Solas greatly disapproves.

[Mistic]

Solas greatly disapproves.

 

Does he? He considers Cole a spirit of compassion, yet how can compassion exist without sentient beings to begin with? The same for wisdom and pride.

 

However, if it is indeed a world of Forms or Ideas, universal concepts that exist in abstract reality just because the universe exists, no matter whether there are thinkers to think of them or not, then it would be possible. But that theory wouldn't explain why those who reach them can change their nature by thought alone.

[Vorathrad]

I really like the idea of spirits as the Platonic world of ideas, in that case putting up the Veil would have been like thrusting humans and elves back into the cave, in line with what Solas says of current Thedas inhabitants as incomplete beings because of it.

 

I don't think spirits can only be approached as subjects of study, they also seem to enjoy interaction with living beings; Solas tells that he used to have long conversations with Wisdom, and the spirit that accompanies Wynne since she was a child seems to have approached her of its own accord, not summoned by her to be studied or questioned. It's just that the Veil makes this kind of interaction almost impossible as going through it is a very violent experience, specially for spirits.

[Medhia_Nox]

I really like the idea of spirits as the Platonic world of ideas, in that case putting up the Veil would have been like thrusting humans and elves back into the cave, in line with what Solas says of current Thedas inhabitants as incomplete beings because of it.

 

I don't think spirits can only be approached as subjects of study, they also seem to enjoy interaction with living beings; Solas tells that he used to have long conversations with Wisdom, and the spirit that accompanies Wynne since she was a child seems to have approached her of its own accord, not summoned by her to be studied or questioned. It's just that the Veil makes this kind of interaction almost impossible as going through it is a very violent experience, specially for spirits.

 

Spirits cannot be "Platonic" spirits - because a Platonic spirit would be unchanging.  

 

"IF" there are Platonic ideals in the Fade - then they exist beyond the Spirits.  

 

Spirits - are actually the shadows on the wall of the cave reflected by the fire (light) in the center.  

 

They are mirrors of "the real" not "the real" itself.

[Vorathrad]

Spirits cannot be "Platonic" spirits - because a Platonic spirit would be unchanging.  

 

"IF" there are Platonic ideals in the Fade - then they exist beyond the Spirits.  

 

Spirits - are actually the shadows on the wall of the cave reflected by the fire (light) in the center.  

 

They are mirrors of "the real" not "the real" itself.

 

Platonic ideas are also the purest representation of reality, and spirits are the purest form of the emotion they embody. In that sense, they would form the Platonic world. Of course the comparison is not perfect, but I think the general idea is pretty spot on.

 

There is no way to know whether they are the shadows on the wall, as it's possible that spirits existed prior to other beings and the latter were formed as spirits solidified into reality. We assume that a spirit such as Wisdom is formed as a reflection of wisdom in the real world, but it may be the opposite.

[Medhia_Nox]

Vorathrad:  The problem comes in presentation.  You cannot present the "purest" form of an emotion.

 

1)  We simply do not know enough about emotions to develop a serious discussion about what the "purest" form of any of them would even look like. 

 

2)  They would be utterly incapable of any real interaction.  I could make a valid argument suggesting that the "purest form of wisdom" would never utter a single word - because words create limitation - limitation embodies confusion - confusion is not wisdom.  The purest form of wisdom could (I suggest would) be completely silent.  NOTE: I also believe that a vast array of real world texts on the concept of wisdom would agree with me. 

 

Likewise - the purest form of rage would not be able to speak either.  Rage offers no room for discourse.  Neither would the purest form of sloth. 

 

I'm not just being argumentative... I know Bioware likely doesn't explore these concepts beyond: "Oh, neat."  But I do not believe my opinion is incorrect if the concept of the "purest" of anything is explored. 

 

Ultimately - the "purest" "form" of anything would"look" like all the real world gods.  Nothing at all. If a god exists in our reality, and if it is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent... otherwise "perfect" - it can have no form the human eye (and human brain) could conceive. 

 

So to... with spirits. They would be inconceivable.

 

3)  Spirits are capable of being "almost" person like.  Cole, for example, has simply become a compassionate mortal.  There is nothing that can outwardly be pointed to about Cole that says: "He is incapable of being compassionate."  any more than someone who defines their life by compassion would be "incapable" of being anything but compassionate. 

 

NOTE:  Again, the "Rule of Cool" breaks down any real conversations about these topics.  Either 1)  Cole is not unique and, at least in theory, all spirits can become "mortal".  or 2)  Cole was a cool idea... and discussing any sort of consistent concepts about the DA cosmology is ultimately moot. 

[Vit246]

Sometimes I wish spirits and demons were like Warhammer Chaos

[Vorathrad]

@Medhia_Nox I think I created some confusion by drawing on the real world Platonic theory. I referred to spirits as the "purest" form ("purest" was probably not the best choice of words) because of what Solas says in game, that spirits aren't nuanced beings like humans or elves. Anyway, while looking for the exact quote I also found out that Solas says this in banter: "Spirits form as a reflection of this world and its passions". So my theory is moot   And you're are right that they are really like the shadows on the wall of the cave. 

 

Like you said, it's probably that Bioware didn't put that much thought in it (or that they figure it out as they go if they decide to include more on the subject in game) But it would be interesting that there would be yet another dimension of the Fade that has nothing to do with living beings and is not shaped by their experiences.

[The Ascendant]

If spirits are a reflection of the world, what does it say about us when we encounter demons far more than spirits. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@The Ascendant:  I believe THAT is exactly the point Bioware IS actually trying to make.  

 

Demons, the Black City and Darkspawn are all the results of what I would call:  "Thedas' Original Sin"

[The Ascendant]

@The Ascendant:  I believe THAT is exactly the point Bioware IS actually trying to make.  
 
Demons, the Black City and Darkspawn are all the results of what I would call:  "Thedas' Original Sin"

I don't think it's fair to blame humans for everything. The Forbidden Ones existed long before humans and the Veil. Yes they screwed up a lot of the world, but Elves can be as a much jeks as humans as the Evanuris show.