964 réponses à ce sujet

[Vorathrad]

If spirits are a reflection of the world, what does it say about us when we encounter demons far more than spirits. 

 

Solas says in Cole's personal mission that spirits such as compassion and wisdom are rare but there's plenty for the likes of envy and sloth. I think Bioware is presenting a pessimistic view of humanity, that believes human nature is fundamentally selfish and inclined to evil rather than good. I think "human" includes elves as well; we have no indication that there were more benevolent spirits in the days of ancient elves, and seeing that elvhen society was very similar to present-day Tevinter (as Dorian correctly points out), I don't think it was the case. 

 

I don't believe the human race was Theda's original sin; with what we know after DAI and its DLCs, I rather have the impression that the old magisters unleashed upon the world something that ancient elves created and was contained by the Veil.

[The Ascendant]

Solas says in Cole's personal mission that spirits such as compassion and wisdom are rare but there's plenty for the likes of envy and sloth. I think Bioware is presenting a pessimistic view of humanity, that believes human nature is fundamentally selfish and inclined to evil rather than good. I think "human" includes elves as well; we have no indication that there were more benevolent spirits in the days of ancient elves, and seeing that elvhen society was very similar to present-day Tevinter (as Dorian correctly points out), I don't think it was the case. 

 

I don't believe the human race was Theda's original sin; with what we know after DAI and its DLCs, I rather have the impression that the old magisters unleashed upon the world something that ancient elves created and was contained by the Veil.

I meant 'us' as in mortals. I am sure Elves are as much jerks as humans. People are just people. And if the Evanuris are any example, I imagine demons existed long before humans.

[Gwydden]

If spirits are a reflection of the world, what does it say about us when we encounter demons far more than spirits. 

So sort of like the Warhammer universe, where Chaos is not inherently bad but merely reflects the psyche of sapient beings, and it just so happens that 99.99999999% of the people in both Fantasy and 40k are incorrigible assholes?

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I think Arlathan is an version of Ancient Egypt.

[Vorathrad]

I meant 'us' as in mortals. I am sure Elves are as much jerks as humans. People are just people. And if the Evanuris are any example, I imagine demons existed long before humans.

 

That's exactly what I said.

[The Ascendant]

That's exactly what I said.

Sorry didn't realise.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

If spirits are a reflection of the world, what does it say about us when we encounter demons far more than spirits. 

I believe Justice in Awakening answers this, saying that most spirits show no real interest in the world of mortals whereas demons do.

[Medhia_Nox]

For my part... I never blamed humans as the "originators" of sin... if anyone, it would be the elves - but that hardly exonerates any sapient being. 

 

@Vorathrad:  "IF" this is the statement they're making... then I happen to agree with them.  I am a misanthrope and I tend not to find much merit in humanist thinking beyond self-aggrandizement. 

 

If these kinds of spirits existed in our own world - I actually think they would be far worse off, and I believe that spirits the likes of wisdom and peace and virtue would never be able to come in contact with a mortal being or risk being irredeemably corrupted. 

 

I had really hoped that they kept the Fade as a realm of pure thought with the Black City being an allegory for mortal hubris - but it seems they've taken a less high-minded approach and turned it into a fantasy playground for "heroes" to traipse through. 

[The Ascendant]

I believe Justice in Awakening answers this, saying that most spirits show no real interest in the world of mortals whereas demons do.

Oh yeah forgot about him. I wonder why Lyrium sings to them. I remember that Cole said something similar in the Descent when nearing the Titan.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Oh yeah forgot about him. I wonder why Lyrium sings to them. I remember that Cole said something similar in the Descent when nearing the Titan.

Well, we now know that Lyrium is the blood of Titans. And Titans were around before the Veil. So perhaps the Titans and Fade entities have some connection we don't know about yet. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Well, we now know that Lyrium is the blood of Titans. And Titans were around before the Veil. So perhaps the Titans and Fade entities have some connection we don't know about yet. 

 

I think "The Maker" is a Titan and that the elves are the origin of the Chantry story when they attacked and "killed" the titans - created the Darkspawn - and made "The Black City" which is "at the center of the Fade" - I believe "the Maker" titan... is at the center of Thedas.  And - the Magisters tried to access this city... because the Old Gods, who persist beneath Thedas, knew the titans dwelt below.

 

I believe the Titans would agree - if they were inclined to be such beings - that "Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule over them."

 

The Templars and Seekers both get their powers from a "connection" with - presumably - Faith spirits (well - okay, Seekers get it from Faith spirits) and lyrium.

 

Templars (Seekers and dwarven Shapers) are servants of the Titans... mages are servants of the Fade.

 

But - I believe "The Fade" is simply a mirror of the real world - and ultimately inferior. 

 

OH - if only I could be a mage that went through the Seeker Vigil....

[Gwydden]

I think Bioware is presenting a pessimistic view of humanity, that believes human nature is fundamentally selfish and inclined to evil rather than good.

@Vorathrad:  "IF" this is the statement they're making... then I happen to agree with them.  I am a misanthrope and I tend not to find much merit in humanist thinking beyond self-aggrandizement. 

Neither evil nor good can't exist without human nature. Humans are literally the only species capable of doing evil, but they are also the only one capable of doing good. You can only know the former by knowing the latter, and there is no virtue in untested virtue. I reckon that in a world where everyone was effortlessly selfless the concept of "good" would not exist. The idea that evil is necessary for good to exist is cliche, but not without weight.

 

Fade spirits imitate that which they see mortals doing. It stands to reason that without mortals, there wouldn't be any spirits of Wisdom, or Virtue, or Faith, or Valor, or Compassion, or any of the others, because without mortals to think them up and practice them those concepts do not exist. Demons are the back of the coin that you inevitably get as part of the deal.

 

But then I'm a humanist, so I tend to look at the matter a little differently.

[Qun00]

I'm interested in learning more about Elgar'nan. The tales portray him as a total loose canon that needs Mythal to keep him in check. A hot headed fool.

Makes you wonder why he is at the top of the pantheon in the first place.

[Gwydden]

I'm interested in learning more about Elgar'nan. The tales portray him as a total loose canon that needs Mythal to keep him in check. A hot headed fool.

Makes you wonder why he is at the top of the pantheon in the first place.

COUGH COUGH COUGH Zeus! COUGH COUGH COUGH

[Medhia_Nox]

Neither evil nor good can't exist without human nature. Humans are literally the only species capable of doing evil, but they are also the only one capable of doing good. You can only know the former by knowing the latter, and there is no virtue in untested virtue. I reckon that in a world where everyone was effortlessly selfless the concept of "good" would not exist. The idea that evil is necessary for good to exist is cliche, but not without weight.

 

Fade spirits imitate that which they see mortals doing. It stands to reason that without mortals, there wouldn't be any spirits of Wisdom, or Virtue, or Faith, or Valor, or Compassion, or any of the others, because without mortals to think them up and practice them those concepts do not exist. Demons are the back of the coin that you inevitably get as part of the deal.

 

But then I'm a humanist, so I tend to look at the matter a little differently.

 

As a humanist, you are perhaps inclined to think that humans (or elves, qunari, dwarves in the case of DA) are the progenitors of thought.  I am not.  For DA, that leaves the Maker - or something that isn't "the" Maker, but might as well be.

 

In our own world there are a vast array of perceptions of the universe and I have seen nothing about the perception of good and evil to portray either of them as anything more than a burden.  Animals and plants (to give such base classifications to over 8 million other species) are not burdened and can dwell in an "angelic" state - that would be - a state without free will, a state in service of nature (for angels, it would of course be "God").  Terrifying to a human ego to be sure - we imagine ourselves better than mere "servants" to the universe.  Only a thing that perceives itself more important than creation... can believe such a thing.

 

Would I suffer to view the world as kelp does?  Or a sparrow?  Does the salamander worry?  Does the daisy fear?  There is no empirical evidence that the knowledge of good and evil is a form of "uplifting" that both science and modern religions would have us believe.  There is no science that can state with certainty that I am superior to a gnat.  In truth - I think, by evidence of our endangering of 8 million other species, we have empirically proven that such knowledge is inferior because it causes disharmony with all the rest of the universe.

 

Of course - human ego balks at the idea. 

 

Concerning Thedas - I think it is a grave injustice to interact with spirits.  Let them absorb through dreams.  It seems a safe filter for them.  They cannot be corrupted through mimicry - at least as far as we are aware.  If a Cole is found to exist - then deal with such a being as the anomaly it is.  We need not "kill" or "banish" a Cole - it has chosen confusion in the human state.  Let it join us and perhaps sort out its own purpose with ignorance and misguided footsteps.

 

The ancient elves sought to conquer all realms.  The "Earth" was their "right" - sound familiarly modern?  They created an "in between" place where they fused spirits to purposes that served them and then congratulated themselves on their wisdom.  They killed, and mined, titans.  Wiped out vast swaths of proto-dwarves (who, it could be said - lived without good or evil - at the time)

 

And... nature responded.  Wherever the Darkspawn come from... it is not an "unnatural" place.  It cannot be.  There can be no place in the universe of Thedas that is "unnatural" (though, it does stand to reason that the Fade - being not a "place" at all - is unnatural "to" Thedas, but not itself.  Not unlike an alternate dimension would be if they exist in our reality.)

 

Darkspawn are the response to pushing either Thedas... or the Fade... too far.  There is nothing to celebrate in that.  Had there been no sapient beings on Thedas... the world would not suffer predation from darkspawn.

 

If humanity were only made of playwrights, painters and poets, actors and healers and gardeners... I could perhaps be a humanist, but alas - no such human race exists.  Just an ape taking everything with it as it commits suicide.  A shame really - I don't think it "had" to be this way.

 

@Qun00:  Interesting that you say that the woman who kept "Elgar'nan" in check... is the woman who killed titans and mined them and very likely released the darkspawn - but assuredly released something so terrible that vastly powerful beings that could alter reality... were afraid. 

 

I would hope the Flemythal we know today is far wiser... and wants to put a stop to the newest mad god to reawaken and threaten to submit the world to his ego.

[Gwydden]

As a humanist, you are perhaps inclined to think that humans (or elves, qunari, dwarves in the case of DA) are the progenitors of thought.  I am not.  For DA, that leaves the Maker - or something that isn't "the" Maker, but might as well be.

Thought exists independent of sapient beings, which are just manifestations of it. Saying humans are the "progenitors" of thought would be like saying humans are the progenitors of gravity, or of electric current. I also tend to think of sentience as matter gaining the ability to experience itself, and of consciousness as matter becoming aware of its own existence. But it is all still matter.

 

In our own world there are a vast array of perceptions of the universe and I have seen nothing about the perception of good and evil to portray either of them as anything more than a burden.  Animals and plants (to give such base classifications to over 8 million other species) are not burdened and can dwell in an "angelic" state - that would be - a state without free will, a state in service of nature (for angels, it would of course be "God"). 

"[...] since our Eyes / Op'nd we find indeed, and find we know / Both Good and Evil, Good lost, and Evil got, / Bad Fruit of Knowledge, if this be to know, / which leaves us naked thus, of Honour void, / Of Innocence, of Faith, of Puritie [...]"

 

Is that what you are arguing for? Innocence, faith, and purity are all overrated in my book. I had more of each of those during my childhood, and I do not lament their lost. If anything, I feel more complete. I'd rather take the roses with the thorns, and some burdens are a joy to carry. What is the point of ignorant bliss? My line of thought is fairly simple and, you will find, doesn't require humanity to have any objective, inherent worth that makes it superior:

1. I am human.
2. I like being human, and would not be anything else.
3. Therefore, being human must be good and worthwhile.

Terrifying to a human ego to be sure - we imagine ourselves better than mere "servants" to the universe.  Only a thing that perceives itself more important than creation... can believe such a thing.

 

Would I suffer to view the world as kelp does?  Or a sparrow?  Does the salamander worry?  Does the daisy fear?  There is no empirical evidence that the knowledge of good and evil is a form of "uplifting" that both science and modern religions would have us believe.  There is no science that can state with certainty that I am superior to a gnat.  In truth - I think, by evidence of our endangering of 8 million other species, we have empirically proven that such knowledge is inferior because it causes disharmony with all the rest of the universe.

 

Of course - human ego balks at the idea.

Not really. I do not think the universe requires service and, moreover, humans are just as much a part of it as everything else. As such, they cannot be "more important" than the universe. They are not, in any objective sense, superior to other lifeforms. Life is not, in any objective sense, superior to non-life. The extinction of thousands of species is not, in any objective sense, superior to their survival. A silent, static universe is not in any objective sense superior to one bursting with life.

 

Humans have kickstarted their own mass extinction events. These have happened and will happen, with or without humans. There are two possible outcomes to the current one:

• Humans self-destruct in an embarrassing display of stupidity. Whatever damage they cause the world will be fixed in a few million years (nothing in the grand scale of things) and before you know it Earth is full of life once again. And then, the legacy of humanity could be summarized just with Ozymandias.
• Humans correct the course before it is too late and survive the challenges of the near future. They will be able to "serve the universe" in a way no one else can, by preventing any and all mass extinction events in a long, long time, saving a great many species from extinction. It still doesn't make us superior, but it gives a purpose.

Heavy risk, but think of the prize...

 

The ancient elves sought to conquer all realms.  The "Earth" was their "right" - sound familiarly modern?  They created an "in between" place where they fused spirits to purposes that served them and then congratulated themselves on their wisdom.  They killed, and mined, titans.  Wiped out vast swaths of proto-dwarves (who, it could be said - lived without good or evil - at the time)

 

And... nature responded.  Wherever the Darkspawn come from... it is not an "unnatural" place.  It cannot be.  There can be no place in the universe of Thedas that is "unnatural" (though, it does stand to reason that the Fade - being not a "place" at all - is unnatural "to" Thedas, but not itself.  Not unlike an alternate dimension would be if they exist in our reality.)

 

Darkspawn are the response to pushing either Thedas... or the Fade... too far.  There is nothing to celebrate in that.  Had there been no sapient beings on Thedas... the world would not suffer predation from darkspawn.

The idea that a world predated by the darkspawn is inferior to one that is not is entirely subjective on a cosmic scale, as I pointed out. The same goes for the idea that the darkspawn are somehow a flawed lifeform and less deserving of the universe than others. Without sapient beings, there would be no subjectivity. Only absolute objectivity, and no scenario is better or worse.

 

Of course, that also means that the presence of subjectivity is not inherently superior to its absence, hence why sapient beings are not "superior" in any objective sense. But I believe there is an inevitable paradox at play here. The world is better without sapient beings according to whom? Sapient beings. If there weren't any sapient beings, who is to say the world is better that way?

 

If humanity were only made of playwrights, painters and poets, actors and healers and gardeners... I could perhaps be a humanist, but alas - no such human race exists.  Just an ape taking everything with it as it commits suicide.  A shame really - I don't think it "had" to be this way.

Interesting that you left out scientists. Don't get me wrong — I'm a writer and as such tend to place the arts above the sciences, but I find it curious nonetheless.

 

I'm not a humanist because I believe we are perfect. I'm a humanist because I believe we can be better than we are. It's not about ignoring the flaws, but recognizing the potential. You'll see us wiped out, but I believe my approach is much more constructive. Humans will go extinct anyway, just like everyone else before us. The more damage we do, the bigger assholes we are, the quicker will that happen, but it will happen anyway. I'd rather we leave the stage like Prospero and not like Hamlet.

 

And that's why I think it's great that there are spirits of Compassion and Valor and Wisdom in Thedas. You see humans and think they are flawed and destructive. Thing is, all species are. Animals will kill entire populations to feed given the chance and not give a flying fig or in any way recognize that they are screwing up. It's just that they rarely have the chance. Sapient creatures may have the greatest destructive capabilities, but they are also the only ones who can recognize them as such, who can choose not to do it, and who can stop in their tracks even if they are doing it.

[Qun00]

We be gettin' deeper than the roads over here.

[Hellion Rex]

Well, that all just went over my head. I'll simply bow to my betters, and let them debate it out. I know when I'm out of my depth.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

http://minkypinkypoo...ragon-age-elves

[Hellion Rex]

 

OH - if only I could be a mage that went through the Seeker Vigil....

Would it truly be any different than Pharamond's situation though? The vigil is handy in that it makes you a beacon for a Spirit of Faith, but would a Faith spirit's touch be any different than that of Pride? 

 

Granted, we did never see Pharamond for any significant amount of time after his restoration, so there may yet have been some changes or even augments to his powers that are as of yet undiscovered.

[In Exile]

I really like the idea of spirits as the Platonic world of ideas, in that case putting up the Veil would have been like thrusting humans and elves back into the cave, in line with what Solas says of current Thedas inhabitants as incomplete beings because of it.

I don't think spirits can only be approached as subjects of study, they also seem to enjoy interaction with living beings; Solas tells that he used to have long conversations with Wisdom, and the spirit that accompanies Wynne since she was a child seems to have approached her of its own accord, not summoned by her to be studied or questioned. It's just that the Veil makes this kind of interaction almost impossible as going through it is a very violent experience, specially for spirits.

And when you think about how the Veil started - Solas coming up with a way to trap the Evanuris -it makes sense that crossing it is so damaging, because it would be a pretty **** net if you could easily escape it.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Gwydden:  Thank you for the great response - I know it will likely upset a few, but instead of diverting to a PM, I'll continue my response here.  I hope anyone looking to specifically discuss Arlathvhen and elven culture exclusively can excuse me.  I will try to add discussion about spirits, elves or what have you as I go to make it topical.

 

 

 

"Is that what you are arguing for? Innocence, faith, and purity are all overrated in my book. I had more of each of those during my childhood, and I do not lament their lost. If anything, I feel more complete. I'd rather take the roses with the thorns, and some burdens are a joy to carry. What is the point of ignorant bliss? My line of thought is fairly simple and, you will find, doesn't require humanity to have any objective, inherent worth that makes it superior:

 

1) I am human.
2) I like being human, and would not be anything else.

3) Therefore, being human must be good and worthwhile."

 

 

 

No humans should not seek ignorance as bliss.  It is against our natures.  In a Biblical sense - we have been cast from Eden never to return.  Eden is very much a state of mind to me... like the Fade.  Eden - as "state of mind" - would be that "Innocence, faith and purity" we abandoned in our evolution and then again from children to adults.  In the metaphor of the Bible - Eden is closed, we can never return to our animal natures.  We "sinned" by eaten the apple of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil... and because of this - we are burdened with responsibility (the rest of the Bible details that responsibility).

 

If we have a responsibility at all - it is not to God.  Any such being - if it is to exist - does not "need" us to do anything.  It is first, to ourselves, then to other (and other "should" encompass not only humans, but also the aforementioned 8 million other species sharing our rock - and also "the rock" itself). 

 

Though I unquestioningly appreciate the ethics of texts like the Bible, the Bhaghavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching and other religious guides... I am also a student of Aristotle's Nichomacean Ethics and the Analects of Confucius (ultimately - it doesn't matter what texts are read.  The conclusions are common sense I believe.  I book list only to illustrate that my opinion is not derived from any singular body of work.) 

 

All ancient philosophers were concerned with the "responsibility" of mankind... a humorous notion since the ancient world is "supposed" to be inferior to today which is unashamedly apathetic and amoral with moral relativism being a guideline for self-appeasement and ego.  Epicurus would spit on anyone who claimed his hedonism is that of today's self-absorbed materialist.

 

-----

 

Concerning the Darkspawn and our own world - I believe we genuinely do have empirical evidence to show that both the pre-darkspawn and the pre-human worlds were "better".  

 

Yes, other organisms can do - in infinitely smaller scales - what humans can do.  But animals, as a rule, do not do those things needlessly.  Animals and plants are invasive only because we move them.  Animals do cause waste - but the levels of animal waste in an ecosystem is manageable by that ecosystem and that is entirely the point.

 

To discuss whether humanity is better than "nature" is, for me, an easy one.  Humanity creates problems that nature cannot "readily" fix (this was not the case for 200,000 years of human existence - only the last 200 or so - frightening "impressive" I suppose)... and then "corrects" them by creating more problems unto a level compounded so greatly that now all life on earth in endangered.  The comparison to a virus is not an unfounded one. 

 

Do supervolcanoes do this?  Do meteors do this?  Of course they do - but one must assume that a universe that is 13 billion years old has contingency plans for things generated from it.  And... let us be clear.  Do we want to be equated to forces of annihilation?  Is it a honor to be as destructive as a supervolcano or meteor?  Double damning when you consider that we actually had a choice of being such a force of oblivion.

 

1) If evolution "can" result in sapience.

2) And sapience "can" be self-destructive.

3) Then the universe tends toward suicide. 

 

That conclusion go way beyond the notion of entropy.  If they universe "tends toward suicide" then it is all, factually, a "waste of space" - leaving any such notion based on a "efficient" universe as a preposterous notion. Of course - the universe, being so vastly superior to us is likely unphased by our arrival and ultimate passing - leaving it free from this "suicidal" tendency. On Thedas - the universe has responded with Darkspawn.  The Blight DOES heal... one could consider a form of fantasy "chemo".  It damages the host to kill off the cancerous tissue destroying said host.  Ultimately, if successful, the body heals and the cancer is gone.

 

-----

 

But, is that the point? Is our irrelevance a "get out of jail" free card that should allow us to utterly lack responsibility to ourselves, each other, and ultimately the universe?  It is not a matter of "helping" the universe - the universe does not "need" us (as a God would not "need" us) - it should be an honor, and a privilege to serve the universe by our mere existence.  

 

The fact that the world can annihilate us if it "has to" - should not be considered something that exalts us in our deviancy.  We should not celebrate our iniquity. 

And ultimately - that is the manifestation of demons on Thedas.  Mortals who not only embody, but celebrate (even if subconsciously) their "sins" by believing that there is nothing wrong with being imperfect.

 

NOTE:  Perfection is unachievable - I believe the point is in the striving toward betterment.  In that - I think we come to similar conclusions from different angles. 

 

NOTE 2:  You might also notice I did not add "preacher" or its like... I am adamantly against all human institutions - be they religion, government or ideology.  Science is not an ideology - scientists have formed one around it.  Refuting this is of course imperative to said group... but the more they refute, the more they take on the attributes of a dogmatic group.  

 

One need only look so far as the no longer planet "Pluto" to discover scientists tendency toward institutional dogmatism.  

[d1ta]

... Am I the only one thinking that the debates here are like discussions between those sagely hahrens during Arlathven or perhaps between elvhen thinkers during the times before Elvhenan fell? XD (there must'vebeen SOME good aspects during the height of Arlathan, right? XD)

Sadly I have nothing to contribute, just enjoy strolling in these part of the woods. And elven thread makes me feel sooo much at home.

[Qun00]

I wouldn't go that far. Long texts are boring and that's about it. But let them have their fun.

So, uh... how are you? Have you played any elven characters recently?

[d1ta]

Ahahaa.. yeah, I played elven characters most. Blame Tolkien for that (fan girl squee on Legolas). How funny that I just red your writting on the Cullen thread kinda agree about that thing being pestered by demons for life could be taxing/bothersome and all.
(Ironically, may fave and canon is a Dalish First) so what's yours?

About this thread, what can I say, I love people having discussion and having different opinions yet still keeping things civil. No name callings. That's a plus.
Both sides have their own pov's and merrits as well as things that I dont necessary agree with