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[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Husband? I must've missed that part. They do represent fatherhood and motherhood respectively, but I've never heard there was an actual relationship.

If so, I would expect it to be a purely political deal rather than love.

Well, several other members of the pantheon are supposed to be their children, so its implied they're a mated pair. So, husband. Also, Mythal speaks of how Flemeth was betrayed "as I was betrayed", and Flemeth was betrayed by her husband (or her lover? The whole dueling Conobar stories thing has always left me slightly confused.), so its not a leap to imagine Mythal had a husband to be betrayed by, too. And Elgar'nan is the most viable candidate we have at the moment.

 

On a more meta-level, Mythal parallels Aphrodite with the whole "born of the sea" creation myth and being the goddess of love. She also parallels Hera, being the goddess of motherhood and the co-leader of the pantheon. Meanwhile Elgar'nan parallels Ares with the temperament and being the fighter/war god (see his coliseum/bastion in the Dales) and Zeus with the lightning (mentioned in that codex with a plea for him to "tame the earth". I think its from JoH?) and the co-leadership of the pantheon. And Ares/Aphrodite were lovers (with Aphrodite being able to calm him when she wished like Mythal with Elgar'nan), while Zeus/Hera were outright married, and I just draw the conclusion.

 

Again this is all if the legends have that grain of truth to them regarding Mythal and Elgar'nan's relationship. I don't know if the word husband or wife is ever actually used, now that I think of it. But the bond seems to be there to me, regardless of wording.

 

As for whether it was a purely political arrangement, that's possible, I suppose. Strange for her to feel quite so betrayed (its lasted for, like, 4 millennia now) if there was no sentiment involved. But its possible. This is why I'd like to learn more about them. Maybe have a chat with the guy (with my templar spec'd companions flanking him of course).

[d1ta]

Reznore57.. wow,
awsome explanation. I like yours better than mine XD

I really thought that the Evanuris were mostly related? Like Fen'harel-Mythal are mom and dad, Dirthamen and Falon'Din are children of Mythal (?)
Though not sure about Andruil, Sylaise and June?

PS. Another thing, a poster said somewhere that Solas makes a mention that Sylaise was evil? O.o' is this true?

[Reznore57]

The tale about Flemeth at least the one she told herself to Morrigan is , she was a beautiful lady and she was married to a bard.

They were poor.

Some lord saw her , and of course wanted her.

So the lord and bard made a deal and she was sold to the lord as wife.She was alright with the bargain.

Thing is the lord turned around and murdered the bard ...maybe to get his money back , who knows.

Flemeth got the news and decided it was vengeance time.

 

The other version , the popular one is Flemeth was married to a lord , and she saw a pretty bard.They fell in love and ran away.

The lord fabricated some rumors he was dying , and wanted to see his wife one last time.

Flemeth went to see him , the bard got murdered , and she got trapped in some tower or something.

And revenge time again.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

The tale about Flemeth at least the one she told herself to Morrigan is , she was a beautiful lady and she was married to a bard.

They were poor.

Some lord saw her , and of course wanted her.

So the lord and bard made a deal and she was sold to the lord as wife.She was alright with the bargain.

Thing is the lord turned around and murdered the bard ...maybe to get his money back , who knows.

Flemeth got the news and decided it was vengeance time.

 

The other version , the popular one is Flemeth was married to a lord , and she saw a pretty bard.They fell in love and ran away.

The lord fabricated some rumors he was dying , and wanted to see his wife one last time.

Flemeth went to see him , the bard got murdered , and she got trapped in some tower or something.

And revenge time again.

Thank you. So, husband betrayed her each time, though he's technically the 2nd husband in Flemeth's version. 

[Gervaise]

The Creator pantheon (which may encompass all or only part of the Evanuris) was said in World of Thedas 1 to be a family.   However, it wouldn't be the first thing in the lore book that was later contradicted in the game; the explanation of course would be that the family version was what the Dalish believe was the case but not actually the true situation.

 

So what the Dalish believe is that the world was created by Mythal, goddess of motherhood, justice and protection, and Elgar'nan, god of fatherhood and vengeance.   Their eldest children were the twin brothers, Falon'Din and Dirthamen.   Next in line was Andruil, followed by Sylaise and finally June.    Ghilan'nain was not one of their children, having been a regular elf who was as follower of Andruil, subsequently raised to godhood by her.    Then there is the other group of gods, the Forgotten Ones, but it is not clear how many of them there might have been but so far we have the names of Gelduran (from JoH), Anaris (from Masked Empire) and another dude whose name escapes me that was attached to some artefact.

 

In the Temple of Mythal Falon'Din, Andruil and June were left outside the inner sanctum but I don't know if that was meant to be significant or not.     It has always seemed odd to me that if any of the gods had not been on good terms with Mythal at the end and caused her death, why would they still be honoured in her Temple?   Would her servant Abelas really be in ignorance of the culprit when he could claim with such certainty that Fen'Harel was not responsible?   I think this is another of those cases when someone could have told us much more but in the interests of maintaining the mystery the writers chose not to let them.   After all, when Solas tells us the reason he moved against the Evanuris, my Dalish at least would have liked to have said "Do you mean the people we call the Creators?" and "So who did murder Mythal and how?"

 

The only god he specifically mentions by name is Falon'Din, when he recounts how he created a bloodbath of victims when insisting they worship him and Mythal had to sort him out, which she only did when his actions threatened her people.    In a similar way she only took Andruil to task when the other gods became fearful of her actions in the Void and feared they would hunt them.   So it definitely seems like Mythal only intervened in the affairs of other gods if their actions directly affected her or other people requested it.     Most of the other new references to the activities of the Creators come from the codices we find in the Temple of Mythal and during our time exploring the Crossroads.   So presumably they were records left by their followers, although some of the texts we find in the Library are hinted to be the memories of Solas himself.    Then there was the additional text which was the warning by the Evanuris against Fen'Harel.   Again there is no indication exactly which gods these were or how many but their description of him seemed spot on.  

 

Elgar'nan was said to have had a huge statue built of himself and we find a giant hand in the Exalted Plains, which could possibly be the remains of the statue.   So it would seem that he was at least by this time rather full of himself.    However, the text about how Mythal intervened in a dispute between Elgar'nan and Falon'Din seemed to indicate they both respected her enough to listen.    This would make sense if one was her husband and the other her son.     In view of what happened with Andruil when she tried hunting the Forgotten Ones in the Void, I wonder if at the end the entire pantheon hadn't succumbed to some sort of madness, perhaps as the result of red lyrium?    

 

Still, without specific names, I'm loath to blame all the Creators for Mythal's death.    We only have Solas word to go on for that; they clearly didn't think of him as one of their own; their followers in the library seemed distressed at their loss and Flemeth only says that Mythal was betrayed, without stating by whom.     Our own concept of justice is innocent until proven guilty and the only witness at present is someone who is notoriously evasive when it comes to the truth, so I'm waiting for a bit more information before condemning the entire pantheon.

[Qun00]

If there is an intended parallel and the writers consider it important, Solas might be Mythal's Conobar.

[Mistic]

So what the Dalish believe is that the world was created by Mythal, goddess of motherhood, justice and protection, and Elgar'nan, god of fatherhood and vengeance.

 

Actually, despite their title of "Creators", elven legends acknowledge that the sun and the earth existed long before the Evanuris appeared. It was a point made by Gaider in an old thread that elven religion and the cult of the Old Gods don't really have a creator entity like the Maker in their pantheons.

 

It has always seemed odd to me that if any of the gods had not been on good terms with Mythal at the end and caused her death, why would they still be honoured in her Temple?   Would her servant Abelas really be in ignorance of the culprit when he could claim with such certainty that Fen'Harel was not responsible?   I think this is another of those cases when someone could have told us much more but in the interests of maintaining the mystery the writers chose not to let them.   After all, when Solas tells us the reason he moved against the Evanuris, my Dalish at least would have liked to have said "Do you mean the people we call the Creators?" and "So who did murder Mythal and how?"

 

Yes, that's very odd. When I stopped to think about it, I realized that we only have Solas' word about who killed Mythal. Flemeth confirms she was betrayed in a very awful way, and Abelas says it wasn't the Dread Wolf who did it. However, apart from that, we don't have any other evidence except Fen'Harel's.

 

A pet theory of mine is that Mythal was murdered when she judged or was going to judge the conflict between Fen'Harel's rebellion and the other Evanuris, and that her former colleagues turned on her when she agreed to Solas' demands. Now, I wonder, what if it wasn't all of them but just one who wanted to derail the peace process? It's not as if there wasn't a list of gods with a grudge against Mythal, since time and again she limited their abuses. Then the awful betrayal becomes a mystery scenario ("Who killed Mythal?"). Or what if it was a third party who wanted to keep the war going and put the blame on a scapegoat? I mean, we've just seen that very scenario at the beginning of DA:I.

[Gervaise]

Clearly David Gaider wasn't consulted when the writers of World of Thedas 1 went about recording the Elven religion.   It clearly says the Dalish believe that Mythal and Elgar'nan created the world but of course that wouldn't make sense in view of the myth about Elgar'nan getting angry with the sun and throwing it down.    So my explanation is that they were responsible for creating the world of the elves that Solas refers to: crystalline cities and walkways, not to mention the Crossroads.    It was their creation that he destroyed for the most part when he raised the Veil because it was built on the magic of the Fade.  

 

I'm pretty sure the Forgotten Ones have to feature somewhere  in the story of Mythal's betrayal and death.    The Dalish myths are never entirely wrong, just slanted in favour of the Creators and conveniently forgetting their alleged abuses, which would fit with their priesthood in the Dales being the descendants of the followers of the Evanuris rather than the opposition party.    There were elves in the Dales who worshipped the Forgotten Ones and it would seem they still exist in the Tirashan.   Andruil was hunting the Forgotten Ones.   Felassan recounts a story about a confrontation between Andruil and Anaris over Fen'Harel and Gelduran clearly didn't have any love for Andruil or June (and likely not the others either).    The Dalish recall them as the gods of terror, pestilence, malice and spite.  What better way to avenge themselves on the Creators than trick the trickster into thinking they were responsible for Mythal's death, resulting in him shutting them away and leaving the field clear for them to take over (my own theory is that the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones by different names).   In any case, I'd still like to know what became of them.

 

As for Solas being Conobar, well he was the husband of Flemeth, so I'd opt for Solas being Osen if we are meant to draw direct comparison, as he is more commonly thought of as either the lover (usual tale) or the first husband.    However, I wouldn't draw direct comparisons there because clearly he seems to have been more of a shield bearer/guardian, rather like Havard the Aegis in Andraste/Maferath's tale.   If his job was originally to shield Mythal from harm and he failed to do so, this would account for his anger, guilt and desire for vengeance against the perpetrators.   If he was tricked into leaving her side, this would make him doubly bitter.

[Medhia_Nox]

Tangent:

1)  Ancient elven artifacts that measures a Veil that doesn't exist yet.

 

And...

 

2)  A fire named after something (the Veil) that doesn't exist... but was perfected at the height of ancient elven civilization.  Solas recognizes it as Veilfire... he doesn't call it anything else.  Why would the elves give it the name "Veil"fire if the Veil didn't exist yet? 

[Qun00]

It is interesting that Solas refers to the Evanuris as "the first of my people". Did he mean it literally, as in the very first elves to exist?

[Reznore57]

It is interesting that Solas refers to the Evanuris as "the first of my people". Did he mean it literally, as in the very first elves to exist?

 

Who knows?

Legends would say yes ,but there are still myth and legends.

 

Anyway if  the theory some ancient elves were spirits who turned fleshed is true, you have to wonder about reproduction.

Could they reproduce the normal way , and if it was the case , would there be a difference between an elf born in Thedas and an elf who used to be a spirit?

There's a lot of questions about the ancient elven empire , and the pre veil world.

Even the slave/servant class is a bit of an headache , with elves being immortal , magical and in theory having access to the fade and spirits (who were used to educate people or relay informations in pre veil world) how do you keep the lower class content with their fate?

Perhaps the level of confort was very high even for the poor or the Evanuris had ways to keep everybody in check.

[Gervaise]

The relationship between the majority and their rulers may well have been simply a matter of perspective.   Solas calls them tyrants and the masses slaves, marked with vallaslin to indicate as much.   Felassan suggests to Briala that there was a class system, with servants and nobles.     Abelas definitely doesn't strike me as a downtrodden slave; he is devoted to Mythal and bound to her service but it is clear from the codex (that must have been his) that he chose to enter her service.     None of the memories in the Library are jumping around with glee at the loss of their gods.  

 

Solas seems very devoted to the idea of freedom.   Clearly some elves didn't like serving the Evanuris and he gave them sanctuary.    Still it isn't clear if this occurred before or after Mythal's death.      The set up under the Evanuris sounds a lot like Tevinter, where there are slaves but Dorian, who comes from the ruling elite, is perfectly willing to defend that system and suggest it is in actual fact better for the underclass than the system in the south.    Clearly there are decent Magisters who treat their slaves well but there are equally those who abuse them.    However, is that any different to the way the nobles act in the south, particularly the Chevaliers?    How was Celene sacrificing her entire household of servants to impress another noble to give her the edge in the Game any different to a Magister sacrificing a bunch of slaves in a blood magic ritual to give him the edge against other Magisters?   Solas says that Mythal cared for her people - were they slaves or not?   Did he only start to question the system after her death?       Can you really equate a world where everyone was immortal and its very foundations were built on magic with our understanding of political systems?

 

I would point out that Solas tearing down the current system of governance without having anything to put in its place was highly irresponsible.    It was like Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt and then just up and left them in the middle of the desert.     Then he moans that on his return after millennia asleep, the world wasn't the idyllic paradise he intended.    If he had stuck around and helped the survivors of his actions rebuild, may be things would have been a lot different.     I thought it laughable when he described the survivors as appearing like tranquil; even without the sudden loss of magic and their world literally crashing down around them, I think they would have been shell shocked and confused with no one in charge.  If they truly had been downtrodden slaves, the effect on them would have been even greater.   Was it surprising that they simply became prey for the next group who fancied themselves as leaders, who were likely the nobles who prospered under the Evanuris.

 

As for the difference between the ancient elves and the modern one, I think that is entirely due to the fact that the latter were born/created outside of the Fade.    Even if the originals were not actually spirits themselves, it is clear (even from the writing of the Evanurius) that they had a strong connection to them; may be it was some sort of soul bond between an elf and a spirit that gave them their immortality.   So after the raising of the Veil that couldn't exist.    There is a difference in the elves from other races (humans at least) because of the magical signature in their blood but that is as far as it goes.   The ancient ones who were born of the Fade still have a stronger connection to it, which is why they can enter uthenera to prolong their lives but they would eventually die as the modern elves do if they didn't do this.   I think uthenera in the modern world is more akin to hibernation, so it only requires a minute amount of Fade energy to maintain it, which is still possible to achieve.     Uthenera in the ancient world may have fulfilled a different purpose and drew on the Fade in a different and much more substantial way.

 

With regard to the identifying of ancient elven artefacts with the Veil, it may be that the term "Veil" meant something different back then.    Those artefacts that Solas directs us to were meant to strengthen the Veil (at least that is what he maintained), although since they weren't working when we find them, I do wonder if they might have the opposite effect.   Other people have suggested that something Veil-like did exist; it could even have been a creation of the Evanuris to contain magic they wanted to keep from others or protect them from.    All Solas did was use something that already existed in a limited way and magnify it.    This would make sense since the magic already existed and he didn't have to invent it from scratch.    Otherwise I still wonder how he had the knowledge and power to do what he did without aid from others.    Having a number of artefacts set up around the place, all tuned to a central point and then activated would account for how he was able to pull it off.    Still if they needed to be working to establish and maintain the Veil, who switched them off?    Was it when Corypheus activated the orb the first time?    If they were really so important, why didn't he make more of an issue about finding them?     In fact what were some of them doing being placed so obviously in the open and why had no one queried before what they were for?    I'm particularly thinking of the ones in old Crestwood.    Mind you there is a similar weirdness about those shards that we locate with occulara.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Gervaise:   And "if" those artifacts either strengthen or weaken the Veil... is it only over the continent we're aware of?  Did he travel the entire globe placing these artifacts?  

The scope of Thedas is too small for Solas' claims to be true (that, or Bioware's design is flimsy).

 

The term for the "Veil" seems to be obviously known in the ancient elven world... so now, I just want to figure out what Bioware chose to use the same word for two different things - or just how far Solas' lies go.

[In Exile]

@Gervaise: And "if" those artifacts either strengthen or weaken the Veil... is it only over the continent we're aware of? Did he travel the entire globe placing these artifacts?
The scope of Thedas is too small for Solas' claims to be true (that, or Bioware's design is flimsy).

The term for the "Veil" seems to be obviously known in the ancient elven world... so now, I just want to figure out what Bioware chose to use the same word for two different things - or just how far Solas' lies go.

We have no idea what the Thedas is - we assume it's a planet but we have no reason to believe it. And theres no reason to dispute Solas perpetrating a global catastrophe from a set location.

[kimgoold]

In DAO in my first playthru I played a female elven mage and since then I cant play the other races as canon. I love the different take on elves the Devs took in DA. My love for this franchise made the changes they made to the appearance of elves from DAO to DA2 really hard to accept and the broken arm in DAI has saddened me, I truly hope they return to the appearance from DAO for the elves in future DA games.

 

DAO I saw my Surana as a reformer and great believer in redemption, so she was greatly wounded by Jowan's betrayal. DA2 I fell in love with Fenris the tortured brooder was my favourite elf in the entire series (not including the HoF or Inquisitor). DAI I saw my female mage Lavellan as a very openminded and caring person who unlike her tribe mates saw people not races, and while she and Sera had many differences they bonded like sisters over this shared viewpoint.

 

I would like to think that if my Surana and Lavellan met (my HoF is Not dead) they would have great Respect for one another.

[Reznore57]

As far as I know "Veilfire" is the human word , Tevinter studied the stuff but we don't know the ancient elven word for it.

It might be called "Magic fire" or "Fade Fire" or "Elgar'nan burning passion of doom " or whatever.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Actually, despite their title of "Creators", elven legends acknowledge that the sun and the earth existed long before the Evanuris appeared. It was a point made by Gaider in an old thread that elven religion and the cult of the Old Gods don't really have a creator entity like the Maker in their pantheons.

Actually in that post he says Andraste was advocating a return to Maker worship, meaning it had existed before Andraste. The cult of the old gods didn't say the maker didn't exist, just that the old gods (who i believe were acknowledged as his creations) were worthy of worship.

[Mistic]

Actually in that post he says Andraste was advocating a return to Maker worship, meaning it had existed before Andraste. The cult of the old gods didn't say the maker didn't exist, just that the old gods (who i believe were acknowledged as his creations) were worthy of worship.

 

Exactly. That's why I mentioned specifically "the cult of the old gods" and their "pantheon". Ancient Tevinter religion acknowledged the existence of a Maker-like entity, but the worshipped pantheon of Old Gods didn't include him, only the dragon gods. Who were very powerful, but not really creator deities.

 

That makes me wonder: did ancient elves had a similar belief? Did they have an ancient creator deity (or deities) whose worship was forgotten in favour of the Evanuris? It's interesting that Solas in his party banter with Cassandra isn't opposed to the concept of the Maker, and likes the idea of "a god that does not need to prove his power".

[Heimdall]

Actually in that post he says Andraste was advocating a return to Maker worship, meaning it had existed before Andraste. The cult of the old gods didn't say the maker didn't exist, just that the old gods (who i believe were acknowledged as his creations) were worthy of worship.

If I'm recalling WoT2 correctly, I think it actually indicates that the Old Gods are perceived as originating outside the creator's plan and seen as saviors in comparison to the absent creator.

 

It is interesting that Solas refers to the Evanuris as "the first of my people". Did he mean it literally, as in the very first elves to exist?

Well, there is the theory that the elves were originally spirits that took on physical form, which could mean that the Evanuris were the first to do so.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Exactly. That's why I mentioned specifically "the cult of the old gods" and their "pantheon". Ancient Tevinter religion acknowledged the existence of a Maker-like entity, but the worshipped pantheon of Old Gods didn't include him, only the dragon gods. Who were very powerful, but not really creator deities.

Ah. Apologies. I misunderstood then.

[Medhia_Nox]

We have no idea what the Thedas is - we assume it's a planet but we have no reason to believe it. And theres no reason to dispute Solas perpetrating a global catastrophe from a set location.

 

If he was using the artifacts there is.  They either weaken or strengthen the Veil in the area they're in.  

 

We at least know there is more land beyond Par Volen.  

[Gervaise]

Well according to the Chant of Light the old gods made it a condition of rewarding their worshipers with power that they reject the Maker and make offerings exclusively to them.     Trouble is we don't know how much of this was propaganda and how much reflected the situation at the time.     It isn't just the Tevene who gave up on the Maker.    There is the animist worship of the Alamarri, the nature gods of the Avaar and the pantheist worship of the Rivaini.   The latter believe their god and the universe are one and the same, which is actually quite close to what Leliana seemed to believe back in DAO.    However, none of these specifically acknowledge the Maker as the first cause of their universe, which is presumably why Andraste understood that he felt forgotten by all.   

 

What is not clear was how the Maker regarded the elves and dwarves in the grand scheme of things.   Chantry propaganda is that they are further from the Maker than humanity but there is no explanation for why they should think this other than the fact they are not mentioned in the Chant and they seem to have no tradition of ever having worshipped the Maker.   Yet we now know that both communities have forgotten a lot of their history (or conveniently erased the bits they didn't want to remember) so may be they did worship the Maker.     It is a complaint of the Maker against the spirits of the Fade that they did nothing but worship him rather than doing something creative, which is why he came up with the idea of a material world in the first place.    Now Solas maintains that the Evanuris only rose to power on the back of war.   May be before that all the elves were like the spirits, equal, happy and not doing much of significance until something caused the war that stirred them into action.    Then if they had been aware of the Maker, they turned from him (just as it is claimed the humans did) because in the war he did nothing to aid them and so they gave their worship to those that did.

[Qun00]

Speaking of the Old Gods, I grow more and more inclined to believe they were evil entities. Corypheus confirmed this much: The ancient magisters did enter the Fade in their name.

[Hellion Rex]

Speaking of the Old Gods, I grow more and more inclined to believe they were evil entities. Corypheus confirmed this much: The ancient magisters did enter the Fade in their name.

True, but we have no clue if they were actually the ones doing the calling. We have many, many entities at large right now. Unfortunately only now are we learning which ones are still in the game.

 

We know of the Forbidden Ones, the Forgotten Ones (Geldauran, specifically), and the trapped Evanuris. In the case of the Evanuris, there's nothing that says that they could not reach out across the Veil and touch the minds of particularly powerful mages. 

 

Side note: Were the Magisters Sidereal Dreamers?

[The Ascendant]

The Old Gods do seem to be connected to the Forgotten Ones in some way I believe.
I believe that the Forgotten Ones took the form of Dragons, a 'divine' form, to mock the Evanuris and when the Veil was erected they were trapped in the physical world, while the Evanuris were trapped in the Fade. When humans arrived the Forgotten Ones/Old Gods taught the magic of the Elves, Dreamer/Sominari magic especially and took their chance to fill the power vacuum left by the Creators. That is my theory at any rate.