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[In Exile]

We don't know why the Evanuris reserved the dragon shapeshift for themselves. We know from Yavana that dragons - ancient dragons -"ruled" the pre-Veil world. For all we know the story about stealing the "sun" was about stealing their form.

The forgotten ones eschewed worshipers, not the form of a dragon. The one time we learn about the sacredness of that form it is with a random elf being punished for assuming it.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Speaking of the Old Gods, I grow more and more inclined to believe they were evil entities. Corypheus confirmed this much: The ancient magisters did enter the Fade in their name.

 

Its probably safe to say they're evil entities, regardless of whether they're the ones who called the magisters into the city. Take Andoral, for instance. I don't see how you can get to be the dragon/god of slavery and be morally ambiguous. The other ones may or may not have been much better. We don't really have any lore about the gods themselves to go from. Not like the evanuris, with stories that tell us how they dealt with situations and followers' requests, and whether there was any infighting--if there can be infighting while all the parties involved are trapped in boxes miles below ground, that is. I think its technically possible there was a "nicer" dragon god, but we've no evidence of it, yet.

[Hellion Rex]

The forgotten ones eschewed worshipers, not the form of a dragon. The one time we learn about the sacredness of that form it is with a random elf being punished for assuming it.

But what if that was just the start? I wonder if that "random" elf turned into one of the Forgotten Ones down the road. The punishment for his curiosity might have lit a fire of resentment and rebellion.

[Reznore57]

Its probably safe to say they're evil entities, regardless of whether they're the ones who called the magisters into the city. Take Andoral, for instance. I don't see how you can get to be the dragon/god of slavery and be morally ambiguous. The other ones may or may not have been much better. We don't really have any lore about the gods themselves to go from. Not like the evanuris, with stories that tell us how they dealt with situations and followers' requests, and whether there was any infighting--if there can be infighting while all the parties involved are trapped in boxes miles below ground, that is. I think its technically possible there was a "nicer" dragon god, but we've no evidence of it, yet.

 

I somehow doubt Andoral dragon of slavery was truly Andoral , or even Dumat dragon of Silence.

I assume it's name Tevinter made up , Dumat doesn't speak (dragon of silence) he was supposed to communicate through dreams and that's all there is to it.

You can get an example of such dreams in WOT2 , and it's the equivalent of Leliana vision with her rose.She says the Maker send the dream to her , but of course she would assume such a thing because the Maker is the god she believes in.There's nothing in the actual dream pointing out the Maker is involved beyond a Leliana knows it is the case because she "feels " it.

 

Problem with the Old Gods is Tevinter was already fond of dragons before coming to Thedas , they thought their heroes were reborn as dragons (something you can still find in the cult of Haven , with "Andraste "reborn.)

Dumat , Razikel , blablabla , could simply be names of old forgotten Tevinter heroes and nothing else.

Honestly Tevinter met the Old Gods in the fade , but anything in the fade could look like a dragon that's not saying much.

Same with what the Old Gods were supposed to be doing , it's nothing special .Teaching blood magic , well demons do it alright.

It seems the ancient elves also had knowledge of blood magic , there's even hints Tevinter learned magic from the elves and not from their Gods.

 

On top of it , like I said Tevinter had dealings with elves and pillaged part of their culture.Humans were fond of dragons already , and for elves the dragon form was also seen as Divine.

It seems to me Tevinter were unaware of the actual Old Gods , the ones trapped underground...because they never tried to free their Gods , the old Gods prison were underground , and back then there were no darkspawn and Tevinter was getting along with the dwarves so at the very least they could have build temple or holy places where the bodies of their Gods were resting , but no such things.

If say Tevinter had vague knowledge of The Maker and the Old Gods having a falling out , well that would be some kind of mythology for the Old Gods.But again no such things ,we've never find any mythology about the Old Gods , beyond the Chant of Light.

 

All you're left with is a bunch of humans toying with the Fade , meeting some powerful thing in there , started to worship it , not giving a damn about the body of their gods , about rescuing them , or even about their story.

By all means it looks very very much like a simple relationship of give and take , and it wasn't working all that great because by the time of Corypheus people were turning away from the temples.

[In Exile]

But what if that was just the start? I wonder if that "random" elf turned into one of the Forgotten Ones down the road. The punishment for his curiosity might have lit a fire of resentment and rebellion.

I think that elf turned into a corpse. My impression is that the Forgotten Ones are contemporaries of the Evanuris. They were the same type of heroes in that ancient war Solas mentioned, but were literally forgotten as the Evanuris built themselves a cult.

[Medhia_Nox]

@In Exile:  Do you think ancient dragons were like one's we're more familiar with in fantasy?  Intelligent beings?

Or... that perhaps... the Evanuris aren't elves... but dragons that don't shapeshift into dragons, but shapeshift instead into elves?  

 

I simply can't imagine how the dumb animals of the modern age "ruled" Thedas. The dragons of the Dragon Age aren't really that impressive... they're just destructive. 

[Heimdall]

@In Exile: Do you think ancient dragons were like one's we're more familiar with in fantasy? Intelligent beings?

Or... that perhaps... the Evanuris aren't elves... but dragons that don't shapeshift into dragons, but shapeshift instead into elves?

I simply can't imagine how the dumb animals of the modern age "ruled" Thedas. The dragons of the Dragon Age aren't really that impressive... they're just destructive.

Could it be that putting up the Veil stripped them of their intelligence? Or maybe only the greatest of them (Old Gods? Great Dragons?) actually possessed much in the way of intellect, but could direct the others. Or maybe the elves did something to them.

EDIT: Or maybe dragon "rule", amounted to something like the situation with "Andraste" in Haven, where the lesser species took care of the dragon's young or were eaten. Curiously that dragon seemed to be intelligent enough to voluntarily give up some of its blood to the cult as part of its rituals.

[Reznore57]

I know it isn't a question adressed to me , but whatever.I think it's interesting to wonder about people who shapeshifted into dragons , and dragons/dragons.

Spoiler below for a somewhat incoherant wall of text.

Spoiler

Honestly it's kinda hard to tell with the lore we got.

Like Yavana talks about a time when great dragons ruled the sky.Well for all we know it might have been the Evanuris , they ruled and they could shapeshift in dragons (lots of prayers to different gods talks of their dark wings of death or something) or perhaps it was dragon /dragon.

But then what would have been the relationship with the ancient elves who were pretty much set on ruling Thedas and those huge beasts?

The Old Gods are they dragon/dragon or the body of a humanoid who shapeshifted?

There's talks about the dwarves being really scared of dragons , but then there's talf of the dwarves being afraid of Elgar'nan...so again were the dwarves afraid of dragons or  the Evanuris?

 

Now it seems to me true dragon were a thing , because Mythal had a dragon protecting her altar.She also send her daughter Yavana to save Great Dragons who are asleep and they can't wake up the normal way with a cup of tea , now they need a cup of special blood.

Yavana also had a pet dragon , she talks to it in a unknown language and it seems the beast understands.

There was also "Andraste" in Haven who was in a form of symbiosis with the cult .Humans were protecting her eggs , sometimes feeding her young and in exchange she let them sacrifice some of her dragonling(?small male dragon) so they could drink the blood.

So it seems humanoid can tame dragons , and even a bunch of crazy cultist without great magic or unknown language can live in peace with a dragon.

 

Flemeth also says " Perhaps I am a dragon." I know she was joking but maybe there's a hint of truth behind that.

 

To throw in more confusing and unrelated stuff because why not it's the week end ,I'm bordeline brain dead.

OGB Kieran says to an Dalish Inquisitor "Your blood is very old , and why do you choose to look like that?"

And Cole says  to an elf Inqui "Pulled , blood that isn't blood ...."

 

It is possible the "pulled" is a reference to the pulled from the fade stuff , but pulled doesn't sound like it was a decision .

Blood that isn't blood ...er...talk about strange.We know elven blood is somewhat different , it is more magical , and elves can breed with other races but they don't mix well because whatever elven heritage exist it is overwritten by less magical races.

"Why do you choose to look like that?" guess it's a hint at the shapeshifting abilities , we know humans can learn to shapeshift as well but perhaps it used to be far more natural to elves.

 

Edit : to add more confusion to the mix.Yavana when talking about Alistair having dragon blood.

"Your heart beats with the old blood , as well.Where do you think it comes from?It sings of a time when dragons ruled the skies.A time before the Veil , before the mysteries were forgotten.Can you hear it "

 

That old blood.

 

Anyway talking about blood , and getting back to dragons.

Yavana says the blood of the dragons is the blood of the world.

We know Flemythal thinks dragons are important enough.

I have no idea what dragons being the blood of the world means .

Dragons are also somewhat resistant to the Blight , their body can contain it and isolate it for a while.Some humans shows the same possibilities , such as Leliana.

But with Flemeth feeding great dragons blood to an unknown number of humans in the past , it's impossible to know if some humans have some natural similarities with dragons , or if some human have trace of dragon blood thanks to Flemeth.

 

Also remember Flemeth in DA2 eating darkspawn?Yeah , not sure I would want a darkspawn in my mouth.It might be pure gameplay or perhaps our friend Mythal has some strange secrets.

 

And it went all over the place , and probably didn't answer anything sorry about that.

 

[Andromelek]

Yeah, that prank of Flemeth and the hints of Qunari being somewhat related to Dragons have made me wonder... what if Dragons were able to shapeshift and once one hooked up with an elf? I know shapeshifting is magic but magic can't disregard your DNA, right?


Also, addressing Great Dragons, I find interesting a string of coincidences, first Sten says that Old Gods were unto Dragons what Kings were unto men, then Yavana addresses her Great Dragon as the Queen, and finally we find out that Razikale was actually a girl.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I somehow doubt Andoral dragon of slavery was truly Andoral , or even Dumat dragon of Silence.

I assume it's name Tevinter made up , Dumat doesn't speak (dragon of silence) he was supposed to communicate through dreams and that's all there is to it.

You can get an example of such dreams in WOT2 , and it's the equivalent of Leliana vision with her rose.She says the Maker send the dream to her , but of course she would assume such a thing because the Maker is the god she believes in.There's nothing in the actual dream pointing out the Maker is involved beyond a Leliana knows it is the case because she "feels " it.

 

I suppose I don't have any response that shows that that dragon was definitely named "Andoral", as opposed to the Tevinters giving it that name when it communicated to them, but I also don't see your point there? It could have been "Bob, Dragon of Slavery". My point was being a patron of slavery was bad.

 

If you're trying to say the old god dragons that turn to archdemons during the blights weren't really the beings that Tevinter was worshipping, only thinking they were, again, its possible. But the memories we can read in the Fade in Here Lies the Abyss showed a priest who sees archdemon Dumat attacking his city in the first blight and he talks about how he "knows the look of those scales" or something. Like he recognized Dumat specifically from among other dragons.

 

How he did this, I don't know. I know the statues int he temple looked like Dumat and he recognized that, but how the statues in the temple resemble Dumat in the first place, I dunno. visions of the dragon to the artists maybe?

 

Loremongers, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as we know the Old Gods have been stuck underground for as long as they've been mentioned in the lore, right? Like, they were never out and about among the Tevinters like the Evanuris were among the elves?

[The Ascendant]

The Tevinters encountered the Old Gods in the Fade, they never physically interacted with them, but they were a present part of their lives. Corypheus makes many mentions of the whispers of Dumat, and the lack of them upon his return was a source of great concern for him.

[Andromelek]

@AlleluiaElizabeth The same memories mention that he saw his statue before, so, they may have known the Dragons but these banished even long before Corypheus was priest.

[In Exile]

@In Exile:  Do you think ancient dragons were like one's we're more familiar with in fantasy?  Intelligent beings?

Or... that perhaps... the Evanuris aren't elves... but dragons that don't shapeshift into dragons, but shapeshift instead into elves?  

 

I simply can't imagine how the dumb animals of the modern age "ruled" Thedas. The dragons of the Dragon Age aren't really that impressive... they're just destructive. 

They could just be a force of nature. They "ruled" the world because they were the apex predator. The Evanuris learned to mimic their shape and by subjugating them build their Empire. That's a theory.

[Hellion Rex]

One other thing I want to know is what the hell Mythal was doing "awakening" those Great dragons through Yavana? 

[Qun00]

Dragons are awesome, no further justification needed.

[Andromelek]

One other thing I want to know is what the hell Mythal was doing "awakening" those Great dragons through Yavana?

Well, the Evanuris killed Mythal, Solas said he couldn't kill them and was forced to seal them away instead, then Titus got the power of a dreamer thanks to the blood of Great Dragons if Mythal wants revenge, having such powerful creatures as allies could grant her the upper hand.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

Note: all those images does not belong to me it was created by various artists from deviantart.

My ideal PoC elven sentinel

[Gervaise]

The area of interest ascribed to the Old Gods of Tevinter seems to have changed over time, at least if you go by World of Thedas 1.

Page 21: Holidays.   Andoralis was dedicated to Andoral, the Old God of Unity, not slaves, while Saturnalia was once dedicated to Zazikel, the Old Goddess of Freedom, not chaos.

Page 123: Tevinter Religion.   The list of Old Gods now has Andoral shown as the Dragon of Slaves but Zazikel is still shown as the Dragon of Freedom.

Page 147: The Blight.   Now Zazikel is described as the Dragon of Chaos.

 

Is this just very poor editorial checking or did the Tevene regard some of the old gods in a different way over time?     Is it later perception that makes devotion to Andoral as god of unity turn into god of slaves - did later scholars see the chains of unity as the chains of slavery?    Did Zazikel only become the Dragon of Chaos after they arose during the 2nd Blight?    So what once was seen as the champion of freedom has now simply become chaos?

 

Dragons do seem to have a degree of intelligence that enables communication with them, as demonstrated by the cult at Haven, and also the possibility of gaining their loyalty, as with the guardian dragon you came tame.     On the whole, the dragons we fight are aggressive because we have either attacked first or entered their territory but if you have the right knowledge it seems you can control them even there, as with Yavana.  

 

So the "Dragons ruling the  Skies" could simply have referred to shapeshifting Evanuris or there is also the possibility that the skies were literally ruled by dragons, being the predominant creature on the surface of the world,  accounting for why both the elves and the dwarves seemed to have underground cities.  In which case, the Evanuris all had the same relationship to powerful old dragons that Corypheus had to his dragon: it was a case of shared soul.    In this scenario I would favour the imprisoned dragon gods being the alter ego of the trapped Evanuris regardless of what name the Tevinter knew them by.   When the archdemon is killed, it either obliterates that half of the Evanuris' soul or more likely it releases it to join back up with them either straight away or when their prison is finally opened.   This would account for why Solas is so frantic about the idea of killing the old dragon gods and Flemeth wants to "save" their souls, giving her more power in the process.

[Qun00]

As interesting as ironbark armor is, I wouldn't recommend fighting mages or demons in flammable gear...

[Gervaise]

Since ironbark is said to be much stronger than normal wood, may be it is more fire resistant as well.    One advantage of using ironbark, at least against mages, is that likely won't absorb the heat or cold as much as metal armour and it won't conduct electricity as easily either.    Likely it is also lighter.   The main reason the Dalish use it though is that it is readily available to them and workable without needing blacksmiths tools and forge.

[The Ascendant]

I have to admit that armor that the sentinels and Solas use is petty epic. It looks so metallic, yet it is classified as light amour. It sounds a lot like Mithril

[Reznore57]

I have to admit that armor that the sentinels and Solas use is petty epic. It looks so metallic, yet it is classified as light amour. It sounds a lot like Mithril

 

I have no idea what their armors are made of but it seems they are like the ancient elves , they do not age and retain the same quality through time.Might be magic though and not just a special material.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Yeah it seems pretty likely that there are enchantments involved to keep weapons and armor thousands of years old from falling apart.

 

As for ironbark, maybe it isn't fire resistant on its own and the Dalish treat it with a flame retardant? Or maybe its just not fire resistant at all and Dalish warriors should avoid rage demons, mages, and people with torches at all costs?

[Qun00]

The Tevinters encountered the Old Gods in the Fade, they never physically interacted with them, but they were a present part of their lives. Corypheus makes many mentions of the whispers of Dumat, and the lack of them upon his return was a source of great concern for him.

If Corypheus bothered getting an update on history, he would know that Dumat was slain as an archdemon.

[Hellion Rex]

I have another question that's always bugged me. How the hell did people connect the Archdemons when they arose with the Old Gods? How did they know that Archdemon #1 was an Old God, let alone specifically Dumat?