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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Old Gods appear to be individually recognizable. 

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

I have another question that's always bugged me. How the hell did people connect the Archdemons when they arose with the Old Gods? How did they know that Archdemon #1 was an Old God, let alone specifically Dumat?

 

Old Gods appear to be individually recognizable. 

Yeah, apparently Dumat was recognizable on sight. I don't know how you can tell with how blighted the bodies are, but they can apparently.

[rolson00]

Finally getting DA:I on the One finally get to play the DLC off topic but to hell with the police

[Reznore57]

Finally getting DA:I on the One finally get to play the DLC off topic but to hell with the police

 

Well it's great , you will be able to play Trespasser!

[Gervaise]

There is only one example of the old god being recognisable on sight and that is the text in the Fade from one of his followers.   Even so, I think this was based on pictures he had seen in the Temple, not having previously met the dragon in person, so it could have just been coincidence that the two looked the same.  I mean one big black dragon, for example, looks much the same as another big black dragon.

 

From what I could tell from the source books, it was suggested that it was Andraste who positively identified the archdemon as an old god/Dumat, presumably from visions she was given by the Maker.    However, what seems more pertinent is that the Grey Wardens seemed to know it was Dumat because they used its corpse to entrap Corypheus.   They also appear to have made his prison on the site of an old Temple of Dumat, so clearly they must have had some reason to make the connection between the two.

 

So presumably it is the Grey Wardens who identify which archdemon has arisen.   Dumat arose at a time when his worship was still in existence but the other archdemons arose long after their worship had been superseded and their temples re-purposed to worship of the Maker, so there would have been few visual records left (only a few decaying statues in Tevinter) to identify the individual old gods.    Only someone in direct contact with them would be able to say who they were.

[Qun00]

You know... I have great respect for the first Dalish elves.

They weren't used to living in the wilderness like the current generation is. But they were like "Screw it, I'd rather wander endlessly than give up my culture".

[In Exile]

You know... I have great respect for the first Dalish elves.

They weren't used to living in the wilderness like the current generation is. But they were like "Screw it, I'd rather wander endlessly than give up my culture".

But they did give up their culture. That was a forgone conclusion when they lost. The only difference is how they chose to defy Orlais.

[Qun00]

How so? If you mean their inaccurate lore, that already was case long before the Exalted March happened.

[In Exile]

How so? If you mean their inaccurate lore, that already was case long before the Exalted March happened.

No. I mean the city-based and sedentary culture of the Dales is totally different from the nomadic lifestyle of the Dalish. They're not even remotely the same. Sure you see some general, high level similarities - but we had a feudal culture with its own noble class etc. all of which fell away. Then there's the focus on restoring the past and a frustration with what happened to the Dales, etc.

It's not the same culture. Just like how modern Tevinter is a different culture.

[Qun00]

Hmm, that's true. But a partial loss still is preferable to a full one. At least they don't worship the Maker.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

From what I could tell from the source books, it was suggested that it was Andraste who positively identified the archdemon as an old god/Dumat, presumably from visions she was given by the Maker.    However, what seems more pertinent is that the Grey Wardens seemed to know it was Dumat because they used its corpse to entrap Corypheus.   They also appear to have made his prison on the site of an old Temple of Dumat, so clearly they must have had some reason to make the connection between the two.

 

So presumably it is the Grey Wardens who identify which archdemon has arisen. 

I wonder if there is some connection btwn this fact and the fact that the wardens were able to develop the joining ritual, with noted influence from Tevinter mages of the time, when no one else had any idea how to permanently kill the archdemons. WoT v2 (or maybe it was mentioned in v1?) seemed to indicate there were mysterious circumstances around the creation of the joining ritual and it was too convenient that the wardens developed it when they did.

 

Hmm, that's true. But a partial loss still is preferable to a full one. At least they don't worship the Maker.

Ameridan seemed ok with both the Maker and the Creators. And considering recent revelations that the creators were just elves themselves, I think it'd be appropriate if Creator worship eventually fell down to the level of ancestor veneration. I'd see no reason why the Dalish couldn't believe in the Maker, too, if they wanted a God, and still stay authentically Elven.

 

Some people give Cass a lot of crap for her "Is there no room among your gods for one more?" comment, but ironically btwn the Maker and the Creators, the Maker is the only one left possibly standing. The Maker may or may not be real, but the Creators are definitely not gods and instead are a bunch of elven mage-kings who got famous.

[Vit246]

Ameridan seemed ok with both the Maker and the Creators. And considering recent revelations that the creators were just elves themselves, I think it'd be appropriate if Creator worship eventually fell down to the level of ancestor veneration. I'd see no reason why the Dalish couldn't believe in the Maker, too, if they wanted a God, and still stay authentically Elven.

 

Some people give Cass a lot of crap for her "Is there no room among your gods for one more?" comment, but ironically btwn the Maker and the Creators, the Maker is the only one left possibly standing. The Maker may or may not be real, but the Creators are definitely not gods and instead are a bunch of elven mage-kings who got famous.

There is no one definition of what counts as gods and nobody gets to decide that for the Dalish. They shouldn't feel they have to downgrade themselves. There may not be a reason why Dalish can't believe in the Maker but why the hell bother when they have their own gods. Besides, "just elves"? They were more than "just elves". They were so powerful on another level they may as well have been considered gods in their own right.

 

Cass gets shite because she implies the Chantry would actually be tolerant of pagan gods and the Dalish are the ones being intolerant.

 

EDIT: Frankly, the only reason for them to believe in the Maker is if it would shut up the chantry zealots.

Modifié par Vit246, 05 mai 2016 - 10:42 .

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

There is no one definition of what counts as gods and nobody gets to decide that for the Dalish. They shouldn't feel they have to downgrade themselves. There may not be a reason why Dalish can't believe in the Maker but why the hell bother when they have their own gods. Besides, "just elves"? They were more than "just elves". They were so powerful on another level they may as well have been considered gods in their own right.

 

Cass gets shite because she implies the Chantry would actually be tolerant of pagan gods and the Dalish are the ones being intolerant.

 

I only meant "downgrade" in the sense that ancestors are objectively not on the same divinity level as gods. Which most people can agree on, even religions that don't have gods. Gods are a different animal.

 

And yes they were just elves. Very powerful elves, but this is like claiming the 7 who stepped into the Golden City are gods. That Cory was a god b/c he's done something previously impossible and shown his great magical prowess in doing so. That was what the Evanuris basically were in their day, mages who did what other mages couldn't (or what they stopped them from doing by force). You don't get godhood just cus you're super strong/powerful/important. Its the same reason that the pharaohs of egypt and certain roman emperors weren't gods even when they claimed to be, the same reason Corypheus wouldn't have been a god even if he had entered the Black City. Godhood isn't something you attain.

[The Ascendant]

I am curious how early humans interacted with the Elves.

[In Exile]

There is no one definition of what counts as gods and nobody gets to decide that for the Dalish. They shouldn't feel they have to downgrade themselves. There may not be a reason why Dalish can't believe in the Maker but why the hell bother when they have their own gods. Besides, "just elves"? They were more than "just elves". They were so powerful on another level they may as well have been considered gods in their own right.

 

Cass gets shite because she implies the Chantry would actually be tolerant of pagan gods and the Dalish are the ones being intolerant.

 

Godhood isn't just about power. They were powerful mages, sure, but that doesn't mean they were gods in the usual sense people use - as different kinds of beings, with some inherent sort of "divinity". Even gods that aren't conceptually omnipotent or omniscient (e.g. the greek or norse gods) are still not considered the same as humans. But the Evanuris were, as far as we know, just elves. The same sort of being, like Solas.

[Qun00]

Do you guys remember Zevran's joke about tattoos?

"Alistair: You need to... bathe me? That seems... odd.

Zevran: No, no, no, not at all. It needs to be worked into your skin, preparing it to receive the ink."

Well, take a look at the vallaslin codex:

"The ritual deserves great reverence. The one who is to gain the vallaslin must prepare by meditating on the gods and the ways of our people, and by purifying the body and the skin. "

LOL

[Reznore57]

Do you guys remember Zevran's joke about tattoos?

"Alistair: You need to... bathe me? That seems... odd.

Zevran: No, no, no, not at all. It needs to be worked into your skin, preparing it to receive the ink."

Well, take a look at the vallaslin codex:

"The ritual deserves great reverence. The one who is to gain the vallaslin must prepare by meditating on the gods and the ways of our people, and by purifying the body and the skin. "

LOL

 

"Keeper why do you want me to get naked , and what is this sponge for?"

"We need to purify you da'len."

"Oooo..kay."

 

Not awkward at all.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I don't blame Zatharin for what he did to the humans who killed his son and daughter and he cursed them for it, and the werewolves attacked the Dalish and he has every right to exact revenge of those monsters who harmed the people. I helped him with his revenge and to see real justice has been done, you don't know how good it feels to release that anger. It soothes my mind thinking about it.

[In Exile]

I don't blame Zatharin for what he did to the humans who killed his son and daughter and he cursed them for it, and the werewolves attacked the Dalish and he has every right to exact revenge of those monsters who harmed the people. I helped him with his revenge and to see real justice has been done, you don't know how good it feels to release that anger. It soothes my mind thinking about it.

I don't think anyone begrudges Zathrian his revenge on the people who perpetrared those crimes. Calling it justice is clearly wrong, since the two are totally unrelated. And in this case, Zathrian isn't even getting revenge - he's just abusing the great grandchildren of people who did him wrong, who are clearly innocent. This isn't like Orlesian oppression of the CEs - in that case you can at least argue that the descendants of the abusers have profited from the abuse and perpetrate an abusive structure. Here, you've got an innocent group of people who aren't even around Zathrian.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't think anyone begrudges Zathrian his revenge on the people who perpetrared those crimes. Calling it justice is clearly wrong, since the two are totally unrelated. And in this case, Zathrian isn't even getting revenge - he's just abusing the great grandchildren of people who did him wrong, who are clearly innocent. This isn't like Orlesian oppression of the CEs - in that case you can at least argue that the descendants of the abusers have profited from the abuse and perpetrate an abusive structure. Here, you've got an innocent group of people who aren't even around Zathrian.

Not to mention the humans who aren't connected at all but have been attacked and turned throughout the centuries since the curse existed. 

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I don't think anyone begrudges Zathrian his revenge on the people who perpetrared those crimes. Calling it justice is clearly wrong, since the two are totally unrelated. And in this case, Zathrian isn't even getting revenge - he's just abusing the great grandchildren of people who did him wrong, who are clearly innocent. This isn't like Orlesian oppression of the CEs - in that case you can at least argue that the descendants of the abusers have profited from the abuse and perpetrate an abusive structure. Here, you've got an innocent group of people who aren't even around Zathrian.

"...and I would strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroys my brothers. And you know my name is THE LORD! Where I lay my vengeance upon thee!" That's how I see the situation is black and white not shades of gray.

[In Exile]

Not to mention the humans who aren't connected at all but have been attacked and turned throughout the centuries since the curse existed.

And the Dalish. Zathrian actively spread a virulently racist myth, which he knew (at least in his case) was totally false. And his blatant disregard for the most sacred beliefs of the Dalish. He's genuinely one of the most villainous characters me meet.

[In Exile]

"...and I would strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroys my brothers. And you know my name is THE LORD! Where I lay my vengeance upon thee!" That's how I see the situation is black and white not shades of gray.

That quote doesn't help you. The whole point is that Zathrian isn't taking revenge on those who attempt to poison and destroy his brothers.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

That quote doesn't help you. The whole point is that Zathrian isn't taking revenge on those who attempt to poison and destroy his brothers.

The quote actually means (to me) if someone does you or your people harm, you have the right to take vengeance upon them like the wrath of God. It feels good to do that. You should try it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

And the Dalish. Zathrian actively spread a virulently racist myth, which he knew (at least in his case) was totally false. And his blatant disregard for the most sacred beliefs of the Dalish. He's genuinely one of the most villainous characters me meet.

Yeah. The only reason the Werewolves even attack at all is because they have tried repeatedly to be diplomatic but Zathrian has always ignored them, so they infected some of the elves so he can't ignore them anymore. 

 

The quote actually means (to me) if someone does you or your people harm, you have the right to take vengeance upon them like the wrath of God. It feels good to do that. You should try it.

But that's what In Exile is trying to tell you. Nobody who is currently suffering the curse had anything to do with what happened. If anything your quote supports the werewolves side, not Zathrian's.