964 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

Is the male elf shoulders still.... problematic?

[RawToast]

I like elves. They're pretty cool. I like playing as the underdog.

 

Hate the game models tho. They're so skinny. It was especially jarring after playing as a qunari for so long. I also personally liked the da2 elves. Idk i just liked how they were no longer just humans with pointy ears.

 

Idk what'll happen next, but i hope elves start to get treated equally. And i really hope they don't retcon Clan Lavellan helping rule Wycome. Because, man, can't something good happen to the elves for once?

 

Stuff about my Lavellan under the tag. It kinda got longer than i intended.

 

Spoiler

My Lavellan, Tuvira, is the daughter of the keeper. Her dad was an ass, only staying with the dalish so he wouldn't have to live in an alienage. Eventually push came to shove and Deshanna kicked him out, both for her sake and the sake of the clan. Tuvira was appointed first soon after, and her younger brother was in the running for second. She took her job as first pretty seriously at first, it became her identity and lead to some pretty stupid and prideful decisions. Eventually her brother knocked her down a peg, and she lightened up. She ended up dating one of her clan mates, but she wasn't into Tuvira romantically and just wanted sex. Eventually Tuvira broke up with her, since they weren't on the same wavelength and she didn't want to be strung along hoping for something that would never happen. 

 

Initially Deshanna didn't want to send Tuvira to the conclave, because she was worried for her safety. Eventually she gave in, and Tuvira left for Ferelden. She's always been curious and wanted to know more about life outside of the Dalish, since peace cannot be achieved without mutual understanding. Anyways, **** went to hell, coryphinuts ripped the sky a new one, and Tuvira got a weird ass glowy thing on her hand. 

 

She hated the title of Herald of Andraste for obvious reasons, but never outright denied it (at least before she became inquisitor) since she saw the power that title held. She did feel guilty lying about it though.

 

She ended up romancing Solas (oh the irony) and used her title as Inquisitor to help the elves of all origins. She eventually stopped actively worshiping her gods after meeting Mythal, but hasn't completely renounced them either, as she realised how very little she knows about them. Her discovery that Mythal was alive all this time and was doing nothing for the people was the last straw on the camels back. She also realised how different the Dalish and the ancient elves are, and no longer saw her people as the last of the Elvhenan, but rather the people that rose from their ashes. 

 

She puts her faith in people instead of gods who may or may not give a **** about them. 

 

Oh and she didn't remove her vallaslin, since they're no longer slave markings, but rather something that marks her as dalish. And then Solas breaks her heart, she eats nothing but cookies and chocolate for the next week and punches Coryphinuts in the face. 

 

After everything, she started to loose herself to her title. She became what the people needed of her, constantly wearing the mask of Inquisitor, even among her friends. It's her biggest fear and she was giving in to it. Eventually Dorian, Cole and Cass helped start breaking that bad habit and she was able to just be Tuvira again.

 

Oh, she also believes elves should marry whomever the **** they want. I head cannon that her clan and many other dalish are slightly homophobic. Not like "oh thats a sin shame on you" but more hey we're a dying race and we need more elven babies which wont happen if u get with someone of the same sex/another race. And since she's bi that was a shitty environment to grow up in.

 

As for the cultural bit, you can't be an elf culturally if ur not an elf. Because you wont face the same discrimination that elves do (though i imagine qunari and dwaves get close). But i guess you can be dalish culturally, even if you don't face discrimination for being an elf (though i imagine you will for being dalish).

[Vorathrad]

When Corypheus' says "We'll decide once and for all who's worthy of godhood" a non-believer Inquisitor can come up with a dry "I don't believe in gods". Definitely a cool answer that I like to use, but it misses the point of being a non-believer.

 

What is the point of being a non-believer other than... not believing in any god?  I really like that line because Corypheus is all about becoming a god, and he eventually believes that you are competing for godhood with him. Saying that you don't care about any gods is a good punch to Corypheus' ego.

 

She also realised how different the Dalish and the ancient elves are, and no longer saw her people as the last of the Elvhenan, but rather the people that rose from their ashes. 

 

I really, really love this approach. 

 

RE: appearance, none of the DA games got a design for elves that I completely like. DA:O elves were humans with pointy ears, DA2 elves looked like anime characters; DA:I was the closest one, but I'd fix the spaghetti limbs (you can have a slender built without looking like a spider) and the... ahem strange bust for male elves when in Skyhold pajamas. I'd also prevent the CC from letting you making features too human; for instance, not letting you making the eyes smaller than a certain size, or limiting the eye colours to a strange palette so they fit the "eerie elfy eyes" description.

[raging_monkey]

Is the male elf shoulders still.... problematic?

not on my copy it's all normal lucky me

[Ieldra]

What is the point of being a non-believer other than... not believing in any god?  I really like that line because Corypheus is all about becoming a god, and he eventually believes that you are competing for godhood with him. Saying that you don't care about any gods is a good punch to Corypheus' ego.

I do like this line. However, I don't feel on solid ground with it since it can be interpreted as (1) "I don't believe anyone or anything is a god", (2) "I don't believe in worshiping any god" and (3) "I don't believe anyone should aspire to godlike power". Unfortunately the context suggests a hint of (3), but the point of being a nonbeliever is actually (1) or (2) or both. My main inquisitor believes there is no limit to the power we may aspire to, but that nobody deserves to be worshiped and nobody should put their existential trust in someone else like that, regardless of how powerful that someone else is. With regard to the Maker, there's also the modern variant "I don't believe in his existence", but on Thedas that can't be generalized to cover all gods.

 

All in all, "I don't believe in gods" is a rather complex statement in spite of its simple appearance, and even more so in the context of this encounter.

[Serelir]

After everything, she started to loose herself to her title. She became what the people needed of her, constantly wearing the mask of Inquisitor, even among her friends. It's her biggest fear and she was giving in to it. Eventually Dorian, Cole and Cass helped start breaking that bad habit and she was able to just be Tuvira again.

 

Oh, she also believes elves should marry whomever the **** they want. I head cannon that her clan and many other dalish are slightly homophobic. Not like "oh thats a sin shame on you" but more hey we're a dying race and we need more elven babies which wont happen if u get with someone of the same sex/another race. And since she's bi that was a shitty environment to grow up in.

 

As for the cultural bit, you can't be an elf culturally if ur not an elf. Because you wont face the same discrimination that elves do (though i imagine qunari and dwaves get close). But i guess you can be dalish culturally, even if you don't face discrimination for being an elf (though i imagine you will for being dalish).

 

I was thinking about the role of the Inquisitor last night and thought they could have pushed it even more than they did. There are lots of conversations about faith and a few about who should lead the Inquisition, but there's very little about what a struggle that leadership role could be for certain players. Maybe it's just too much to encompass within the game, especially when the typical model is the Hero Player. My first character would have had a very difficult time being thrust into the spotlight and facing all these rumors that she's the Chosen One amd just having so many people watching her every move. My second character would have just been angry and grumpy about it, and my third would have laughed. The cardgame scene with Varric helped a lot and was one of my favorites in the whole story.

 

I was so torn on my first playthrough about my Inquisitor's romance with Cullen. I'd been looking forward to it, as I've followed the development of Cullen's character since the mage origin story in DAO. There were some two-sentence conversations about being Dalish and being a mage, and that was it! I kind of put it in the "we all might die very soon anyway" category.

 

As I thought about how my character would deal with the repercussions of marrying a human, I was reminded of some discussions about genetics and cultural identity. If you take Native Americans as a model for the Dalish (and I know that elves are based more closely on Jewish people according to the wiki), there's a lot of debate about whether DNA percentages matter - tribal membership currently isn't based on DNA and probably never will be. So what becomes important is keeping a culture alive, and this situation is similar in many minority language and cultural groups. Because of that, my thinking changed from, "Oh, no! There won't be any more elves!" to the idea that the elf-blooded could become a new cultural group in their own right. It wouldn't be as easy to discriminate against them based solely on their appearance, and if there were enough of them, they could keep Elvhen as a viable language and their customs and pantheon as an alternative to the Chantry, though not without opposition, of course. If you don't like the Native American model, think of Britain: a tiny island where people are very similar genetically, yet you can immediately distinguish a Scot from a Cockney, and each is proud of her identity and history. Of course, we lose the fun things that distinguish elves - the eyes and the ears - but maybe they'd act like recessive genes and pop up occasionally.

[Serelir]

not on my copy it's all normal lucky me

Lucky indeed! It's not so bad with my female Inquisitors if I avoid the Enchanter Mail Arms, but my poor male Inquisitor went from being buff shoulders dude to this:

 

Spoiler

 

As for the models, I like the DAI ones much, much better than the DA2 ones, though the occasional elf has a weird Voldemort look, as if their nose had been cut off or smashed flat. The Sentinel Elves look great (except for the baldness - maybe it's a monk thing).

 

I've always thought that the Dalish should be more like how Europeans described their first encounters with Native Americans: tall and handsome, because the diet and lifestyle were so healthy compared to how most Europeans lived at that time. I could see city elves being malnourished and spindly. If one thinks of the Welsh longbowmen, it takes height and tremendous strength to draw a warbow:

 

"The original draw forces of examples from the Mary Rose are estimated by Robert Hardy at 150–160 lbf (670–710 N) at a 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length; the full range of draw weights was between 100–185 lbf (440–820 N). The 30-inch (76.2 cm) draw length was used because that is the length allowed by the arrows commonly found on the Mary Rose."

 

-from Strickland, Matthew; Hardy, Robert (2005). The Great Warbow: From Hastings to the Mary Rose. Sutton Publishing. ISBN 0-7509-3167-1.

 

Here are a couple of fun videos if you're really into it:

 

How to Shoot the English Longbow

 

Shooting the Warbow, 170 lb Mary Rose Type

[YourFunnyUncle]

As I thought about how my character would deal with the repercussions of marrying a human, I was reminded of some discussions about genetics and cultural identity. If you take Native Americans as a model for the Dalish (and I know that elves are based more closely on Jewish people according to the wiki), there's a lot of debate about whether DNA percentages matter - tribal membership currently isn't based on DNA and probably never will be. So what becomes important is keeping a culture alive, and this situation is similar in many minority language and cultural groups. Because of that, my thinking changed from, "Oh, no! There won't be any more elves!" to the idea that the elf-blooded could become a new cultural group in their own right. It wouldn't be as easy to discriminate against them based solely on their appearance, and if there were enough of them, they could keep Elvhen as a viable language and their customs and pantheon as an alternative to the Chantry, though not without opposition, of course. If you don't like the Native American model, think of Britain: a tiny island where people are very similar genetically, yet you can immediately distinguish a Scot from a Cockney, and each is proud of her identity and history. Of course, we lose the fun things that distinguish elves - the eyes and the ears - but maybe they'd act like recessive genes and pop up occasionally.

I don't think the elves in DA can be shoehorned into being representatives of one real-world group. They clearly have elements taken from many oppressed cultures.

 

My wife's Mexican and the idea of Ameridan as an Andrastean who still honoured his elven heritage really made me think of Mexico.

 

In Mexico you have a prime example of cultural mixing creating a unique identity of its own, but with its own problems. The majority of Mexicans are "Mestizo" ie a mix of pre-hispanic peoples and their Spanish conquerors. Most would identify as Catholic but to differing extents across the country there are parts of pre-hispanic belief systems embedded into their beliefs and customs. 

 

There's a square in Mexico City with a pre-hispanic archeological site and a Catholic church surrounded by modern apartment buildings. It's known as the "Plaza de las Tres Culturas" (the square of the three cultures) as it represents pre-hispanic civilisation, colonialism and modern Mexico in one area. It was also the site of a bloody massacre by police during the 1968 student protests, as well as being badly hit in the 1985 earthquake, so it really does have deep resonance in Mexican history.

 

Despite the trumpeting of modern "mestizo" Mexico, the cultural and political elite tend to be of "purer" European ancestry, and all the adverts seem to feature white people as the ideal, so that legacy of colonialism remains. It's at once a wonderful and an infuriating country.

 

All this type of stuff would be interesting to explore further in a DA context. I'm not sure how they'd do it but I'd like to see them try...

[raging_monkey]

Lucky indeed! It's not so bad with my female Inquisitors if I avoid the Enchanter Mail Arms, but my poor male Inquisitor went from being buff shoulders dude to this:

Spoiler

As for the models, I like the DAI ones much, much better than the DA2 ones, though the occasional elf has a weird Voldemort look, as if their nose had been cut off or smashed flat. The Sentinel Elves look great (except for the baldness - maybe it's a monk thing).

I've always thought that the Dalish should be more like how Europeans described their first encounters with Native Americans: tall and handsome, because the diet and lifestyle were so healthy compared to how most Europeans lived at that time. I could see city elves being malnourished and spindly. If one thinks of the Welsh longbowmen, it takes height and tremendous strength to draw a 6' bow.

yeah the EM gear is what breaks the model for me but I'm loving the dai model the best since I'm that skinny and it helps me RP

I always took the dalish to be a mix of various subjugated cultures native Americans, Celts, etc and city elves to be a more modern variant we see today

[Serelir]

I don't think the elves in DA can be shoehorned into being representatives of one real-world group. They clearly have elements taken from many oppressed cultures.

 

My wife's Mexican and the idea of Ameridan as an Andrastean who still honoured his elven heritage really made me think of Mexico.

 

In Mexico you have a prime example of cultural mixing creating a unique identity of its own, but with its own problems. The majority of Mexicans are "Mestizo" ie a mix of pre-hispanic peoples and their Spanish conquerors. Most would identify as Catholic but to differing extents across the country there are parts of pre-hispanic belief systems embedded into their beliefs and customs. 

 

There's a square in Mexico City with a pre-hispanic archeological site and a Catholic church surrounded by modern apartment buildings. It's known as the "Plaza de las Tres Culturas" (the square of the three cultures) as it represents pre-hispanic civilisation, colonialism and modern Mexico in one area. It was also the site of a bloody massacre by police during the 1968 student protests, as well as being badly hit in the 1985 earthquake, so it really does have deep resonance in Mexican history.

 

Despite the trumpeting of modern "mestizo" Mexico, the cultural and political elite tend to be of "purer" European ancestry, and all the adverts seem to feature white people as the ideal, so that legacy of colonialism remains. It's at once a wonderful and an infuriating country.

 

All this type of stuff would be interesting to explore further in a DA context. I'm not sure how they'd do it but I'd like to see them try...

Hey, before I got into the whole genetic genealogy thing, I didn't know that Mexico and other Spanish colonies had attracted Sephardic Jewish people fleeing the Inquisition back in the 1500s. Lots of people are rediscovering this hidden heritage. It reminds me of the city elves especially, who have become followers of Andraste and have only tenuous ties to and bits and pieces of their ancestors' religion. Some people decide to rediscover their heritage by converting, and others consider their identity as a mixture and just go with what they are now while acknowledging where they came from.

 

 

yeah the EM gear is what breaks the model for me but I'm loving the dai model the best since I'm that skinny and it helps me RP 

I always took the dalish to be a mix of various subjugated cultures native Americans, Celts, etc and city elves to be a more modern variant we see today

 

 

The significant men in my life are skinny, too, which is probably why I like elves so much! The Celtic references are what originally drew me to the DA elves, but I agree that they can stand for any oppressed and marginalized culture.

[raging_monkey]

Yup that's why I'm drawn to them in dai just so much to do RP wise

[YourFunnyUncle]

Hey, before I got into the whole genetic genealogy thing, I didn't know that Mexico and other Spanish colonies had attracted Sephardic Jewish people fleeing the Inquisition back in the 1500s. Lots of people are rediscovering this hidden heritage. It reminds me of the city elves especially, who have become followers of Andraste and have only tenuous ties to and bits and pieces of their ancestors' religion. Some people decide to rediscover their heritage by converting, and others consider their identity as a mixture and just go with what they are now while acknowledging where they came from.

That's really interesting because the conquistadors basically imposed Catholicism on the locals. The church in the square I mentioned being right next to an archaeological site is no fluke. They wanted to replace the old religion with Catholicism in the smoothest way possible so they built churches on the existing sites of places of worship. The main cathedral in Mexico City is literally a stone's throw from the ruins of the main Aztec temple of Tenochtitlán, which were only rediscovered when they were building the city's metro system in the 1970s.

 

Given that, it surprises me that Jews would flee there, although I guess there was a lot more space for them to hide than in Europe, and I imagine that they were pretty desperate...

[Serza]

An Elf thread that hasn't gone to hell in the first four pages?

 

Count me in!

 

 

[YourFunnyUncle]

The significant men in my life are skinny, too, which is probably why I like elves so much! The Celtic references are what originally drew me to the DA elves, but I agree that they can stand for any oppressed and marginalized culture.

I'm 1.89m, or 6'2" tall and yet I wear a medium T-shirt. I identify with the elven body shape more than the male human, let alone the Qunari!

[raging_monkey]

I HC my elves average round 5'7 or '8

[Serelir]

@uncle and raging: I made a Qunari, but I just couldn't get used to being so massive.

 

Love this photo from Les Archers du Genevois:

 

 

@Serza - thanks for posting! I saw you hesitating over those decisions with Sera

[raging_monkey]

Same made one after my humi but the size and buffness was odd great role play though

[YourFunnyUncle]

I HC my elves average round 5'7 or '8

Yeah the Elves are definitely shorter than me, but as I have narrow shoulders their body shape seems closer to mine than the Male human. They seem a bit like mini-me!

 

I just can't identify with the Qunari at all...

[raging_monkey]

I can imagine they look like Arnold in the terminator break s immersion for me

[YourFunnyUncle]

This just came up on my giant random Spotify playlist...

 

[Serelir]

I just can't identify with the Qunari at all...

I made my Qunari so I could import a World State with all the decisions that I didn't make in DAO and DA2, just to experience being a completely different character. But I found it incredibly hard to stick with it! I love RP, but I need to find something in the character that I can identify with, or maybe a lot of things. I like the idea of the Qunari though - they're definitely interesting, and the Bull is my bro even if we don't always agree. I don't even like pink!

[raging_monkey]

Pinkquisition?

[YourFunnyUncle]

I made my Qunari so I could import a World State with all the decisions that I didn't make in DAO and DA2, just to experience being a completely different character. But I found it incredibly hard to stick with it! I love RP, but I need to find something in the character that I can identify with, or maybe a lot of things. I like the idea of the Qunari though - they're definitely interesting, and the Bull is my bro even if we don't always agree. I don't even like pink!

Yeah I really like the Qunari in terms of the lore and their place in Thedas. I have no problem with them being in the game in general or indeed as an option for the Inquisitor. It's just that, like you, I find it tough to RP as one.

[Bowie Hawkins]

Inquisitor Whisper Shyrra Lavellan

 

Spoiler

 

Whisper was born on Winter's End 9:19 Dragon, She was a strange, unusually quiet child (her mother used to tell her "You came into the world with barely a whisper, Da Vehnan"). The manifestation of her magical gifts in 7:25 Dragon brought her clan great relief both because it offered them an explanation for why she wasn't like the clan's other children, and because the death of their old Keeper and elevation of his First Deshanna a few weeks prior had left them with only one mage.

 

Whisper was always a curious girl, and greatly enjoyed her infrequent opportunities to meet outsiders be they other clans or other races. She never had many friends growing up, because Deshanna believeved that "a Keeper must be parent, not friend, to her clan." Meeting non-elves allowed her to learn about the wider world, and meeting other clans allowed a lonely girl a chance to make friends (and as she grew older, sometimes more).

 

She especially loved hearing the tales of the Hero of Ferelden that reached her clan. Warden QueLara Surana was an elf, like her, and a mage, like her, and had red hair, like her. She had known that as a Keeper she would be important, but hearing about the Hero's deeds gave her a hope that she might someday be great, although at the time she could not understand how destiny planned to fulfill that hope, or how dear its cost would ultimately be.

 

On her 18th birthday Whisper chose to have Sylaise's vallaslin inscribed on her face because the Hearthkeeper seemed the most appropriate god to choose. When asked why she chose not to receive Sylaise's full makings she answered that outsiders tend to be easier to deal with for those with a face not totally marked, but her second unspoken reason was that she had never been truly sure whether the gods had actually been gods, or if they had merely been powerful heroes, or if they had ever even existed at all. 

 

During her mission to the Conclave she presented the image of a talkative and charming observer. In the days that followed this became less pretense and more her true nature, and she enjoyed flirting with Cassandra, Cullen, and Dorian as an enjoyable and casual game. When Sera flirted back at her, Whisper knew that what she felt was neither a game nor casual.

 

After the original suit of armor that the advisors had given to her was destroyed in the battle against Corypheus and his Red Templars at Haven, Whisper took a certain perverse pleasure in having the smiths at Skyhold create a new suit of armor for her based on what her clansmen and women wore (and that it restricted her movements less than her previous armor was a nice plus). 

 

The meeting with Abelas left Whisper sadly disappointed. She got no definitive answer about the nature of the gods, and the only thing that soothed her bristling under the contempt he subjected her and her companions to was when she entered the Well of Sorrows.

 

After Corypheus' defeat Whisper helped Leliana (the new Divine Victoria) rebuild and reform the Chantry. When she felt that the Chantry and Thedas were stable enough that she no longer had to remain the Inquisitor, she named Josephine as her replacement and stepped down on Winter's End 9:45 Dragon.

[phyreblade74]

I was thinking about the role of the Inquisitor last night and thought they could have pushed it even more than they did. There are lots of conversations about faith and a few about who should lead the Inquisition, but there's very little about what a struggle that leadership role could be for certain players. Maybe it's just too much to encompass within the game, especially when the typical model is the Hero Player. My first character would have had a very difficult time being thrust into the spotlight and facing all these rumors that she's the Chosen One amd just having so many people watching her every move. My second character would have just been angry and grumpy about it, and my third would have laughed. The cardgame scene with Varric helped a lot and was one of my favorites in the whole story.

 

I was so torn on my first playthrough about my Inquisitor's romance with Cullen. I'd been looking forward to it, as I've followed the development of Cullen's character since the mage origin story in DAO. There were some two-sentence conversations about being Dalish and being a mage, and that was it! I kind of put it in the "we all might die very soon anyway" category.

 

As I thought about how my character would deal with the repercussions of marrying a human, I was reminded of some discussions about genetics and cultural identity. If you take Native Americans as a model for the Dalish (and I know that elves are based more closely on Jewish people according to the wiki), there's a lot of debate about whether DNA percentages matter - tribal membership currently isn't based on DNA and probably never will be. So what becomes important is keeping a culture alive, and this situation is similar in many minority language and cultural groups. Because of that, my thinking changed from, "Oh, no! There won't be any more elves!" to the idea that the elf-blooded could become a new cultural group in their own right. It wouldn't be as easy to discriminate against them based solely on their appearance, and if there were enough of them, they could keep Elvhen as a viable language and their customs and pantheon as an alternative to the Chantry, though not without opposition, of course. If you don't like the Native American model, think of Britain: a tiny island where people are very similar genetically, yet you can immediately distinguish a Scot from a Cockney, and each is proud of her identity and history. Of course, we lose the fun things that distinguish elves - the eyes and the ears - but maybe they'd act like recessive genes and pop up occasionally.

 

I felt so much the same about my first playthrough with a female Elf Inquisitor, it's not even funny!  I enjoyed the Cullen romance, mind you.  Truly I did ... I only didn't connect with it, quite as powerfully as I did the Dorian and Solas romances respectively.  Those two stories blew me away!

 

Anyway, my Maik'hel Lavellan struggled against his parents' expectations that he marry an elven woman and have little elven babies.    While he does greatly relate to Dorian's conflict with his family, there was that added element to his own experience, that reproduction was something extraordinarily valuable.  At least to his parents, and maybe to other Dalish.  The social stigma among the Dalish against bonds and relationships with humans is pretty extreme, I tend to think.  For all they can tell, elves are pretty much a dying, disappearing race.  It must create enormous pressure among them, as a social group and identity. 

 

And for a long time, Maik'hel kind of bought into the pressure of that expectation.  But it was pressure and the longer it persisted the harder it was for him to tolerate it.  It was like this weight on his back that he finally just refused to accept anymore.  Even if tossing it aside devastated his parents and pretty much encouraged even greater distance between him and his expected role in Dalish society.  At least in his own emotional experience, I mean.

Spoiler