150 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

About Howe, one thing that I find curious is that everytime I kill him with a dual-wielding Cousland I always get the decapitation finisher.

[Nelyafinwe]

A traitor's end for a dirty betrayer would have been far more satisfying for my Cousland. Howe deserved the most painful of deaths.

[Elhanan]

As said the scorpion: It is in my nature....

[Neuro]

As said the scorpion: It is in my nature....

 

Love that fable. 

[Illegitimus]

Love that fable. 

 

I hate the way it's used to justify villains being idiots.  Nasty though Howe is, he isn't an idiot.  He does pretty well out of his villainy right up until it turns out that the Warden is a unstoppable killing machine.  

[Tragedienne of Heavens]

About Howe, one thing that I find curious is that everytime I kill him with a dual-wielding Cousland I always get the decapitation finisher.

Hey, that happens to me too. Internet high five, dude!

[DeathScepter]

I hate the way it's used to justify villains being idiots.  Nasty though Howe is, he isn't an idiot.  He does pretty well out of his villainy right up until it turns out that the Warden is a unstoppable killing machine.  

 

 

Then again, Grey Wardens are supposed to be badasses as a rule.

[Dai Grepher]

It's too bad I can't take WoT seriously with all of its errors, this story actually sounds okay.

[Aren]

About Howe, one thing that I find curious is that everytime I kill him with a dual-wielding Cousland I always get the decapitation finisher.

impossible,the event is scripted,he is meant to die with a cutscene in which is head is fine.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As said the scorpion: It is in my nature....

I thought the scorpion said "I can swim?"

 

I hate the way it's used to justify villains being idiots.  Nasty though Howe is, he isn't an idiot.  He does pretty well out of his villainy right up until it turns out that the Warden is a unstoppable killing machine.  

He embezzles in a time of war*, keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own home, keeps these prisoners alive long past the point when they should have been killed and then mangled past the point of any identification, attempts to have work done on his estate without paying for it, and (if you accept WoG) murdered the Couslands without anyone's real permission. True, he did well on this until he died, but doing well doesn't make you not an idiot.

 

*Admittedly, this is an unproven accusation by a biased man who may or may not be telling the truth, who wants you to hit a facility and steal some silver and who suspects that telling you Howe is involved with it might motivate you.

[Illegitimus]

I

 

 

He embezzles in a time of war*, keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own home, keeps these prisoners alive long past the point when they should have been killed and then mangled past the point of any identification, attempts to have work done on his estate without paying for it, and (if you accept WoG) murdered the Couslands without anyone's real permission. True, he did well on this until he died, but doing well doesn't make you not an idiot.

 

*Admittedly, this is an unproven accusation by a biased man who may or may not be telling the truth, who wants you to hit a facility and steal some silver and who suspects that telling you Howe is involved with it might motivate you.

 

What the heck is WoG?  

[RoseLawliet]

What the heck is WoG?  

"Word of god", the nickname for what creators say about their works. In this case, probably referencing David Gaider (I think it was?) who said that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe killing the Couslands.

[ThePhoenixKing]

"Word of god", the nickname for what creators say about their works. In this case, probably referencing David Gaider (I think it was?) who said that Loghain had nothing to do with Howe killing the Couslands.

 

Which is one of the reasons I've stopped listening to Word of God; it's usually nonsense that contradicts the lore. Loghain not being involved in the deaths of the Couslands doesn't really make any sense, otherwise, the two men happen to independently engaged in treason at exactly the same time. It's a bit too much of a coincedence, and ignores the fact that it happened to work out well for the both of them; Loghain gained an ally and removed a major threat in the Landsmeet, while Howe was given a legal immunity for his crimes.

 

But getting back on topic, Howe's a total monster for the purge of the Denerim Alienage alone. Felt so satisfying to take that bastard down in response.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Which is one of the reasons I've stopped listening to Word of God; it's usually nonsense that contradicts the lore. Loghain not being involved in the deaths of the Couslands doesn't really make any sense, otherwise, the two men happen to independently engaged in treason at exactly the same time. It's a bit too much of a coincedence, and ignores the fact that it happened to work out well for the both of them; Loghain gained an ally and removed a major threat in the Landsmeet, while Howe was given a legal immunity for his crimes.

Maybe I should point out that according to the Word Of God explanation of Ostagar, Loghain hadn't actually planned out his arguably treasonous action at Ostagar until he was already there. Which means that he and Howe weren't coincidentally planning treason at exactly the same time, which makes the coincidence somewhat less strange. (Or were you talking about the thing at Redcliffe?)

 

At any rate, coincidences happen. A weird enough one is worth looking at, but there's still room for it to be just that.

[Gervaise]

Saying Loghain didn't plan his treason until Ostagar is ridiculous since part of that plan involved poisoning Arl Eamon and that occurred before then.   Jowan was assured by Loghain/Howe/their agents that he would be helping the state in doing so, which would have unravelled pretty quickly if Cailan had survived the battle.    Whilst I do feel Howe has no redeeming excuse for his actions, he does say something interesting at the end to a Cousland Warden to the effect that their father was a traitor and that is why Howe did it.   At the beginning we are told that Bryce has just returned from Orlais.    Cailan had been in negotiations with Celene that involved dumping Anora and becoming Emperor.   Except that Cailan was too stupid to realise this would just involve Ferelden being annexed into the Orlesian Empire by peaceful means.   The thing is someone had to act as his messenger/go between who he could trust and that was unlikely to be a mere commoner.   So Howe's justification to himself and to Loghain could have been that Bryce was involved in some way with dealings in Orlais with the Empress, even if he didn't know the precise details.    Just a thought but is a possibility considering how obsessed Loghain was with Orlais.

[Marika Haliwell]

I think that is the best explanation to be honest. 

[Dai Grepher]

Loghain was plotting Cailan's death since word of the blight reached him. Killing the Couslands was the only way Loghain could seize power after Cailan was dead. Otherwise Bryce, the more powerful Teyrn, would have assumed the role of regent by law. Also, if you talk to the tower guard at Ostagar he tells you that Loghain's men are checking the Tower of Ishal for underground tunnels. This means Loghain knew about the tunnels and the security risk they posed to the tower, yet he chose the tower specifically as the method of alerting his regiment to the signal to flank. He chose it because he knew it would be overrun. He hoped that the beacon would not be lit at all, thus absolving him of culpability.

[Marika Haliwell]

Yes, because if i am not mistaken, Maric said that if the Theirin line ends, the Couslands are next to the throne of ferelden

[Dai Grepher]

I don't remember that, but the codex for Highever does say that the Couslands are second most powerful family in Ferelden, second only to the king. Dairren also confirmed that many people wanted Bryce to be king instead of Cailan.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Loghain was plotting Cailan's death since word of the blight reached him. Killing the Couslands was the only way Loghain could seize power after Cailan was dead. Otherwise Bryce, the more powerful Teyrn, would have assumed the role of regent by law. Also, if you talk to the tower guard at Ostagar he tells you that Loghain's men are checking the Tower of Ishal for underground tunnels. This means Loghain knew about the tunnels and the security risk they posed to the tower, yet he chose the tower specifically as the method of alerting his regiment to the signal to flank. He chose it because he knew it would be overrun. He hoped that that beacon would not be lit at all, thus absolving him of culpability.

That's not the only reason to choose the Tower. It's also (from all I can remember) the best place to light a signal due to being (as far as I know) the most visible part of the ruins. I don't remember seeing anyplace else in Ostagar even close to as good. Yeah, if Loghain was planning treason and knew exactly where the tunnels went he'd choose it for this reason, but I'm not sure you can say it wouldn't be there if he's not planning treason. Not least because I don't know if we know he found out for sure where the tunnels went except by being present during RtO.

 

The Redcliffe WoG (at least as far as Loghain's reasons for setting it in motion) looks like a less credible explanation for the way things play out than you'd get by simply taking everything that happens at its face value: Gaider's explanation for why Loghain would take down Eamon without having already planned to kill Cailan seems like a bit of an insufficient reason to do what Loghain did. If you distrust WoG based on that, I suppose I can't blame you, even if I'm willing to overlook that one plothole. That said, the rest of the WoG (as far as Origins goes) strikes me as (mostly) solid. Which I suppose is why I'm willing to overlook that one plothole.

[RoseLawliet]

The Redcliffe WoG (at least as far as Loghain's reasons for setting it in motion) looks like a less credible explanation for the way things play out than you'd get by simply taking everything that happens at its face value: Gaider's explanation for why Loghain would take down Eamon without having already planned to kill Cailan seems like a bit of an insufficient reason to do what Loghain did. If you distrust WoG based on that, I suppose I can't blame you, even if I'm willing to overlook that one plothole. That said, the rest of the WoG (as far as Origins goes) strikes me as (mostly) solid. Which I suppose is why I'm willing to overlook that one plothole.

What exactly is the WoG concerning Redcliffe? Do you just mean how Loghain apparently didn't want Eamon dead, or is there more to it that I haven't read yet?

[Dai Grepher]

That's not the only reason to choose the Tower. It's also (from all I can remember) the best place to light a signal due to being (as far as I know) the most visible part of the ruins. I don't remember seeing anyplace else in Ostagar even close to as good. Yeah, if Loghain was planning treason and knew exactly where the tunnels went he'd choose it for this reason, but I'm not sure you can say it wouldn't be there if he's not planning treason. Not least because I don't know if we know he found out for sure where the tunnels went except by being present during RtO.

 

The Redcliffe WoG (at least as far as Loghain's reasons for setting it in motion) looks like a less credible explanation for the way things play out than you'd get by simply taking everything that happens at its face value: Gaider's explanation for why Loghain would take down Eamon without having already planned to kill Cailan seems like a bit of an insufficient reason to do what Loghain did. If you distrust WoG based on that, I suppose I can't blame you, even if I'm willing to overlook that one plothole. That said, the rest of the WoG (as far as Origins goes) strikes me as (mostly) solid. Which I suppose is why I'm willing to overlook that one plothole.

 

Well obviously the reason Loghain gave Cailan was that the tower was easy to spot. But he withheld the information that the location itself was not secure. And those were Loghain's men who investigated the lower chambers. So of course Loghain knew. And if he intended on winning the battle, then he would not have used a location that was not secure. As Loghain said, the beacon is vital.

 

Also remember that Uldred was at the war table meeting and he said that the tower was unnecessary. He recommended allowing the mages to... and he was cut off by the revered mother, but I think he was going to say that the mages should send up a signal fire. But also remember that Uldred was in cahoots with Loghain. So I'm betting that Uldred was the primary plan, that he would have the mages set as the ones to send up the signal for Loghain, and then when it came time, Uldred would simply not give word to send up the signal. The tower was the fallback plan in case Cailan disagreed with the mages sending the signal, or if the revered mother objected to the same.

 

I thought Gaider's word on Redcliffe was that Loghain didn't intend for Eamon to die, just fall ill and be unable to send forces to Ostagar, which is obviously still proof that Loghain intended to betray Cailan from the start. He purposely weakened the Ostagar armies so that they would lose.

[Callidus Thorn]

Well obviously the reason Loghain gave Cailan was that the tower was easy to spot. But he withheld the information that the location itself was not secure. And those were Loghain's men who investigated the lower chambers. So of course Loghain knew. And if he intended on winning the battle, then he would not have used a location that was not secure. As Loghain said, the beacon is vital.

 

I've just got to point out the conspicuous lack of motive on Loghain's part, unless you're going with pure ambition(which would be completely out of character). And remember that this is very much a battle that is being forced by Cailan, so that he can have his legendary battle alongside the Grey Wardens to defeat the Blight. We see firsthand that Cailan ignores Loghain telling him that he should not be on the front line, so it's entirely possible Cailan ignored Loghain's concerns over the security of the tower of Ishal.

 

Also remember that Uldred was at the war table meeting and he said that the tower was unnecessary. He recommended allowing the mages to... and he was cut off by the revered mother, but I think he was going to say that the mages should send up a signal fire. But also remember that Uldred was in cahoots with Loghain. So I'm betting that Uldred was the primary plan, that he would have the mages set as the ones to send up the signal for Loghain, and then when it came time, Uldred would simply not give word to send up the signal. The tower was the fallback plan in case Cailan disagreed with the mages sending the signal, or if the revered mother objected to the same.

 

Considering how hard the Chantry comes down on mages in general, and the extreme limit on the number of mages present for the battle, I really don't see any justification for allocating any role in the events at Ostagar to Uldred, not even in the form of an initial plan. The mages would have been watched at all time by Templars so trying to bring them into any treacherous scheme would have been beyond stupid.

 

I thought Gaider's word on Redcliffe was that Loghain didn't intend for Eamon to die, just fall ill and be unable to send forces to Ostagar, which is obviously still proof that Loghain intended to betray Cailan from the start. He purposely weakened the Ostagar armies so that they would lose.

 

How is that proof? Loghain plans to kill Cailan, prevents Eamon from reaching Ostagar with his forces, but not only makes sure that Eamon lives to potentially oppose, but ensures that he has an armed force to support that opposition? That's beyond stupid, especially since you've already accused him of plotting with Howe to remove the Couslands because they would have opposed him.

 

Frankly, Cailan charging out to meet the darkspawn horde at Ostagar makes more sense than your argument.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well obviously the reason Loghain gave Cailan was that the tower was easy to spot. But he withheld the information that the location itself was not secure. And those were Loghain's men who investigated the lower chambers. So of course Loghain knew. And if he intended on winning the battle, then he would not have used a location that was not secure. As Loghain said, the beacon is vital.

 

Also remember that Uldred was at the war table meeting and he said that the tower was unnecessary. He recommended allowing the mages to... and he was cut off by the revered mother, but I think he was going to say that the mages should send up a signal fire. But also remember that Uldred was in cahoots with Loghain. So I'm betting that Uldred was the primary plan, that he would have the mages set as the ones to send up the signal for Loghain, and then when it came time, Uldred would simply not give word to send up the signal. The tower was the fallback plan in case Cailan disagreed with the mages sending the signal, or if the revered mother objected to the same.

 

I thought Gaider's word on Redcliffe was that Loghain didn't intend for Eamon to die, just fall ill and be unable to send forces to Ostagar, which is obviously still proof that Loghain intended to betray Cailan from the start. He purposely weakened the Ostagar armies so that they would lose.

I think you missed the basic objection I have to you using Loghain's use of the Tower as evidence: we agree that Loghain would have wanted to use those systems (Uldred and the Tower) for the beacon if he was planning treason, but I don't believe you've offered any evidence that he wouldn't if he wasn't. The thing is that while the Tower is ideal for this purpose because of the tunnels, it's also ideal because it serves as the high ground from which Loghain can very clearly see it when it's his time to charge. The Tower is the most visible part of the ruins. I'm not sure anyplace else even comes close. Yeah, it's not secure, but since we can't see any other obvious place to send up a signal fire it might well be that Loghain just had to take his chances. Especially since that tunnel also makes just about anyplace else Loghain could use for this a lot less secure. (This dilemma could probably be bypassed by using magic, but that's also a plan which is ideal for either purpose.)

 

WoG also holds that Eamon's poisoning was done in preparation for a Landsmeet after Ostagar in which Loghain was aiming to increase his power at Cailan's expense (go ahead and tell me you can blame him for that), rather than to make Eamon miss the battle, which makes sense when you consider that Eamon was still willing to send soldiers to Ostagar when Duncan last heard word from him. (Also because having troops from Redcliffe at Ostagar doesn't actually require having Eamon there. There were Highever soldiers at Ostagar despite Fergus getting knocked out of the fighting before the battle and Bryce never arriving. The Redcliffe soliders not arriving can't really be tied to Eamon being poisoned, even if we [and Gaider] agree that the poisoning happened before Ostagar.)

[Aren]

 

 

Well, now The World of Thedas Volume 2 gives us the full story.

 

 

world of Thedas Volume 2 is a later addition,and i genuinely believe that the writers has tried to make on purpose Arl Howe even more awful than he already was,but it was unecessary to "ruin" him even more.

I like his character,is actually a man moved by greed,and a great deceiver,don't get me wrong i have a Cousland warden too,but i just appreciate Howe as a character,it add to the DA franchise that spark of atmosphere that DAI lack,i like all the quest related to him and his cutscenes with Loghain.

He is a character that move the player heart,actually it seems to be that everyone were much more satisfied to have killed Howe than any other enemy (Corypheus,the AD,The Mother ecc..) because with him is more personal.