150 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

I think you missed the basic objection I have to you using Loghain's use of the Tower as evidence: we agree that Loghain would have wanted to use those systems (Uldred and the Tower) for the beacon if he was planning treason, but I don't believe you've offered any evidence that he wouldn't if he wasn't. The thing is that while the Tower is ideal for this purpose because of the tunnels, it's also ideal because it serves as the high ground from which Loghain can very clearly see it when it's his time to charge. The Tower is the most visible part of the ruins. I'm not sure anyplace else even comes close. Yeah, it's not secure, but since we can't see any other obvious place to send up a signal fire it might well be that Loghain just had to take his chances. Especially since that tunnel also makes just about anyplace else Loghain could use for this a lot more secure. (This dilemma could probably be bypassed by using magic, but that's also a plan which is ideal for either purpose.)

 

WoG also holds that Eamon's poisoning was done in preparation for a Landsmeet after Ostagar in which Loghain was aiming to increase his power at Cailan's expense (go ahead and tell me you can blame him for that), rather than to make Eamon miss the battle, which makes sense when you consider that Eamon was still willing to send soldiers to Ostagar when Duncan last heard word from him. (Also because having troops from Redcliffe at Ostagar doesn't actually require having Eamon there. There were Highever soldiers at Ostagar despite Fergus getting knocked out of the fighting before the battle and Bryce never arriving. The Redcliffe soliders not arriving can't really be tied to Eamon being poisoned, even if we [and Gaider] agree that the poisoning happened before Ostagar.)

 

So you think he would have used a non-secure location for a vital step? That would be foolish, and Loghain is described as a brilliant military general. Also, he allied with Uldred and made him promises about circle autonomy before Ostagar to get Uldred on his side, which were promises he had no authority to give, neither did he have the power to follow through on those promises. Not until taking over Ferelden. If Loghain had been loyal, he would have placed safeguards so that signal to charge would be seen directly by the charging company. The way he structured it, the signal from Cailan's regiment would have to be seen from the top of the tower, then the beacon lit so that Loghain's regiment could see it. Loghain created a middle-man where none needed to exist. So no, he would not have used the tower because it was insecure firstly, and secondly it was not a sure method. At the very least, Loghain would have sealed the lower tunnels. But he didn't.

 

Take his chances with the king's life? That isn't the mark of a loyal general. If the tower was unsafe and no other location was available, then Loghain should have changed the strategy. But the strategy itself was Loghain's method of getting rid of Cailan and the Wardens.

 

Eamon did not have nearly enough power in a Landsmeet against Loghain, so that was never a threat. The only reason a Landsmeet can be won is because of the Warden's influence, and Loghain plotted to have the Warden and Alistair die at Ostagar as well. Also, even the Warden can lose a Landsmeet. Eamon could not have won without the Warden. Plus, Eamon only turned against Loghain because he heard about what happened from the Warden and Alistair. Had Loghain not poisoned him and the Wardens died, Eamon would have to throw his support behind Loghain because he knew he and his brother's claim was weak in comparison.

 

The poisoning happened before Ostagar and Redcliffe soldiers were withheld by Isolde and Teagan so they could search for Andraste's Ashes. When we arrive in Lothering we meet Ser Donall who confirms that Eamon had fallen ill a few weeks before, that Redcliffe knights been sent to find the ashes.

 

In addition to all this, I submit Loghain's own words from Inquisition if he is the Warden companion. "I betrayed the Warden's once, and it cost me everything. Are you mad enough to think that I'd do it again?" So he did consider his actions betrayal, and that betrayal was planned.

 

https://youtu.be/3gO490qik8k?t=4m55s

 

Also, Howe never would have made such a move against the Couslands unless he knew for certain that he would get away with it. Loghain was always his pardon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So you think he would have used a non-secure location for a vital step? That would be foolish, and Loghain is described as a brilliant military general. *snip*  If Loghain had been loyal, he would have placed safeguards so that signal to charge would be seen directly by the charging company. The way he structured it, the signal from Cailan's regiment would have to be seen from the top of the tower, then the beacon lit so that Loghain's regiment could see it. Loghain created a middle-man where none needed to exist. So no, he would not have used the tower because it was insecure firstly, and secondly it was not a sure method. At the very least, Loghain would have sealed the lower tunnels. But he didn't.

Ostagar is a fairly mountainous and very well forested area. There's no guarantee that whoever's hiding from the darkspawn to signal the Tower (because we can fairly well see that Cailan didn't do it himself) can be seen from Loghain's position, or anywhere but the Tower of Ishal. And there's no guarantee that a second signal (because I think one would be necessary) can be seen if it's anywhere but that Tower. I agree that this plan is not a good one, but I don't think you've demonstrated that it's not the best one barring the use of magic. (Which the Grand Cleric should not have nixed.) Sealing the Lower Tunnels would have been a good idea, but for all we know there could very well have been a barricade or soldiers left there that the darkspawn cleared away; there's not enough evidence for your claim he didn't have some precautions in place.

 

 

Take his chances with the king's life? That isn't the mark of a loyal general. If the tower was unsafe and no other location was available, then Loghain should have changed the strategy. But the strategy itself was Loghain's method of getting rid of Cailan and the Wardens.

Changed it how? You keep saying Loghain should have done something else. What was that something else?

 

As for taking chances with the King's life, it was more Cailan doing that than Loghain. Cailan could have skipped out on the battle, or at least taken Loghain's advice not to be on the front lines. Loghain put some effort into seeing that Cailan wasn't in the battle you say Loghain planned to use to plausibly-deniably kill him. That could plausibly have been reverse-psychology to ensure he was there, if it weren't for the fact that Loghain shows absolutely no sign of the manipulative skills that requires throughout the entire rest of the game and displays an utter lack of them in the Landsmeet where Teagan refuses to bow to him.

 

 

Eamon did not have nearly enough power in a Landsmeet against Loghain, so that was never a threat. The only reason a Landsmeet can be won is because of the Warden's influence, and Loghain plotted to have the Warden and Alistair die at Ostagar as well. Also, even the Warden can lose a Landsmeet. Eamon could not have won without the Warden. Plus, Eamon only turned against Loghain because he heard about what happened from the Warden and Alistair. Had Loghain not poisoned him and the Wardens died, Eamon would have to throw his support behind Loghain because he knew he and his brother's claim was weak in comparison.

That's evidence against you. What you're saying means that Loghain had no reason to fear Eamon without him having some backup, and the Warden wasn't a known quantity at the time Loghain was making his plans. Therefore there's no reason to do this unless the plan is the one given in WoG (ie Cailan lives but is the victim of a non-lethal powergrab.)

 

In addition to all this, I submit Loghain's own words from Inquisition if he is the Warden companion. "I betrayed the Warden's once, and it cost me everything. Are you mad enough to think that I'd do it again?" So he did consider his actions betrayal, and that betrayal was planned.

The first conclusion follows. The second does not.

 

 

Also, Howe never would have made such a move against the Couslands unless he knew for certain that he would get away with it. Loghain was always his pardon.

Considering the frankly idiotic moves of his I mentioned in my first post in this thread (not counting the WoG one that you're disputing,) I find it entirely in character for him.

[Illegitimus]

Maybe I should point out that according to the Word Of God explanation of Ostagar, Loghain hadn't actually planned out his arguably treasonous action at Ostagar until he was already there. Which means that he and Howe weren't coincidentally planning treason at exactly the same time, which makes the coincidence somewhat less strange. (Or were you talking about the thing at Redcliffe?)

 

At any rate, coincidences happen. A weird enough one is worth looking at, but there's still room for it to be just that.

 

Well Howe and Loghain were definitely planning treason before Ostagar.  The question is "What kind of treason"?

 

How is this for a model of what happened:

 

Loghain is increasingly concerned about the growing detente between Ferelden and Orlais.  He's afraid that what he won in wartime will be given away in the peace.  He sees Cousland's trip to Orlais, Eamon's Orlesian wife, Eamon's pressure on Caillan to get a new and hopefully more fertile wife, Cailan's negotiations with Orlais (which include at least the possibility of a marital alliance), the Orlesian-dominated Gray Wardens claiming a new Blight which creates pressure to invite Orlesian troops in and it all gels in his mind into a idee fixe that it's all an Orlesian plot to take over over Ferelden again.  He hasn't seen a Archdemon, and he suspects that if anyone would know how to bait darkspawn to the surface it's the secretive Gray Wardens, who, after all, were complicit in a coup attempt back when.  

 

His original plan is not to kill Cailan but rather to shift power away from him at a landsmeet.  In order to to do that, he has to remove the most powerful lords who might be inclined to oppose such a move out of loyalty to Cailan and/or Orlesian or anti-Anora sympathies.  It's icing on the cake that these are also the lords who would be most likely to get handed the crown if it was taken away from Cailan anyway.  Loghain hopes that with them out of play, and his hero status having been bolstered by the leadership he showed in defeating the pseudo-blight, he and his daughter would be able to take control.  So he has Howe eliminate Cousland and trades Cousland's lands for that, and for Howe's future backing, while he personally recruits an assassin to take out Eamon.  

 

However, during strategy meeting not only does Cailan infuriate him with another threat to call in the Orlesians, but he realizes that Cailan's posturing will work in his favour if they actually win at Ostagar.  Cailan and the Wardens will end up looking like heroes and Loghain's legislative coup will likely fall flat.  So when he sees the opportunity to assure defeat and a vacancy on the throne...well he goes for it.  

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well Howe and Loghain were definitely planning treason before Ostagar.  The question is "What kind of treason"?

 

How is this for a model of what happened:

 

Loghain is increasingly concerned about the growing detente between Ferelden and Orlais.  He's afraid that what he won in wartime will be given away in the peace.  He sees Cousland's trip to Orlais, Eamon's Orlesian wife, Eamon's pressure on Caillan to get a new and hopefully more fertile wife, Cailan's negotiations with Orlais (which include at least the possibility of a marital alliance), the Orlesian-dominated Gray Wardens claiming a new Blight which creates pressure to invite Orlesian troops in and it all gels in his mind into a idee fixe that it's all an Orlesian plot to take over over Ferelden again.  He hasn't seen a Archdemon, and he suspects that if anyone would know how to bait darkspawn to the surface it's the secretive Gray Wardens, who, after all, were complicit in a coup attempt back when.  

 

His original plan is not to kill Cailan but rather to shift power away from him at a landsmeet.  In order to to do that, he has to remove the most powerful lords who might be inclined to oppose such a move out of loyalty to Cailan and/or Orlesian or anti-Anora sympathies.  It's icing on the cake that these are also the lords who would be most likely to get handed the crown if it was taken away from Cailan anyway.  Loghain hopes that with them out of play, and his hero status having been bolstered by the leadership he showed in defeating the pseudo-blight, he and his daughter would be able to take control.  So he has Howe eliminate Cousland and trades Cousland's lands for that, and for Howe's future backing, while he personally recruits an assassin to take out Eamon.  

 

However, during strategy meeting not only does Cailan infuriate him with another threat to call in the Orlesians, but he realizes that Cailan's posturing will work in his favour if they actually win at Ostagar.  Cailan and the Wardens will end up looking like heroes and Loghain's legislative coup will likely fall flat.  So when he sees the opportunity to assure defeat and a vacancy on the throne...well he goes for it.  

On the whole it's a decent one. However, it ignores the evidence that Loghain wanted Eamon to survive. (That being WoG, which I can understand you being skeptical of; the demon taking credit for Eamon being out cold; and the fact that Eamon doesn't die immediately when the demon is killed or scared off.) That, and his visible reluctance to use Zevran, is evidence that he prefers not to leave a pile of corpses in his wake. If he had a plan to use Howe against Cousland, which is plausible, it would be unlikely to look like that.

[Illegitimus]

On the whole it's a decent one. However, it ignores the evidence that Loghain wanted Eamon to survive. (That being WoG, which I can understand you being skeptical of; the demon taking credit for Eamon being out cold; and the fact that Eamon doesn't die immediately when the demon is killed or scared off.) That, and his visible reluctance to use Zevran, is evidence that he prefers not to leave a pile of corpses in his wake. If he had a plan to use Howe against Cousland, which is plausible, it would be unlikely to look like that.

 

Well I can't really believe that it would be practical to keep Eamon alive.  It's really, really difficult to poison people into a coma without killing them, and even if you do the coma itself would kill them from dehydration or starvation, barring supernatural intervention that Loghain hasn't arranged.  Eamon's situation has to be so dire that people are saying that he's going to die in earshot of Connor so that Connor will be vulnerable to the demon.  The fact that it literally requires a miracle to revive Eamon does not suggest to me that Loghain was messing around with that poison.  

 

As for his reluctance to use Zevran, there are a couple of considerations there.  While he's in no hurry to admit out loud that he could be wrong about the Blight those are the only two Wardens left in the country.  He'd probably prefer to capture them...just in case...as his initial orders were before he learns that the Wardens are beginning to gather an army.  Then there's the other thing, which is that the only way Zevran could possibly rub a man like Loghain more the wrong way is by speaking with an Orlesian accent.  Zevran is foreign, playful, a bit of a dandy, a killer for pay and not patriotism and has a combat style that specialises in backstabbing with dual daggers.  He could not possibly be less like Loghain, a humorless xenophobic patriot and a sword and board Champion.  

 

That being said, while I can't believe that Loghain did not conspire with Howe, I can easily believe that Howe exceeded the original parameters of their arrangement and killed far more people than Loghain wanted.  It would have been better for Loghain's purposes for Howe to just kill Cousland once Cousland was isolated from his troops and marching south with Howe.  He could arrange for Fergus to have an unfortunate combat death and marry off the next heir to Howe's daughter.  But that wouldn't work so well for Howe who is much better off if there are no surviving claimants to the Cousland name, particularly if he gets the impression that the warden-candidate has no interest in marrying Howe's little girl.  We don't know exactly what passed between Loghain and Howe, but Howe could have spun him a story about how he had to change the plan because...reasons.  Blame the Orlesians or something.  So yeah, one of Loghain's problems is picking a murderous sadist as a co-conspirator.  You could say that one of his big problems was a lack of no Howe.  

[Kynare]

My Warden bathed in his blood. s'all good

[Elhanan]

Have mentioned this story before, but am still quite satisfied with my own conclusion with Howe.

My male Cousland Warrior was based with a Noble sense of honor, and refused to accept the aid of those like the ones that slaughtered his family (ie; no Sten or Zevran). He also carried the family sword and shield with him during the tale, and when it came time to battle Howe, these were the weapons of choice.

At the end of the confrontation, a glitch interrupted combat to allow Howe to utter his famous last words, "I. Deserved, More.", and then combat resumed, and my Warden hit him again, and with me thinking, "I agree"!

[Yaroub]

Have mentioned this story before, but am still quite satisfied with my own conclusion with Howe.

My male Cousland Warrior was based with a Noble sense of honor, and refused to accept the aid of those like the ones that slaughtered his family (ie; no Sten or Zevran). He also carried the family sword and shield with him during the tale, and when it came time to battle Howe, these were the weapons of choice.

At the end of the confrontation, a glitch interrupted combat to allow Howe to utter his famous last words, "I. Deserved, More.", and then combat resumed, and my Warden hit him again, and with me thinking, "I agree"!

 

Oh man, i love this, shame it didn't happen with me, i usually reload a previous save and kill him again, on my first playthrough i killed him around 12 times till i was satisfied.

 

[Elhanan]

Tim Curry sure sells it very well for Howe.

[MisterJB]

 

Option 4,man...

[andy6915]

 

Option 4,man...

 

How the...? Duncan takes your dog out of the party while you're in Ostagar, you can't get this dialogue.

[MisterJB]

 

Don't take the flower while in the Wilds, then do the Joining.

Dog is returned to you. Rather than head imediatelly to the meeting with the King, make him wait and go talk to the kennel master. Since you don't have the flower, he can't purchase it from you and you have this dialogue instead.

[Dai Grepher]

Sorry, I forgot this thread existed. Feel free to discontinue this old discussion if you wish.

 

Ostagar is a fairly mountainous and very well forested area. There's no guarantee that whoever's hiding from the darkspawn to signal the Tower (because we can fairly well see that Cailan didn't do it himself) can be seen from Loghain's position, or anywhere but the Tower of Ishal. And there's no guarantee that a second signal (because I think one would be necessary) can be seen if it's anywhere but that Tower. I agree that this plan is not a good one, but I don't think you've demonstrated that it's not the best one barring the use of magic. (Which the Grand Cleric should not have nixed.) Sealing the Lower Tunnels would have been a good idea, but for all we know there could very well have been a barricade or soldiers left there that the darkspawn cleared away; there's not enough evidence for your claim he didn't have some precautions in place.

 

 

Changed it how? You keep saying Loghain should have done something else. What was that something else?

 

As for taking chances with the King's life, it was more Cailan doing that than Loghain. Cailan could have skipped out on the battle, or at least taken Loghain's advice not to be on the front lines. Loghain put some effort into seeing that Cailan wasn't in the battle you say Loghain planned to use to plausibly-deniably kill him. That could plausibly have been reverse-psychology to ensure he was there, if it weren't for the fact that Loghain shows absolutely no sign of the manipulative skills that requires throughout the entire rest of the game and displays an utter lack of them in the Landsmeet where Teagan refuses to bow to him.

 

 

That's evidence against you. What you're saying means that Loghain had no reason to fear Eamon without him having some backup, and the Warden wasn't a known quantity at the time Loghain was making his plans. Therefore there's no reason to do this unless the plan is the one given in WoG (ie Cailan lives but is the victim of a non-lethal powergrab.)

 

The first conclusion follows. The second does not.

 

 

Considering the frankly idiotic moves of his I mentioned in my first post in this thread (not counting the WoG one that you're disputing,) I find it entirely in character for him.

 

Well, Cailan was busy fighting for his life. So it would have been someone in his company would who actually give the signal. Even with Ishal, there was probably a lookout on the cliff overlooking the battle field, and the lookout in Ishal was probably ordered to watch for the cliff signal, and that lookout was to watch the battlefield signal. I doubt Ishal was told to watch the battlefield from that distance.

 

I think a better view would have been from the rear of Ostagar looking outward. This position is also well away from the approaching horde. The place I'm referring to is near where the Joining takes place. This lookout would then send a signal to one near where the war meeting takes place. Then to outside the King's camp where we met Ser Jory, then past the King's camp where Loghain's forces were. All these spots were outside the battle and were safe.

 

The Tower of Ishal was not even sealed at all. The Darkspawn got in immediately, and even made it up to the top floor in no time. They even had the opportunity to decorate Ishal in their own "art".

 

Loghain may have had something else planned for Cailan had he stayed out of the battle. Or he may have thought he would be able to deceive him afterward into forgetting about the (now dead) Wardens and focus on utilizing Ferelden forces only. But mostly Loghain saw Cailan as a child wanting to play at war.

 

It's evidence against me because a Teyrn can beat a mere Arl in a Landsmeet? No. Loghain needed Eamon out of the way because he couldn't have anyone raising other banns against him in a civil war. Eamon would have done that, just as Teagan managed to do. Loghain merely failed to properly deal with Teagan, although him staying near his ill brother should have been enough to preoccupy him at least. Loghain never even planned on a Landsmeet. He expected to have all the banns fall in line behind him, and for that he had to eliminate as many dissenters as possible. Specifically, those who were allies of Cailan and the Couslands. We see this in Return to Ostagar (regarding how the quest is obtained) as well as Awakening.

 

All I was proving there was that Loghain did consider his actions betrayal. Previously supplied evidence proves it was planned.

 

"In character" for Howe is to act like a friend until he can get away with something. Sticking his neck out is nothing like him. He knew full well that Cailan would not have spared him unless Loghain could deceive Cailan or kill him, and I think killing Cailan was always part of Loghain's plan. He didn't respect him, and he suspected him of cavorting with Orlais.

 

Also, to your other post, the Desire Demon removed the poison from Eamon so that he would survive. But she kept his spirit stuck in her Fade domain so that he would remain unconscious. This all goes back to the deal Connor made with the Desire Demon. She spared Eamon's life by removing the poison, but she kept him unconscious because his wellbeing was never part of the deal. She only agreed to save his life, and she did. After that, she had control over Connor, and keeping Eamon under was in her best interest because it prevented him from meddling and it kept Connor cooperative.

[GoldenGail3]

My Queen Cousland in the distance.

"I knew killing Loghian was the right choice!" The Warrior shouts. She didn't know if Loghian was involved in her parents death, but now she knew. But Howe was worse (no, not Nathienal Howe, he's my favorite!) so she killed both. Unsettling, as she did in right in front of Anora, she wondered how truly ruthless she could be.

[Monica21]

Well obviously the reason Loghain gave Cailan was that the tower was easy to spot. But he withheld the information that the location itself was not secure.

The soldier you can talk to who's guarding the Tower says that the tunnels are being investigated. The fact that Loghain doesn't tell you that they found tunnels could mean that he knew you'd talked to the guard or that he thought that the tunnels were sealed, or pretty much anything that doesn't reduce him to mustache-twirling. And the giant hole you see in that room on the first floor is from the ogre bursting through, so the tower actually was sealed. Until, you know, the ogre.

But if you want to get really technical, no place is secure because darkspawn are literally popping up out of the ground.

[Dai Grepher]

The soldier you can talk to who's guarding the Tower says that the tunnels are being investigated. The fact that Loghain doesn't tell you that they found tunnels could mean that he knew you'd talked to the guard or that he thought that the tunnels were sealed, or pretty much anything that doesn't reduce him to mustache-twirling. And the giant hole you see in that room on the first floor is from the ogre bursting through, so the tower actually was sealed. Until, you know, the ogre.

But if you want to get really technical, no place is secure because darkspawn are literally popping up out of the ground.

 

He couldn't have known that I talked to the guard. He was on the other side of the camp when I talked to him. And if I didn't talk to him, Loghain's withholding of information is the same.

 

That hole existed before the ogre. That is how Loghain knew about the lower chambers. Even if they "sealed" it, the appearance of the inside of the tower shows that the darkspawn had overran it instantly, and even had time to "decorate". So I doubt the hole was sealed at all. The darkspawn got in too quickly and thoroughly.

[Monica21]

He couldn't have known that I talked to the guard. He was on the other side of the camp when I talked to him. And if I didn't talk to him, Loghain's withholding of information is the same.

That hole existed before the ogre. That is how Loghain knew about the lower chambers. Even if they "sealed" it, the appearance of the inside of the tower shows that the darkspawn had overran it instantly, and even had time to "decorate". So I doubt the hole was sealed at all. The darkspawn got in too quickly and thoroughly.

It did not it exist before the ogre. WoG. And don't forget that there is an exterior exit to the valley from the tunnels which is probably what they were investigating.

[Dai Grepher]

A fair point about the outer entrance, but Gaider's word is worthless compared to the canon. Now as for the outer entrance, if that's all it was then why did the tower guard refer to the tower itself having lower chambers? Why was it off limits if there was no hole connecting the tunnels with the tower? And if the tunnels were being investigated, then why weren't all the tunnels sealed off? And finally, if tunnels connected to a place under the tower, then why did Loghain still use the tower for such a vital role as signaling the charge?

[Monica21]

A fair point about the outer entrance, but Gaider's word is worthless compared to the canon. Now as for the outer entrance, if that's all it was then why did the tower guard refer to the tower itself having lower chambers? Why was it off limits if there was no hole connecting the tunnels with the tower? And if the tunnels were being investigated, then why weren't all the tunnels sealed off? And finally, if tunnels connected to a place under the tower, then why did Loghain still use the tower for such a vital role as signaling the charge?

First, there is no canon to prove your point.

The tower guard likely referred to the lower chambers because the chambers were under the Tower.

Off limits because they were exploring the tunnels to see where they went.

Sealed off from the valley? They likely broke through. I believe there's also a hole in the tunnels.

The tunnels do not connect to the Tower. Loghain left forces there. You see many if them fighting and dying so you can get to the tower.

When did "Why is the tower so vital" become a valid question? It's a high point. Loghain can't see the field of battle, thus he needs a signal that's above the treeline. Have you looked at the Terrain on which the battle takes place?

[Dai Grepher]

The canon shows that the tower was completely overrun as the battle began. Therefore the darkspawn must have had easy access to the tower through the already open hole that Loghain did not barricade at all. This isn't difficult to conclude. Loghain would have rather the signal not be lit at all, thus giving him an excuse as to why he didn't charge. He had motive to leave the tower unsecured. The men fighting outside were kept OUTSIDE. They had no idea the darkspawn were flooding in from underground.

 

But how did they know the chambers were under the tower if there was no hole connecting them? Again, if the two don't connect, then why make the tower off limits? I dare say it's likely that Loghain had his men create the hole.

 

Ya know what isn't in the tunnels? A barricade, or even evidence of one. Nothing was sealed off, and if it had been, the darkspawn would not have taken the tower so quickly.

 

The lookout could have been stationed anywhere on the bridge or near where the troops are training. The tower is unnecessary, as Uldred points out.

[Monica21]

The canon shows that the tower was completely overrun as the battle began. Therefore the darkspawn must have had easy access to the tower through the already open hole that Loghain did not barricade at all. This isn't difficult to conclude. Loghain would have rather the signal not be lit at all, thus giving him an excuse as to why he didn't charge. He had motive to leave the tower unsecured. The men fighting outside were kept OUTSIDE. They had no idea the darkspawn were flooding in from underground.[

There are also, seriously, darkspawn actually popping out of the ground. There's no reason to believe that they all came pouring out of the tower.
 

But how did they know the chambers were under the tower if there was no hole connecting them?

Because they are under the tower. Go play RtO, exit the tunnels, and look up. That's what "under" means.
 

Again, if the two don't connect, then why make the tower off limits?

To see if they do connect.
 

I dare say it's likely that Loghain had his men create the hole.

No. Just no. Play RtO. That's literally the most absurd conspiracy theory I've read about Loghain.
 

Ya know what isn't in the tunnels? A barricade, or even evidence of one. Nothing was sealed off, and if it had been, the darkspawn would not have taken the tower so quickly.

Because they're not connected to the tower. It's also entirely possible that the ogre tore any barricade to shreds when entering.
 

The lookout could have been stationed anywhere on the bridge or near where the troops are training. The tower is unnecessary, as Uldred points out.

Also no, because, as previously stated by yours truly, Loghain's field of the battle was obscured. He needed a high point. Uldred points it out because he's a mage and can shoot a signal from anywhere. The Chantry priestess is the one who doesn't want Uldred blasting magic around (because she's an idiot), and Cailan is the one who insists on the Wardens lighting the signal fire. And yet this is somehow Loghain's fault..... ??????

It seems that you've spent so much time hating Loghain that you haven't thought through whether your ideas actually make sense. He did enough wrong in-game. You don't have to make up new things.

[Vanalia]

@Dai Grepher: Next time you will tell us that Loghain is the one who summoned the archdemon... now I imagine Loghain digging holes in the tower and have a tea party with ogres. Thanks for the laugh, Dai Grepher  (the scary thing is that you actually believe it)

[sylvanaerie]

Have mentioned this story before, but am still quite satisfied with my own conclusion with Howe.

My male Cousland Warrior was based with a Noble sense of honor, and refused to accept the aid of those like the ones that slaughtered his family (ie; no Sten or Zevran). He also carried the family sword and shield with him during the tale, and when it came time to battle Howe, these were the weapons of choice.

At the end of the confrontation, a glitch interrupted combat to allow Howe to utter his famous last words, "I. Deserved, More.", and then combat resumed, and my Warden hit him again, and with me thinking, "I agree"!

 

I got that glitch once and the same words rattled through my head as I cut him down a second time.  ahhhh good times   My only regret is you don't have the option to stomp on his corpse and defile it afterward.

[Vanalia]

I got that glitch once and the same words rattled through my head as I cut him down a second time.  ahhhh good times   My only regret is you don't have the option to stomp on his corpse and defile it afterward.

 

You can have the pleasure to kill Howe a second time as a darkwpawn in "the Darkspawn chronicles". You can also have to pleasure to kill all your companions, it was funny to make a archdemon win.

It's also the only way for Loghain fans to kill Alistair for killing Loghain (you see Howe and Cauthrien in that spin-off but no Loghain, it's strange, why would Howe be alive?). Actually I think that it's even the archdemon who is chewing Alistair and then spits him out, that was really gore