150 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

You can have the pleasure to kill Howe a second time as a darkwpawn in "the Darkspawn chronicles". You can also have to pleasure to kill all your companions, it was funny to make a archdemon win.

It's also the only way for Loghain fans to kill Alistair for killing Loghain (you see Howe and Cauthrien in that spin-off but no Loghain, it's strange, why would Howe be alive?). Actually I think that it's even the archdemon who is chewing Alistair and then spits him out, that was really gore 

Loghain is dead because he would have died at the Landsmeet.  Alistair was in charge, remember, not the PC warden.  Darkspawn Chronicles is the only DLC for Origins I didn't get.  I'm not into hack and slash, and combat in Origins sucked anyway.  I didn't need it to kill Howe more than once, I reloaded that fight at least a dozen times on my first Cousland run that reached that point.

 

I don't like killing my companions, or Teagan, who's my favorite NPC in the game.  The Roland run where I killed Zev...that was one of the most painful scenes aside from killing Dog I've ever seen.  No, I didn't kill Dog on purpose.  My original computer was horrible, could barely play Origins and the mouse jerked when I went to select to muzzle him on my mage, I accidentally used the murder knife.  I was so upset I had to get up and walk away from the PC for a few minutes.   

[Vanalia]

Haha, it reminds me when I almost clicked on the "break up" option with Cullen, I was like O___O poor Cullen, even if it's just a virtual character, I can't have the heart to break up with him, even just to try. It's even painful to look at the break-up scenes on youtube, so I know I wouldn't be able to kill Dog either.

 

I guess I could kill Zev if he betrays me, but it never happened.

 

The Darkspawn chronicles were not very funny to play because it's repetitive, but it was interesting to be able to kill plenty of characters who usually survive, and "possess" the body of many kind of darkspawns.

 

And for Teagan... his fans must have been quite dissapointed with DA:I Trespasser. He's so ugly and rude in this DLC, I almost didn't recognized him.

[sylvanaerie]

Haha, it reminds me when I almost clicked on the "break up" option with Cullen, I was like O___O poor Cullen, even if it's just a virtual character, I can't have the heart to break up with him, even just to try. It's even painful to look at the break-up scenes on youtube, so I know I wouldn't be able to kill Dog either.

 

I guess I could kill Zev if he betrays me, but it never happened.

 

The Darkspawn chronicles were not very funny to play because it's repetitive, but it was interesting to be able to kill plenty of characters who usually survive, and "possess" the body of many kind of darkspawns.

 

And for Teagan... his fans must have been quite dissapointed with DA:I Trespasser. He's so ugly and rude in this DLC, I almost didn't recognized him.

 

OMG I was SO P*SSED when I saw him.  He looks like Rendon HOWE!  Someone in one of the other threads joked that he was 'Frostbitten', and that's what I've been calling it.  I haven't done the DLC yet, though my completionist run is reaching its end.  I'll be able to see how much of his personality made it through, but the snippet of dialogue I saw on the trailer isn't encouraging.

 

And OMG don't kill Dog.  It's awful.  I cried and cried so much!  Getting all teary thinking about it and that was several years ago...and he's a virtual character!

[Vanalia]

Hmm in fact, as much Loghain became friendly/smiling/helping in DA:I compared ot DA:O, as much Teagan made the total opposite evolution. And he didn't age well. I feel sad for his fans.

 

But it's realistic, all characters cannot always become better with time. We can understand how spending years thinking about his mistakes could make Loghain more humble, less arrogant, and how years of power could make Teagan less friendly, and more... well. You'll see.

[diaspora2k5]

Because he was a power hungry snake whispering in the ear of and corrupting or hero Loghain Mac Tir.

 

LOGHAIN DID NOTHING WRONG, PEOPLE. IT WAS ALL HOWE'S DOING.

Loghain is monstrously stupid in DAO. Even he admits he seriously goofed if you recruit him.

[Vanalia]

Loghain is monstrously stupid in DAO. Even he admits he seriously goofed if you recruit him.

What a wonderful argument, your comment will really help the debate, thanks 

[sylvanaerie]

Hmm in fact, as much Loghain became friendly/smiling/helping in DA:I compared ot DA:O, as much Teagan made the total opposite evolution. And he didn't age well. I feel sad for his fans.

 

But it's realistic, all characters cannot always become better with time. We can understand how spending years thinking about his mistakes could make Loghain more humble, less arrogant, and how years of power could make Teagan less friendly, and more... well. You'll see.

 

Politics ruined Teagan, I just know it....He hates politics and Eamon tossed him into the role.  Damn Eamon, one more thing to make me wish there was an option to kill him at the end of Origins.  

Was pretty satisfying on one of my runs to see the archdemon pick him up and shake him like a dog before tossing him away.  Saw his health bar drop to nil and he was a 'corpse' but apparently he 'recovered' and was in the coronation room afterward, without a scratch.

[Dai Grepher]

There are also, seriously, darkspawn actually popping out of the ground. There's no reason to believe that they all came pouring out of the tower.
 
Because they are under the tower. Go play RtO, exit the tunnels, and look up. That's what "under" means.
 
To see if they do connect.
 
No. Just no. Play RtO. That's literally the most absurd conspiracy theory I've read about Loghain.
 
Because they're not connected to the tower. It's also entirely possible that the ogre tore any barricade to shreds when entering.
 
Also no, because, as previously stated by yours truly, Loghain's field of the battle was obscured. He needed a high point. Uldred points it out because he's a mage and can shoot a signal from anywhere. The Chantry priestess is the one who doesn't want Uldred blasting magic around (because she's an idiot), and Cailan is the one who insists on the Wardens lighting the signal fire. And yet this is somehow Loghain's fault..... ??????

It seems that you've spent so much time hating Loghain that you haven't thought through whether your ideas actually make sense. He did enough wrong in-game. You don't have to make up new things.

 

https://youtu.be/Svb7xgYkBd8?t=23m54s

 

The guard confirms they came from the tower's lower chambers, not just from "underground". There were no holes in the ground you walk on to get to the tower. They all came from the tower, and as I wrote, the tower is completely overrun, which means they had easy access. The darkspawn in the tower were ahead of the rest of the hoard. Alistair confirms this. Loghain must have purposely left the lower chambers open.

 

But under doesn't mean part of. The Tower Guard states they are the tower's lower chambers. If there was no hole in the tower, then they would be exploring caves near the battlefield, not the tower's lower chambers.

 

But you're claiming there was no hole until the ogre came through. So how could there be lower chambers to the tower if there was no hole? And why would the tower be off limits if they were just investigating a cave near the battlefield? Your theory makes no sense.

 

I don't write that as a matter of fact, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were true. More likely the Tower Guard simply didn't notice that hole because he didn't go into that room, but what is certain is that Loghain knew about the tunnel leading to the tower and intentionally left it open so the tower would be overrun and the beacon would not be lit.

 

But there would be some debris from the barricade. And which is it, the tunnel wasn't connected or was there a barricade? Because why barricade a tunnel that doesn't connect to the tower? As stated above, Alistair confirms that the darkspawn that took the tower were well ahead of the horde, almost as if they knew the plan.

 

It wasn't obscured from the locations I mentioned. He could have picked any of those locations for the signal, but he picked the unsecured tower so that the beacon would not be lit. He does not support Uldred's suggestion because he knows the tower will not be lit anyway. So there's no reason to put Uldred's reputation at stake. It's Loghain's fault for picking the tower and leaving it unsecure so that the signal would not be lit.

 

Loghain planned to have the battle at Ostagar lost even before it began. It was always his intention to kill Cailan off so that he could claim the regency. His plans started before Ostagar. He plotted with Howe to get rid of the Couslands. He plotted with Uldred to ally the circle to his cause. He plotted with Jowan to poison Eamon. This all happened before Ostagar. So of course the Tower of Ishal was a ruse to cover his own retreat.

[Vanalia]

It just doesn't make any sense: Loghain friend with the darkspawn, making holes in the tower? come on, that's ridiculous.

 

Can't you just leave him be? there are already so many official things to blame him for, so please, no need to add paranoiac unbelievable theories coming from your own suspicions, you have no proof of anything, you just would like Loghain to be responsible for every bad thing happening in the universe, and it's starting to be tiring.

[Aren]

If Loghain had been loyal, he would have placed safeguards so that signal to charge would be seen directly by the charging company. The way he structured it, the signal from Cailan's regiment would have to be seen from the top of the tower, then the beacon lit so that Loghain's regiment could see it. Loghain created a middle-man where none needed to exist. So no, he would not have used the tower because it was insecure firstly, and secondly it was not a sure method. At the very least, Loghain would have sealed the lower tunnels. But he didn't.

 

Take his chances with the king's life? That isn't the mark of a loyal general. If the tower was unsafe and no other location was available, then Loghain should have changed the strategy. But the strategy itself was Loghain's method of getting rid of Cailan and the Wardens.

 

 

I genuinely believe that Loghain didn't premeditated Cailan death, since he asked to him to remain with him instead to go with Duncan.

Everything that you said is more to take into the account that bioware's writers little know about strategies,the whole beacon thing was contrived as idea from the writers part,it wasn't a brilliant and premeditated plan used by Loghain to get rid of the king,he could have easly hired some assasin if he wanted Cailan dead

[Vanalia]

Yes I just think Bioware's team didn't think about strategy at all, they just wanted to give some solo mission to the wardens, and needed and excuse for it.

[Dai Grepher]

It just doesn't make any sense: Loghain friend with the darkspawn, making holes in the tower? come on, that's ridiculous.

 

Can't you just leave him be? there are already so many official things to blame him for, so please, no need to add paranoiac unbelievable theories coming from your own suspicions, you have no proof of anything, you just would like Loghain to be responsible for every bad thing happening in the universe, and it's starting to be tiring.

 

I don't believe he had the hole dug, but I think it was there and he did nothing about it.

 

He should be held accountable for everything he did.

[Dai Grepher]

 

I genuinely believe that Loghain didn't premeditated Cailan death, since he asked to him to remain with him instead to go with Duncan.

Everything that you said is more to take into the account that bioware's writers little know about strategies,the whole beacon thing was contrived as idea from the writers part,it wasn't a brilliant and premeditated plan used by Loghain to get rid of the king,he could have easly hired some assasin if he wanted Cailan dead

 

 

He asked him knowing that it was futile and that Cailan would do the opposite of what he said. Plus, he may have had something else in store for Cailan had he chosen to stay out of the battle.

 

No, the story makes it clear that the tower was part of a plot to throw the battle on purpose to get rid of the Orlesian Wardens.
 

[Callidus Thorn]

You're still on this?

 

Don't those chambers beneath the Tower look similar to the rest of Ostagar(been a long time since I played RtO)? So they find chambers beneath the Tower, part of the whole fortress, not the Tower itself, and refer to them as lower chambers of the Tower due to their location.

 

But, I don't even know why I bothered typing that. Clearly your intense dislike, perhaps even hatred, of Loghain has led you to such a narrow-minded and subjective interpretation of events at Ostagar that it is clearly pointless trying to convince you otherwise.

[Elhanan]

I don't believe he had the hole dug, but I think it was there and he did nothing about it.
 
He should be held accountable for everything he did.

As well as everything he failed to do.

[Vanalia]

As well as everything he failed to do.

 

As well as the death of the dinosaurs. And global warming. Oh, and the Great Plague of 1347.

[Elhanan]

As well as the death of the dinosaurs. And global warming. Oh, and the Great Plague of 1347.

Not required; the extant crimes and omissions are enough. While I recommend saving Loghain at least once for a deeper insight into the villain, that is what he remains.

[KaiserShep]

I don't believe he had the hole dug, but I think it was there and he did nothing about it.

 

He should be held accountable for everything he did.

 

That would basically leave us with the options that he's either grossly negligent or pants-on-head stupid.

[sylvanaerie]

As well as the death of the dinosaurs. And global warming. Oh, and the Great Plague of 1347.

 

And the sinking of the Titanic!   How could you forget that? They told the world it was an iceberg, but that wasn't the truth!  Loghain did it because Howe wanted a cruise ship for those peak holiday days.  It just went horribly awry when the darkspawn he had teamed up with tore up the hull more than intended and the 'unsinkable' ship actually took so much damage it sank.  He was also responsible for the inadequate number of life boats because 'it marred the appearance of the decks to have so many boats aboard'.  I heard he was quoted as saying 'Attend to reality, they won't be necessary.'

[Dai Grepher]

As well as the death of the dinosaurs. And global warming. Oh, and the Great Plague of 1347.

 

No, I blame Obama for those. But I think it's irrational of you to dismiss Loghain's involvement with the forfeited battle of Ostagar and the murder of most of the Couslands when there is clear evidence proving he had a hand in all of it.
 

[Illegitimus]

He asked him knowing that it was futile and that Cailan would do the opposite of what he said. Plus, he may have had something else in store for Cailan had he chosen to stay out of the battle.

 

No, the story makes it clear that the tower was part of a plot to throw the battle on purpose to get rid of the Orlesian Wardens.
 

 

It really doesn't.  It's not like he pulled the troops out of the tower or told anyone to keep it a secret that there were possible Darkspawn in the lower chambers.  The guard at the front was telling any random passer by that why that tower was off limits.  The way the situation reads to me is that there was in fact a basement to the tower we never saw because it wasn't relevant, the basement had been cleaned out and was being adequately guarded, but then the Darkspawn flanked the defenders by blasting up a new hole in the floor behind them.  And I'm not saying that as a defender of Loghain.  I do think he's a traitor.  I just don't think that the business with the tower makes it "clear" as you say.  

[Vanalia]

No, I blame Obama for those. But I think it's irrational of you to dismiss Loghain's involvement with the forfeited battle of Ostagar and the murder of most of the Couslands when there is clear evidence proving he had a hand in all of it.
 

 

I won't debate again about this, I don't agree with you. About the Couslands, it was Howe's doing. Loghain didn't care, or had other matters to think about, yes, but to me it was not him who planned that. But think what you want, stay in your black & white world where it's so easy to blame only one man for all the problems of the planet.

[Elhanan]

I won't debate again about this, I don't agree with you. About the Couslands, it was Howe's doing. Loghain didn't care, or had other matters to think about, yes, but to me it was not him who planned that. But think what you want, stay in your black & white world where it's so easy to blame only one man for all the problems of the planet.

Howe did plan the attack against the Couslands. But Loghain not only did not punish or imprison Howe after discovering this, but rewarded him with a promotion. Loghain is guilty of the actions of his subordinates.

[sylvanaerie]

Howe did plan the attack against the Couslands. But Loghain not only did not punish or imprison Howe after discovering this, but rewarded him with a promotion. Loghain is guilty of the actions of his subordinates.

This is not the same as saying Loghain was in collusion with Howe, and plotted the demise of the Couslands along with him.  Yes, I hold him accountable for not doing anything about it afterward, but he wasn't part of the plot beforehand.  I tend to think once he learned about the Cousland's he justified it to himself by 'they were colluding with the Orlesians' since Howe supposedly produced some 'evidence' of this.  It wouldn't take much with his paranoia to make him, if not believe it, to just look the other way.  Loghain is a pretty pragmatic individual when he isn't seeing Orlesians behind every curtain.  And he felt he needed Howe to help him run the country, and by then, Bryce and his family were already dead and Highever was in Howe's greedy little claws.  

 

Too bad he didn't realize his daughter would have been a much better choice, seeing as almost no one except Bryce seems to like Howe and Anora is popular with the nobles, but hindsight is 20/20, eh?

 

TBH, had Loghain done something about Howe, I probably would have liked him (Loghain) better.  But it also would have robbed my Cousland of the satisfaction of killing Howe myself.  And I'm honest enough to admit that was one of the most satisfying playthroughs the first time I ran a Cousland through Howe's estate and confronted him at last in the dungeons.  

[Mike3207]

Howe having killed the Couslands and taking Highever made him effective the leader of the North, with a great deal of influence among the northern banns. That's what made him so valuable to Loghain, his ability to marshall support among those banns.

 

Anora would have been a good choice, but her influence was limited to Denerim. That and her father seemed to listen to her less as time went on.