This is not the same as saying Loghain was in collusion with Howe, and plotted the demise of the Couslands along with him. Yes, I hold him accountable for not doing anything about it afterward, but he wasn't part of the plot beforehand. I
How do we know that?
How do we know that?
To be fair, a lack of evidence to prove guilt is extant. While it may be possible, there may not be any evidence or proof in the writing or games.
However, there is plenty for the available judgment and punishment. As for Howe, no sequels for him.
Unlike real life courts we do not have the benefit of investigating officers to question witnesses, execute searches and find out if Loghain and Howe were in communication before Ostagar. We know that Loghain had motive to want Cousland dead, and that after the massacre he was on intimate terms with Howe.. We know that he poisoned another nobleman when he had motives to eliminate that nobleman. These things would not be enough to get a conviction in an English Common Law court without evidence of events that happened before the game's start, but they would be enough to level a significant degree of suspicion against Loghain and warrant further investigation if he were not dead or conscripted.
Unlike real life courts we do not have the benefit of investigating officers to question witnesses, execute searches and find out if Loghain and Howe were in communication before Ostagar. We know that Loghain had motive to want Cousland dead, and that after the massacre he was on intimate terms with Howe.. We know that he poisoned another nobleman when he had motives to eliminate that nobleman. These things would not be enough to get a conviction in an English Common Law court without evidence of events that happened before the game's start, but they would be enough to level a significant degree of suspicion against Loghain and warrant further investigation if he were not dead or conscripted.
Unlike a court, in a game we have more access to motives, opportunity, and means.
No. We don't. We know that Loghain is rabidly paranoid about Orlais, and we know that Cousland just came back from Orlais. We know that Loghain stood to profit from Cousland's removal and that after the massacre he showered the perpetrator with honors and gold. That's all we know and we can't ask any questions to find out more. In a real trial we could find out whether Howe and Loghain were pre-massacre buddies giving them opportunity to conspire. We can't do that with events that happened before the start of the game.
How do we know that?
Because I tend to blame people for things they actually do, and not stuff speculated upon. Since Loghain is responsible for so many other crimes that we find ample evidence of in Origins, and not one scrap of anything, no codex or snippet of dialogue (even a rumor, which, at best, would be hearsay) of any alleged involvement in the Cousland massacre, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one. All I've ever seen as proof from those who include him in some JFK-like conspiracy theory is speculation upon more speculation about the nature and motives of Loghain and Howe.
We discover notes in Awakening that discuss Howe's plans for the Couslands with other individuals, but nothing that ties Loghain to the massacre. Nothing that even mentions him. We can even sit in judgement over some of those who were supporters of Howe, and no mention is made of Loghain.
At most Loghain didn't do anything to Howe when he learned what he'd done, but by then Highever was in Howe's hands and Loghain needed him.
And this is from someone who doesn't like Loghain, and has killed him in all but 1 of a couple dozen playthroughs.
No. We don't. We know that Loghain is rabidly paranoid about Orlais, and we know that Cousland just came back from Orlais. We know that Loghain stood to profit from Cousland's removal and that after the massacre he showered the perpetrator with honors and gold. That's all we know and we can't ask any questions to find out more. In a real trial we could find out whether Howe and Loghain were pre-massacre buddies giving them opportunity to conspire. We can't do that with events that happened before the start of the game.
It really doesn't. It's not like he pulled the troops out of the tower or told anyone to keep it a secret that there were possible Darkspawn in the lower chambers. The guard at the front was telling any random passer by that why that tower was off limits. The way the situation reads to me is that there was in fact a basement to the tower we never saw because it wasn't relevant, the basement had been cleaned out and was being adequately guarded, but then the Darkspawn flanked the defenders by blasting up a new hole in the floor behind them. And I'm not saying that as a defender of Loghain. I do think he's a traitor. I just don't think that the business with the tower makes it "clear" as you say.
The prospect of darkspawn rising up through the lower chambers was not a forethought in the minds of the common guards or soldiers. So of course Loghain would just keep them ignorant of the danger. And no one but the Cousland, or others of strategic mind, would suspect anything out of the ordinary about lower chambers being investigated, and only at the war table would that bit of trivia become relevant.
I already explained that the tower had been overrun as the battle began. The entire interior of the tower is decked out in darkspawn décor.
Let's also not forget the most important fact in all this. Loghain knew of Alistair's bloodline, and he needed him out of the way too. He sent him and the (possible) Cousland (also a viable candidate for the throne) to the Tower of Ishal. Why would he do this unless he knew their task of lighting the beacon was nearly impossible?
He needed to get rid of them same as Cailan. Same as Fergus, for that matter. So he knowingly sent them into the lions den. He knew Ishal was not secure, and he knew it would be overrun. He knew it! He knew it ahead of time! He knew they would be trapped in the tower and that they would die. Only reason they didn't was Flemeth, which Loghain couldn't have foreseen.
I won't debate again about this, I don't agree with you. About the Couslands, it was Howe's doing. Loghain didn't care, or had other matters to think about, yes, but to me it was not him who planned that. But think what you want, stay in your black & white world where it's so easy to blame only one man for all the problems of the planet.
It was Rendon who carried it out, but he would not have stuck his neck out unless he knew he could get away with it. Loghain was always his way out, and sure enough, he was. And this is even against the King's order that Rendon hang. That proves Loghain was the one who gave the order to kill the Couslands. Otherwise, Rendon was content enough to try and match Delilah with the M!Cousland.
He sent Fergus into an ambush, he sent the younger Cousland and Alistair to the death trap that was Ishal, and he poisoned Eamon ahead of time. He had it all planned out well in advance. He needed Bryce and Eleanor out of the way, knowing full well that many wanted Bryce as king over Cailan.
Facts.
It was Rendon who carried it out, but he would not have stuck his neck out unless he knew he could get away with it. Loghain was always his way out, and sure enough, he was. And this is even against the King's order that Rendon hang. That proves Loghain was the one who gave the order to kill the Couslands. Otherwise, Rendon was content enough to try and match Delilah with the M!Cousland.
He sent Fergus into an ambush, he sent the younger Cousland and Alistair to the death trap that was Ishal, and he poisoned Eamon ahead of time. He had it all planned out well in advance. He needed Bryce and Eleanor out of the way, knowing full well that many wanted Bryce as king over Cailan.
Facts.
Howe having killed the Couslands and taking Highever made him effective the leader of the North, with a great deal of influence among the northern banns. That's what made him so valuable to Loghain, his ability to marshall support among those banns.
Anora would have been a good choice, but her influence was limited to Denerim. That and her father seemed to listen to her less as time went on.
Not necessarily. Word everywhere was that very few supported Howe (Lady Sophie, Bann Esmerelle, etc). Even Bann Cerolic, who supported Loghain, did not support Rendon. Most hated him, especially after he arrived in Denerim. It could be said that all of his influence arose from the titles and recognition Loghain bestowed upon him. Loghain rewarded Rendon against Cailan's order that Rendon hang for what he did in Highever, and despite ignoring the King's call to arms in Ostagar.
And let's be honest, Loghain could have killed Rendon and any support he had would have fallen directly to Loghain anyway.
The only rational explanation is that they were in cahoots. It also explains why Rendon could not be disposed of. He had knowledge of Loghain's plots to take the throne long before Ostagar. Had he not pardoned Rendon and rewarded him, he would have been taken down with him.
Yeah.
Not quite.
Howe knew that Loghain and the King were at Ostagar, so getting away with it was a given unless one plays as a Human Noble. While Loghain is guilty of rewarding Howe and keeping him as an advisor even learning of the crime, there are no facts that support the charge of conspiracy, only supposition.
The King is the one that sends the Wardens into the Tower of Ishal; not Loghain. He is guilty of murder, poor choices, and bigotry, but there is no evidence to support conspiracy on this front.
But Howe still withheld requested troops from Ostagar. Which is treason also, on top of killing the Teyrn and Teyrna of Highever along with their children and grandchild. There is also the fact that Loghain did not kill Howe regardless. Why not? Because he couldn't kill him, not when Rendon could take Loghain down with him by blowing the lid off his conspiracy.
Good catch. But it is Loghain who stresses the importance of Ishal, and it is Loghain who okays the final decision to send the two of them. And he needed to kill Alistair somehow. This was vital. So he was okay with Alistair being sent to the tower because he knew it was a death trap.
The prospect of darkspawn rising up through the lower chambers was not a forethought in the minds of the common guards or soldiers. So of course Loghain would just keep them ignorant of the danger. And no one but the Cousland, or others of strategic mind, would suspect anything out of the ordinary about lower chambers being investigated, and only at the war table would that bit of trivia become relevant.
I already explained that the tower had been overrun as the battle began. The entire interior of the tower is decked out in darkspawn décor.
Let's also not forget the most important fact in all this. Loghain knew of Alistair's bloodline, and he needed him out of the way too. He sent him and the (possible) Cousland (also a viable candidate for the throne) to the Tower of Ishal. Why would he do this unless he knew their task of lighting the beacon was nearly impossible?
He needed to get rid of them same as Cailan. Same as Fergus, for that matter. So he knowingly sent them into the lions den. He knew Ishal was not secure, and he knew it would be overrun. He knew it! He knew it ahead of time! He knew they would be trapped in the tower and that they would die. Only reason they didn't was Flemeth, which Loghain couldn't have foreseen.
Loghain didn't keep them ignorant of the danger. The guard at the gates tells the Warden about the danger. And Loghain didn't send Alistair to the Tower. Cailan did, possibly because he didn't want the closest thing he had to an heir in the thick of battle. And how could Loghain be sure that the darkspawn were going to swarm the tower in overwhelming force?
It was Rendon who carried it out, but he would not have stuck his neck out unless he knew he could get away with it. Loghain was always his way out, and sure enough, he was. And this is even against the King's order that Rendon hang. That proves Loghain was the one who gave the order to kill the Couslands. Otherwise, Rendon was content enough to try and match Delilah with the M!Cousland.
He sent Fergus into an ambush, he sent the younger Cousland and Alistair to the death trap that was Ishal, and he poisoned Eamon ahead of time. He had it all planned out well in advance. He needed Bryce and Eleanor out of the way, knowing full well that many wanted Bryce as king over Cailan.
Facts.
I don't remember seeing any evidence as to who's idea it was to put Fergus whereever he got ambushed. Loghain might have been behind it, but Cailan was giving orders as well. It might even have been Fergus's idea, since his birth would probably afford him some initiative.
Because I tend to blame people for things they actually do, and not stuff speculated upon.
There is a great deal of difference between giving people the benefit of the doubt and knowing they are innocent.
There is a great deal of difference between giving people the benefit of the doubt and knowing they are innocent.
Yeah, but my understanding is that Sylvanaerie is merely trying to refute Dai Grepher's argument that we know he's guilty of this one crime, rather than saying we know he's innocent of it.
I don't remember seeing any evidence as to who's idea it was to put Fergus whereever he got ambushed. Loghain might have been behind it, but Cailan was giving orders as well. It might even have been Fergus's idea, since his birth would probably afford him some initiative.
Of course that seems like a bit of an oversight on Howe's part. With Fergus still alive and Howe having no legitimate claim to the lordship it's a bit hard to figure out how Howe's plan works if he doesn't have Loghain on board.
Of course that seems like a bit of an oversight on Howe's part. With Fergus still alive and Howe having no legitimate claim to the lordship it's a bit hard to figure out how Howe's plan works if he doesn't have Loghain on board.
Presumably he puts a number of assassins into the Ostagar army with instructions to kill Fergus, making sure that none of them know of the others so that they can't betray each other. This is more difficult but not even close to impossible if Loghain is not on board.
Loghain didn't keep them ignorant of the danger. The guard at the gates tells the Warden about the danger. And Loghain didn't send Alistair to the Tower. Cailan did, possibly because he didn't want the closest thing he had to an heir in the thick of battle. And how could Loghain be sure that the darkspawn were going to swarm the tower in overwhelming force?
No, the guard says nothing about any danger. He merely tells him the tower is off limits because Loghain's men are investigating some lower chambers and they don't know how far down they go.
Loghain didn't send Alistair to the tower, he was probably going to send him to the front lines with Duncan, but he did agree with the idea to send him and the Cousland to the tower because he knew it was not secure. He had to get rid of Alistair and the Cousland, remember.
Loghain knew the lower chambers connected to the battlefield, and he knew the darkspawn's true numbers. The sick soldier in the camp warns about their numbers, but everyone thought he was mad because they believed Loghain's false reports instead. So did Cailan. And even if the darkspawn had not swarmed the tower, Alistair would still be stuck on the top floor, while all of Ostagar would be overrun. He would be trapped regardless. Loghain could not have foreseen Flemeth's swooping.
I don't remember seeing any evidence as to who's idea it was to put Fergus whereever he got ambushed. Loghain might have been behind it, but Cailan was giving orders as well. It might even have been Fergus's idea, since his birth would probably afford him some initiative.
I think it's mentioned a few times by different people that Loghain is the one forming the strategies and moving the units. Cailan just drinks and socializes with the troops, and probably fights a few minor battles now and then.
Fergus is not a teyrn. He would not be allowed to make any decisions, especially not right away when he doesn't know the area. He confirms that his unit was scouting when it was ambushed by darkspawn. I think this indicates that he was sent into territory that was known to be dangerous, and only Loghain would be aware of this.
No, the guard says nothing about any danger. He merely tells him the tower is off limits because Loghain's men are investigating some lower chambers and they don't know how far down they go.
Loghain didn't send Alistair to the tower, he was probably going to send him to the front lines with Duncan, but he did agree with the idea to send him and the Cousland to the tower because he knew it was not secure. He had to get rid of Alistair and the Cousland, remember.
Loghain knew the lower chambers connected to the battlefield, and he knew the darkspawn's true numbers. The sick soldier in the camp warns about their numbers, but everyone thought he was mad because they believed Loghain's false reports instead. So did Cailan. And even if the darkspawn had not swarmed the tower, Alistair would still be stuck on the top floor, while all of Ostagar would be overrun. He would be trapped regardless. Loghain could not have foreseen Flemeth's swooping.
Of course that seems like a bit of an oversight on Howe's part. With Fergus still alive and Howe having no legitimate claim to the lordship it's a bit hard to figure out how Howe's plan works if he doesn't have Loghain on board.
Exactly. Rendon needs Fergus dead as well, and if Loghain is not in on it, he would also need to kill Loghain and Cailan before they can find out about what he did and raise troops against him.
And stop saying "he sent the warden there because he wanted Cousland dead", and what if the warden is NOT a Cousland, but an elf, a dwarf, a mage, anything? see? your argument is invalid, it doesn't mean anything, because Loghain acts exaaaactly the same way if the warden is a Cousland OR NOT.
So... stop being paranoiac... what did Loghain do to you? kill your dog? ruined your childhood?
So... stop being paranoiac... what did Loghain do to you? kill your dog? ruined your childhood?
Why am I picturing Loghain in blue spandex and a full-face helmet wielding a lance?
The man married a women with Orlesian blood, and then suggests Bryce was treacherous for peacefully visiting Orlais?
I mean, what an enormous jackass.
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