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[RoseLawliet]

The man married a women with Orlesian blood, and then suggests Bryce was treacherous for peacefully visiting Orlais? 

 

I mean, what an enormous jackass. 

 

I don't think anyone's ever accused him of making sense.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I don't think anyone's ever accused him of making sense.

People have accused him of thinking through his plans logically.

[Illegitimus]

I don't think anyone's ever accused him of making sense.

 

I have.  Everything Howe did makes sense to me, assuming that he conspired with Loghain in advance of his treachery.  That's one of the reasons why I believe that Loghain was in fact complicit to some degree.  I don't like the idea that Howe and Loghain were just stupid.  Of course I have no idea what indicates that Howe married a woman "with Orlesian blood".  It's the first I've heard of it.  

[Ghost Gal]

I have.  Everything Howe did makes sense to me, assuming that he conspired with Loghain in advance of his treachery.  That's one of the reasons why I believe that Loghain was in fact complicit to some degree.  I don't like the idea that Howe and Loghain were just stupid.  Of course I have no idea what indicates that Howe married a woman "with Orlesian blood".  It's the first I've heard of it.  

 

Yeah... I personally am not a huge fan of the Couslands, but I doubt even Howe would be rock-stupid enough to slaughter them out-of-hand and expect not to receive massive backlash from it. I think he would only slaughter them if he knew he was guaranteed protection afterwards. Even if you don't believe Loghain collaborated with him beforehand, Bryce was chummy with Eamon and his Orlesian wife and made frequent peaceful visits to Orlais, which likely would set off Loghain's Orlesian paranoia, which I'm pretty sure Howe played to guarantee political protection after his slaughter and usurpation. 

 

 

 

I personally think the entire game's story makes more sense if you believe Howe, Uldred, and Loghain conspired with each other before Ostagar. Cailan, Eamon, and Bryce were THE three big political powerhouses in Ferelden, and all of them were very close with each other and had friendly ties to Orlais, which would set off Loghain's Orlesian paranoia. Are we supposed to believe that Howe attacked the Couslands and Loghain left the king to die and poisoned Eamon and then crowned himself and Uldred rebelled against the Templars all at once, all independently of each other, all without securing any political protection beforehand, all during a Blight? Yeah ****** right.

 

I personally think the story makes more sense if you believe that Eamon and Cailan were planning on divorcing Anora for Celene, and Loghain caught wind. Then, darkspawn appeared south and the king called the Grey Wardens (which further set off Loghain's Orlesian paranoia). Seeing an opportunity, the three malcontents somehow met up with each other before Ostagar and got to work.

 

1) Howe wanted to kill and usurp the Couslands but needed political protection afterwards, and Loghain needed their political power but needed them out of the way (since they're staunch Cailan and Eamon supporters), so he gave Howe the go-ahead to kill them before they made it south in return for lending his military and political support afterward.

 

2) At Ostagar, Loghain made a battle strategy that would take out the king and his army and his Grey Wardens in one fell swoop, while leaving his men free to quit the field under the guise of "they were killed by the darkspawn!" He created a battle strategy that the King and all loyal to him would charge the darkspawn, while Loghain and his men stayed out-of-sight of the field and relied on a signal from the Tower of Ishal to charge. However, with darkspawn digging about, his men "secured" the tower before the battle, which conveniently resulted in the darkspawn flooding the tower at the start of the battle, which would ensure that a handful of "Loghain's men" (changed to two junior Wardens at the last minute by Cailan) wouldn't be able to light the signal, which would give Loghain and the excuse to flee.

 

3) Eamon and his forces were either meant to die with Cailan in the battle but the idiot wouldn't wait for him ("Ha! Eamon just wants in on the glory"), or Loghain poisoned him shortly before Ostagar to ensure that Cailan's forces weren't big enough to survive the darkpsawn on their own. The timeline's a little vague, but either way, Loghain took out Cailan and the Grey Wardens with the darkspawn and took out Eamon with poison shortly before or after Ostagar by taking advantage of Isolde's and Jowan's plight.

 

4) Uldred and his followers would overthrow the Templars in return for political support from Loghain, then give magical support to Loghain's political ambitions.

 

With the Couslands killed and replaced by Howe, and Cailan killed and replaced by Loghain, and Eamon poisoned, and Uldred soon to join them, this would ensure that Howe and Loghain and Uldred (once they got to him) would become the new big three political powerhouses in Ferelden. With their combined power they could cow the nobles in line, defeat the darkspawn, then ensure that Ferelden remained an Orlais-free zone for Loghain, a Templar-fee zone for Uldred and his mages, and Howe could become the most powerful noble in Ferelden like he wanted.

 

THAT MAKES SENSE. However, there were a few wrenches in their plan. Not all the Grey Wardens died at Ostagar; Alistair and the Warden survived and went around raising an army. The nobles didn't just all fall into line, Teagan stood up to Loghain and rallied support for a civil war. Uldred didn't win over the mages because Wynne survived and told them of Loghain's desertion, which basically snowballed in Uldred getting possessed by a Pride demon and the Templars shutting up the Circle. Eamon didn't die from the poisoning, he only fell into a coma (thanks to his son's deal with a Desire demon), and the two Grey Wardens who survived Ostagar managed to revive him.

 

I think that makes sense, yet I'm sure Loghain apologists are going to come over going "No, David Gaider said Loghain didn't plan on deserting before the battle!" "It hasn't been confirmed that Loghain's men sabotaged the Tower of Ishal, so I say he's innocent!" "Gaider didn't say Loghain collaborated with Howe to kill the Couslands beforehand!" However, I have heard that the story got revised and redrafted many times before the game's release, so I'm willing to bet some early story drafts involved what I just described... which honestly makes a lot of sense. Three malcontents aren't happy with how Cailan, Eamon, and Bryce are running the show, so they conspire to help each other take them out and then support each other's political ambitions in return for support for what they want (Orlais-free zone for Loghain, Templar-free zone for Uldred, and political power for Howe), but they miss several spots and the Warden (you) add them up to take them down.

 

As it is, if you choose to believe that Loghain is an innocent little lamb from beginning to end and didn't conspire with Howe or Uldred at all until after Ostagar, most of their choices just come across as ROCK STUPID for choosing now of all times (during a Blight) to take down huge political powerhouses (Cailan for Loghain, Couslands for Howe, Templars for Uldred) by themselves, with no thought of securing political support for the fallback they'll inevitably receive. Also that it's just the mother of all coincidences that they happen to decide to commit these crimes close to each other and then join forces shortly afterwards and save each other from the fallback of their own idiocy. ("Hey, you just betrayed and killed the Couslands and no one's happy with you? I just betrayed and let the king die and no one's happy with me. Let's join forces, because you seem like a standup guy." "Hey, we're in Ostagar and I have no designs to leave the king to die, but it sounds like you want support against the Templars. Even though the king bows to the Chantry's wishes regarding mages and I'm just the queen's father, I'll totally support your bid for freedom even though I have no intention to gain any more political power to back up that promise after Ostagar." I mean, really? Come on!)

 

At best, I'll believe that Loghain didn't conspire with Howe to kill the Couslands before Ostagar, on the condition that I believe that Howe knew of Loghain's extreme paranoia against Orlais and used the whole "they're spies for Orlais (I mean, just look at the company they keep)" excuse to manipulate Loghain into pardoning and protecting him afterwards; because otherwise that's just weak.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As it is, if you choose to believe that Loghain is an innocent little lamb from beginning to end and didn't conspire with Howe or Uldred at all until after Ostagar, most of their choices just come across as ROCK STUPID for choosing now of all times (during a Blight) to take down huge political powerhouses (Cailan for Loghain, Couslands for Howe, Templars for Uldred) by themselves, with no thought of securing political support for the fallback they'll inevitably receive. Also that it's just the mother of all coincidences that they happen to decide to commit these crimes close to each other and then join forces shortly afterwards and save each other from the fallback of their own idiocy. ("Hey, you just betrayed and killed the Couslands and no one's happy with you? I just betrayed and let the king die and no one's happy with me. Let's join forces, because you seem like a standup guy." "Hey, we're in Ostagar and I have no designs to leave the king to die, but it sounds like you want support against the Templars. Even though the king bows to the Chantry's wishes regarding mages and I'm just the queen's father, I'll totally support your bid for freedom even though I have no intention to gain any more political power to back up that promise after Ostagar." I mean, really? Come on!)

 

At best, I'll believe that Loghain didn't conspire with Howe to kill the Couslands before Ostagar, on the condition that I believe that Howe knew of Loghain's extreme paranoia against Orlais and used the whole "they're spies for Orlais (I mean, just look at the company they keep)" excuse to manipulate Loghain into pardoning and protecting him afterwards; because otherwise that's just weak.

Loghain's own plans can be made sense of in a way that doesn't require him to be planning this from the start, and doesn't require him to be entirely stupid, if you assume that he really didn't intend to leave the king to die and he's hastily throwing together a coalition with what he has because he only just now realizes he needs one.

 

Uldred's Plan A as I remember Wynne or Niall (don't remember which) describing it was to use the alliance with Loghain to gain some weight to throw around while negotiating with the Chantry, rather than to gain complete freedom. There's limits to how much Uldred can do with that, but it's still useful: in addition to Loghain having influence due to being Anora's father, he's also powerful in his own right. The Chantry's not going to free the Ferelden Circle to keep him happy, but they'd probably make some serious concessions. And if I'm remembering that wrong, there's still room for Loghain to have made the alliance after Ostagar, when he had somewhat more influence due to being the father of the woman who was de facto in charge. Uldred could very well have told Loghain "I want to throw off the Templars" and gotten Loghain's support due to his need for mages and his feeling that Orlais and the Chantry were already probably planning an invasion. (They weren't, but Loghain seems to believe Orlais was and the Chantry usually looks out for Orlesian interests.)

 

Howe's plan is just stupid. Which is totally in character for him. He embezzles in a time of war, tries to get work done on one of his new houses without paying, and keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own (apparently favorite) home when they should be kept someplace he can pretend not to be associated with if they need to be kept alive. (And I see no reason why any of them need to be.)

[Illegitimus]

 

 

Howe's plan is just stupid. Which is totally in character for him. He embezzles in a time of war, tries to get work done on one of his new houses without paying, and keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own (apparently favorite) home when they should be kept someplace he can pretend not to be associated with if they need to be kept alive. (And I see no reason why any of them need to be.)

 

The "embezzlement" makes sense if Howe doesn't have faith in Loghain's ability to turn back the Darkspawn and certainly after the point at which Howe of all people says "Um, Loghain, maybe we should make beating the Darkspawn our top priority" or words to that effect, his concern is reasonable.  He's worried Denerim might fall so he moves the city treasury farther north.  It's not a stupid move at all.  Similarly stiffing the tradesmen makes sense in a context where he thinks he's likely to lose Denerim while he hired them when he thought he was there to stay.  Those complainers will soon be dead.  And if things turn out for the better, well he can always settle with them later.  If only by whipping them bloody.  

 

So that leaves the two or three noble prisoners he's keeping in his dungeon.  (We can safely ignore Rexel.  Nobody much is going to care about a blighted madman.)  The thing is, keeping Irminric or Vaughn somewhere else would be pointless.  Vaughn knows he was captured by Howe.  There's no deniability there.  All that moving him to another location would do is run the risk of exposure in transit.  And Irminric knows that Loghain rescued Jowan from him and took at least one templar prisoner (I suspect that at least one other templar was there but was killed due to a lack of value).  Compared to that damaging testimony that Irminric was being held by Howe is trivial.  Lastly there's Oswyn.  True, Oswyn didn't know who captured him at first.  But there's no point in holding Oswyn elsewhere if you're going to be holding Irminric anyway.   Better just to keep them both in the Arl's dungeon which is the most secure facility available.  And Howe can't kill the two of them because they are related to important Banns whose votes Loghain might need.  If they start to swing the wrong way, then Howe and Loghain can use their hostages to bring the two of them back into line.  

 

That's not to say that Howe is entirely smart.  Torturing Oswyn?  Now that truly is stupid.  The smart thing to do would have been to treat Oswyn as well as Anora.  But "makes sense" isn't the same thing as "is smart".   Where Loghain's character flaw is his xenophobic paranoia, Howe has two major character flaws.  He's greedy, and he's vicious. If he thinks he can get away with gratuitous murder and torture, he will even if there's no particular profit in it.   It's likely that he was offended enough by things Vaughn said to him that he was going to make killing Vaughn a lengthy process and just hadn't gotten around to it yet.  There were more important things.  

 

But still my preferred interpretation of Howe is not "is incredibly stupid and even more lucky".  I like to think to think he had a plan when he killed the Couslands.  

[Ghost Gal]

Loghain's own plans can be made sense of in a way that doesn't require him to be planning this from the start, and doesn't require him to be entirely stupid, if you assume that he really didn't intend to leave the king to die and he's hastily throwing together a coalition with what he has because he only just now realizes he needs one.

 

Uldred's Plan A as I remember Wynne or Niall (don't remember which) describing it was to use the alliance with Loghain to gain some weight to throw around while negotiating with the Chantry, rather than to gain complete freedom. There's limits to how much Uldred can do with that, but it's still useful: in addition to Loghain having influence due to being Anora's father, he's also powerful in his own right. The Chantry's not going to free the Ferelden Circle to keep him happy, but they'd probably make some serious concessions. And if I'm remembering that wrong, there's still room for Loghain to have made the alliance after Ostagar, when he had somewhat more influence due to being the father of the woman who was de facto in charge. Uldred could very well have told Loghain "I want to throw off the Templars" and gotten Loghain's support due to his need for mages and his feeling that Orlais and the Chantry were already probably planning an invasion. (They weren't, but Loghain seems to believe Orlais was and the Chantry usually looks out for Orlesian interests.)

 

Howe's plan is just stupid. Which is totally in character for him. He embezzles in a time of war, tries to get work done on one of his new houses without paying, and keeps politically sensitive prisoners in his own (apparently favorite) home when they should be kept someplace he can pretend not to be associated with if they need to be kept alive. (And I see no reason why any of them need to be.)

 

No, I'm sorry, I don't buy that.

 

Loghain promising Uldred support against the Templars without any intention to gain political power doesn't make sense since his current political clout and influence over the king isn't enough to guarantee any of that. Cailan needs mages to help fight against the darkspawn but the Chantry won't spare more than a handful of mages because they're afraid of loosening their grip on them (and Cailan doesn't force the issue), and Loghain can't talk Cailan in or out of anything, from their mysterious "arguments over the queen" that Cailan's guard alluds to (which we now know it being his plan to divorce her for Celene, which I think Gaider said Loghain knows about) to complying with battle strategies. Anora may be the de facto queen in times of peace, but once the darkspawn show up Cailan steps up and starts playing the "I'm king, you obey" card. Not to mention Cailan was planning on divorcing Anora for Celene. Loghain saying, "I think we need to support the mages against the Templars, and thus the Chantry, to fight the darkspawn" and Cailan said, "No, we don't need them / we can't afford to anger the Chantry that way," guess whose word is final? Especially since what little clout Loghain has as father of the queen doesn't go very far since the queen is a) a female non-fighter who must take a backseat to her warrior husband in times of warfare and b ) about to be dumped for the Empress of Orlais anyway.

 

If you want to believe Loghain is an innocent little lamb who didn't plan anything nefarious until about two seconds after the signal lighted, that creates a lot of plot holes, and honestly makes him, Uldred, and Howe look really damn stupid for pulling all the stunts they did when they did it, without any expectation of backlash nor plans or support to deal with said backlash. (Not to mention the mother of all coincidences that they all happened to try to bunk the status quo at this time and then decided to support each other after, surprise surprise, they received backlash for their actions.)

 

Howe does a lot of stupid things during the game, it's true, but most of it comes from overconfidence from all the new lands, titles, castles, and military and political support the new regent keeps showering over him. (It's pretty easy to think yourself untouchable when you have a business card a mile long and the most politically and militaristically powerful man in the nation literally letting you get away with murder.) When he first slaughtered the Couslands though, he was still a lesser, unpopular arl who just butchered what the game keeps reminding us is the most powerful and beloved family under the royal family. Again, he may be stupid, but even I don't think he expected the entire Bannorn to just turn a blind eye to that, or buy "they were Orlesian spies" as an excuse. LOGHAIN buys it though, and he's the most openly anti-Orlesian noble in Ferelden. So I think they either collaborated beforehand (which would make sense considering how the story plays out), or at the very least Howe knew of Loghain's Orlesian paranoia and planned on using the "Orlesian spies" excuse to get at least the queen's father to believe and shelter him.

[RoseLawliet]

I have.  Everything Howe did makes sense to me, assuming that he conspired with Loghain in advance of his treachery.  That's one of the reasons why I believe that Loghain was in fact complicit to some degree.  I don't like the idea that Howe and Loghain were just stupid.  Of course I have no idea what indicates that Howe married a woman "with Orlesian blood".  It's the first I've heard of it.  

 

World of Thedas volume 2. He married the half Orlesian sister of Arl Leonas Bryland, making that annoying girl Habren cousin to Howe's children, who are now one quarter Orlesian. Sort of makes sense now why Nathaniel's grandmother hated his father, especially since they apparently married for money. ... Wasn't this covered in the very beginning of this thread? I guess it would be easy enough for me to check, but I'm lazy.

[RoseLawliet]

I guess my comment up there was meant half in jest, but I forgot this was the internet. Believe me, Howe and Loghain are Serious Business to me, too. He just really annoys me, so I feel free to insult him, even if it was hyperbole.

 

I will say that there is a difference between someone thinking their actions are logical and those same actions making sense to an outsider. There are many examples I could bring up, but for the moment they all happen to be religious in nature.

[hpjay]

I just want to chime in an say that this thread shows one of the strengths of the original Dragon Age game.  The conflict between King Cailan Theirin and Loghain Mac Tir has enough subtlety and ambiguity that it is easy to come up with reasons for why you might support one point of view over the other.  That small bit of fluidity inherent in the way the story was written allows for a range of role play options based on which side seems more sympathetic.  

[Iakus]

The man married a women with Orlesian blood, and then suggests Bryce was treacherous for peacefully visiting Orlais? 

 

I mean, what an enormous jackass. 

"Maker spit on you!  I deserved more!"  

[themikefest]

"Maker spit on you!  I deserved more!"  

You're right. More stab wounds are needed. hahahaha

[Cobra's_back]

"Maker spit on you!  I deserved more!"  

Howe, the one guy I would consider feeding to wolves alive just to watch him get torn apart.

[sylvanaerie]

You're right. More stab wounds are needed. hahahaha

Yea, I have to admit I reloaded it again and again just so I could give him the 'more' he deserved.

[Dai Grepher]

And stop saying "he sent the warden there because he wanted Cousland dead", and what if the warden is NOT a Cousland, but an elf, a dwarf, a mage, anything? see? your argument is invalid, it doesn't mean anything, because Loghain acts exaaaactly the same way if the warden is a Cousland OR NOT.

 

So... stop being paranoiac... what did Loghain do to you? kill your dog? ruined your childhood?

 

I wrote that he approved them going there because he needed Alistair dead, and the Cousland too if that was the player's pick. Otherwise, he would want any other Warden dead as well so they can't interfere. Having a non-Cousland does not defeat my point.
 

[Dai Grepher]

I would also like to add that Rendon's story about the Couslands working with Orlais to undermine Ferelden was just his cover story with the banns for attacking Highever. It was never to convince Loghain of anything.

 

Also, Loghain planned his betrayal before Ostagar. Eamon was poisoned before the battle of Ostagar. Ser Donnel in Lothering's chantry confirms this.

 

Gaider also confirmed that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora, and the original story was that Loghain found out about it. However, it was changed so that Loghain finds out if you take him to Ostagar in the RtO DLC. He still may have suspected it though.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I wrote that he approved them going there because he needed Alistair dead, and the Cousland too if that was the player's pick. Otherwise, he would want any other Warden dead as well so they can't interfere. Having a non-Cousland does not defeat my point.
 

 

He didn't seem to approve, though. He suggested to Cailan that it was a poor idea, and if he was a good enough actor to fake his concern he did not show it through the Landsmeet where Teagan interrogates him on Ostagar.

 

 

Gaider also confirmed that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora, and the original story was that Loghain found out about it. However, it was changed so that Loghain finds out if you take him to Ostagar in the RtO DLC. He still may have suspected it though.

He may have, though I tend to doubt it. He seemed to me to be caught entirely off-guard by the reveal that Cailan was in on Celene's plans.

 

Also, if you're going to be using Gaider's word at all, you should probably know that Gaider said that Cailan's death wasn't the plan; Cailan was supposed to live through Ostagar and then get his power severely cut by Loghain's next move. (Which explains why Loghain poisoned Eamon, btw, as Eamon would try to keep Cailan's power intact despite Cailan clearly not knowing what to do with it.)

[Illegitimus]

I would also like to add that Rendon's story about the Couslands working with Orlais to undermine Ferelden was just his cover story with the banns for attacking Highever. It was never to convince Loghain of anything.

 

Also, Loghain planned his betrayal before Ostagar. Eamon was poisoned before the battle of Ostagar. Ser Donnel in Lothering's chantry confirms this.

 

Gaider also confirmed that Cailan was planning to divorce Anora, and the original story was that Loghain found out about it. However, it was changed so that Loghain finds out if you take him to Ostagar in the RtO DLC. He still may have suspected it though.

 

1.  I find it highly unlikely that Howe didn't tell Loghain that Cousland was plotting with Orlais.  Even assuming that Howe and Loghain conspired beforehand (and I really do), Howe telling the paranoid Loghain such a story would be an excellent way to convince him their conspiracy was a good and necessary thing.  Not treason but patriotism.

 

2.  While Dragon Age Origins does strange things with time, it does seem to me that it would be difficult to fit "rescue Jowan and set him about poisoning Eamon" into the time frame in which Loghain is scooting back to Denerim.  The Redcliffe knights need time to scour the land for word of the Ashes and the Warden is coming in at the end of that search.  If I was novelizing Origins there would be no way that I could plausibly have all that happen before the Warden reaches Lothering.  So yes, I think Loghain arranged for Eamon's poisoning in advance of Ostagar.  However, poisoning Eamon isn't necessarily an indication that he intended to kill Cailan at that point.  Eamon was a political enemy who wanted Anora replaced.  That alone was motive enough to want Eamon out of the way.  Note that knowing Eamon wanted Anora out of the way isn't the same thing as knowing that Cailan was in marital negotiations with Celene.  I mean heck, if the player  has a female human noble she would have been an excellent candidate for marriage to Cailan.

 

All in all, I tend to think that Loghain was plotting to eliminate those nobles who he saw as most influencing Cailan toward detente with Orlais and against Anora at first.  My headcanon is that the original plan was that Eamon would be poisoned with something slow but inevitable, while Fergus would die in a Uriah gambit before Bryce's supposed death in a fall from horseback.  That would leave the potential PC Cousland as heir, who could be married off to one of Howe's children.  Howe revises his part of the plan when he decides that the potential PC isn't going to be that easily controlled because it is either too smooth or too rebellious.  So instead he goes to his fallback plan of a massacre to create a vacuum he can fill with Loghain's support.  

 

Then at the war table session, Loghain comes to realize that even eliminating the nobles who have been "influencing" Cailan isn't going to bring Cailan into line.  In fact Cailan is showing distinct signs of wanting to chart his own course.  Just eliminating the "bad influences" isn't going to keep him from allying with Orlais against the blight they've been tricked by the Orlesian controlled wardens is happening and setting aside Anora.  

[Dai Grepher]

He didn't seem to approve, though. He suggested to Cailan that it was a poor idea, and if he was a good enough actor to fake his concern he did not show it through the Landsmeet where Teagan interrogates him on Ostagar.

 

 

He may have, though I tend to doubt it. He seemed to me to be caught entirely off-guard by the reveal that Cailan was in on Celene's plans.

 

Also, if you're going to be using Gaider's word at all, you should probably know that Gaider said that Cailan's death wasn't the plan; Cailan was supposed to live through Ostagar and then get his power severely cut by Loghain's next move. (Which explains why Loghain poisoned Eamon, btw, as Eamon would try to keep Cailan's power intact despite Cailan clearly not knowing what to do with it.)

 

Regardless of what he said to Cailan before this, you do admit that ultimately Loghain did agree with the Wardens going to Ishal, yes? And what was the alternative to Ishal? The front lines? He probably figured they were as good as dead at Ishal as they would be on the front.

 

I agree that he was surprised if taken to RtO, and I agree that he wasn't aware of Cailan's scheme, but my opinion is that Loghain had his suspicions that Cailan would divorce Anora. In any case, he didn't think Cailan was leading Ferelden properly, and the plot to kill him was formed in advance. Anora was the de facto ruler anyway, so Cailan was nothing but an obstacle.
 

I don't use Gaider's word for anything, except maybe to counter those who hold Gaider's word as absolute truth. But I don't regard Gaider's word on the lore as anything other than his often misinformed opinion. I have seen this claim before, that Gaider said killing Cailan wasn't the plan. However, I have yet to see a quote of him stating this.

 

Even if that were the original story, it wasn't the final one. Maybe it was dropped because it didn't make sense. I don't see how it could. As soon as Cailan leaves Ostagar in defeat, his first move would be to execute Rendon for his treachery, both in murdering the Couslands and for denying him Amaranthine's soldiers thus contributing to the loss at Ostagar. Rendon then takes Loghain down with him by blowing the lid off his plan to throw the battle and kill the Wardens. And if Cailan was supposed to live through Ostagar, then just how long was he supposed to live? Why work on cutting his power politically when you can just kill him instead?

[Dai Grepher]

1.  I find it highly unlikely that Howe didn't tell Loghain that Cousland was plotting with Orlais.  Even assuming that Howe and Loghain conspired beforehand (and I really do), Howe telling the paranoid Loghain such a story would be an excellent way to convince him their conspiracy was a good and necessary thing.  Not treason but patriotism.

 

2.  While Dragon Age Origins does strange things with time, it does seem to me that it would be difficult to fit "rescue Jowan and set him about poisoning Eamon" into the time frame in which Loghain is scooting back to Denerim.  The Redcliffe knights need time to scour the land for word of the Ashes and the Warden is coming in at the end of that search.  If I was novelizing Origins there would be no way that I could plausibly have all that happen before the Warden reaches Lothering.  So yes, I think Loghain arranged for Eamon's poisoning in advance of Ostagar.  However, poisoning Eamon isn't necessarily an indication that he intended to kill Cailan at that point.  Eamon was a political enemy who wanted Anora replaced.  That alone was motive enough to want Eamon out of the way.  Note that knowing Eamon wanted Anora out of the way isn't the same thing as knowing that Cailan was in marital negotiations with Celene.  I mean heck, if the player  has a female human noble she would have been an excellent candidate for marriage to Cailan.

 

All in all, I tend to think that Loghain was plotting to eliminate those nobles who he saw as most influencing Cailan toward detente with Orlais and against Anora at first.  My headcanon is that the original plan was that Eamon would be poisoned with something slow but inevitable, while Fergus would die in a Uriah gambit before Bryce's supposed death in a fall from horseback.  That would leave the potential PC Cousland as heir, who could be married off to one of Howe's children.  Howe revises his part of the plan when he decides that the potential PC isn't going to be that easily controlled because it is either too smooth or too rebellious.  So instead he goes to his fallback plan of a massacre to create a vacuum he can fill with Loghain's support.  

 

Then at the war table session, Loghain comes to realize that even eliminating the nobles who have been "influencing" Cailan isn't going to bring Cailan into line.  In fact Cailan is showing distinct signs of wanting to chart his own course.  Just eliminating the "bad influences" isn't going to keep him from allying with Orlais against the blight they've been tricked by the Orlesian controlled wardens is happening and setting aside Anora.  

 

1. If they conspired, and we know they did, then there is no reason to convince Loghain that the Couslands were somehow working with Orlais. Loghain's motive for eliminating the Couslands is so he can be regent when Cailan is killed. So Loghain wouldn't care one way or the other what the Couslands were doing, though I'm sure that was the cover story regardless.
 

2. Glad we agree on the timing at least. But how does killing Eamon for his opinion really help anyone? Eamon wasn't the only one speculating that Anora was barren and that Cailan needed to remarry. And I don't see how holding that opinion makes someone a political enemy. It's common sense. Even Loghain believed that Anora should produce an heir in order to secure both the Mac Tir line and the Theirin line on the throne. Five years passed without even a pregnancy, which means something needed to change. Of course Loghain's answer to the problem was a different one from what everyone else was thinking. And that's the point, everyone was thinking that Cailan needed a new wife to grant him an heir. Killing Eamon over that serves no purpose. Teagan was likely of the same opinion, and would have encouraged Cailan in the same direction. And it isn't like Eamon was in control of Cailan's actions. Whether Cailan remarried or not was always up to Cailan to decide, not Eamon. Killing Eamon only makes sense in eliminating any resistance to Loghain claiming the regency. As Teagan eludes, if Eamon were here...

 

That's a lot of premises the story has to meet in order to be true. I think killing Cailan was always the plan. He always fought Loghain on everything even if he would typically agree with him in the end.

 

The facts that oppose your theory the most is that Loghain willingly takes Rendon as an ally even after Cailan declares him a traitor who must hang. And again, Rendon would not have taken the chance unless he knew he would not face any consequences for it.

[Illegitimus]

1. If they conspired, and we know they did, then there is no reason to convince Loghain that the Couslands were somehow working with Orlais. Loghain's motive for eliminating the Couslands is so he can be regent when Cailan is killed. So Loghain wouldn't care one way or the other what the Couslands were doing, though I'm sure that was the cover story regardless.

 

You think Loghain wouldn't care that a Ferelden nobleman was chummy with Orlesians?    I really think you should stop and think about that one for a while.

 

 

The facts that oppose your theory the most is that Loghain willingly takes Rendon as an ally even after Cailan declares him a traitor who must hang. And again, Rendon would not have taken the chance unless he knew he would not face any consequences for it.

 

I think Loghain took Rendon as an ally before the massacre, and that Cailan would not have declared Rendon a traitor if Rendon had succeeded in making his massacre a clean sweep so that no eyewitness was left to denounce him to Cailan.  It's possible that in a situation where the Warden was the human nobleman, but Cailan didn't talk about calling in the Orlesians at the war table, Loghain would instead have thrown Rendon under the bus and just made sure Rendon died before he could share inconvenient disclosures about who he'd been plotting with.  

[Illegitimus]

You know what?  I'm wrong.  There's no way that Loghain could have arranged for Eamon's poisoning before Ostagar.  While the timing of events with Loghain poisoning Eamon after Ostagar is dubious, Loghain was at Ostagar before the final battle. Unlike Duncan he couldn't have left on a recruiting trip.  The only way he could have met Jowan before Ostagar is if Jowan went to Ostagar, and the timing of that is even more problematic considering that Jowan and the mage warden leave the tower on the same day.  

[jros83]

This is why I always feel playing as a Cousland has the richest experience story-wise. Howe's betrayal of your father and slaughtering of your family turns out being a part of Loghain's grand plan as well. So you're doubly invested.

 

If people say Howe's betrayal was solely its own thing, I would like to point out that 1. Loghain makes it clear he is proactively against certain noble families who he would have a good idea would be against him (and the Couslands are made to appear honorable traditionalists) and 2. Howe being Loghain's lackey in general is a strong indicator that the move against Highever was not JUST for his own purposes. The Human Noble origin I feel has a strong tie the main story, more so than any of the others.

[Dai Grepher]

You think Loghain wouldn't care that a Ferelden nobleman was chummy with Orlesians?    I really think you should stop and think about that one for a while.

 

 

I think Loghain took Rendon as an ally before the massacre, and that Cailan would not have declared Rendon a traitor if Rendon had succeeded in making his massacre a clean sweep so that no eyewitness was left to denounce him to Cailan.  It's possible that in a situation where the Warden was the human nobleman, but Cailan didn't talk about calling in the Orlesians at the war table, Loghain would instead have thrown Rendon under the bus and just made sure Rendon died before he could share inconvenient disclosures about who he'd been plotting with.  

 

I think he would consider it to be of no consequence. He had planned to get rid of them regardless. I don't even think it would be icing on the cake to him at that point. He'll slay a turncoat for fun. Killing the Couslands was necessity first and foremost.

 

I seriously doubt Cailan would have trusted Rendon's word on that. He would have told him that he should have presented his evidence to him first before taking such actions, and that matters of treason are for the crown to rule on, not him. Plus, there's the fact that Rendon withheld Amaranthine's troops from Ostagar. Bann Loren also would have demanded justice for the murder of his wife and son.

 

I also doubt Rendon trusted Loghain not to throw him under the wagon had Cailan not died. Rendon probably took measures to ensure that Loghain would stay true to their agreement. Or else some of Rendon's operatives would present evidence condemning Loghain. But I think Rendon always counted on Loghain to kill Cailan. Listen to how he speaks about Cailan when asked about Maric.
 

[Dai Grepher]

You know what?  I'm wrong.  There's no way that Loghain could have arranged for Eamon's poisoning before Ostagar.  While the timing of events with Loghain poisoning Eamon after Ostagar is dubious, Loghain was at Ostagar before the final battle. Unlike Duncan he couldn't have left on a recruiting trip.  The only way he could have met Jowan before Ostagar is if Jowan went to Ostagar, and the timing of that is even more problematic considering that Jowan and the mage warden leave the tower on the same day.  

 

He arranged the poisoning before he arrived at Ostagar, or perhaps while at Ostagar. Ser Donnel confirms that Eamon fell ill before the battle of Ostagar. So this is a fact. The unknown must be molded to fit the facts.

 

The time between Jowan's escape, his capture by Irminric, Loghain seizing them both, Jowan being sent to Redcliffe, and him poisoning Eamon must be quite lengthy. I might even say the Magi Origin is one of the earliest events in the game. Theoretically, the mage could stay at the circle with Duncan for another month before finally setting out to Ostagar, even if they sided with Jowan.

 

I'd say the origin closest to the events of Ostagar would have to be the Dalish Elf Origin, since the custom character contracts the taint. I would think the Cousland would be next, followed by City Elf. Then Magi, and then the dwarves. Not sure which comes first between dwarf noble and dwarf commoner.

 

I don't remember anything saying Duncan left the tower the same day, but it's possible they went to Redcliffe first, where Duncan met with Eamon. Or it's possible that Jowan was captured elsewhere, and Loghain left Ostagar to oversee that situation personally.