And look what happened: They made a boring character a total token and now there's interview after interview with Weekes and Gaider about "diversity!" like it should be more important than writing rich, deep characters
Oh, now I understand what your issue is; you've accidentially thought that tokenism means having a negative opinion about something. You don't like the character, but others do. No one's right or wrong, it's all just opinions.
I don't personally think all games should include all races, sexualities etc. as mandatory and including them in the game shouldn't come off forced either. Personally I don't see problem if game that is focused in one particular place and takes from it's culture and mythology does only have people from one race, seeing that you could see almost everyone in Witcher polish or East-European. However it becomes problem if majority of games are this way.. and there is quite many medieval Europe fantasy games with not much diversity in terms of races. Then it becomes seeking for those token characters, because lack of diversity in general. With situation like this it would be best if game developers did include diversity in their games or at least majority of them. There currently seems to be lack of diversity in minds of players and that's what players are comment about.
Though adding diversity to the game can feel like creating just token characters too if only purpose is to have diversity and not make good characters that fit to the story.
I'm not asking for perfection. I'm asking for interesting plots. Krem's War Table missions actually were somewhat interesting, and there was potential elsewhere (Krem is literally the first non-mage from Tevinter). The problem was that they seemed to think being trans was more interesting than actually doing the plot related things.
Again, did Patrick said he Made Krem transsexual to make him more interesting and expected people to like him because of this?I think it's bad writing when you make a boring character, make them trans, and then expect everyone to like them for the very virtue of being trans, even though we know sexuality is not what makes an person interesting.
I'm not asking for perfection. I'm asking for interesting plots. Krem's War Table missions actually were somewhat interesting, and there was potential elsewhere (Krem is literally the first non-mage from Tevinter). The problem was that they seemed to think being trans was more interesting than actually doing the plot related things.
Well I think that Krem works even without being trans character. I found him pretty nice character and someone who helps building Bull's character in the story too. I actually thought dialogue about him being trans was bit akwardly written, it felt out of place to ask him questions like that, so I didn't pick them, but still liked him as character. I don't think he's most intresting side character in DAI series, but not bad one either.
Again, did Patrick said he Made Krem transsexual to make him more interesting and expected people to like him because of this?
He said we wanted to make transgender character but all characters was locked in but we have Krem who wasn't fully done.I am not quoting because I can't find exact interview.
Again, did Patrick said he Made Krem transsexual to make him more interesting and expected people to like him because of this?
As I understand it, they wanted to write Krem this was because he was incomplete and they thought he was "boring". As I understand it, he was known as "Red shirt" and only was from Tevinter to show that it didn't matter to Bull. They threw that in there to make him "interesting" and because they wanted their token.
He said we wanted to make transgender character but all characters was locked in but we have Krem who wasn't fully done.I am not quoting because I can't find exact interview.
Making a boring character interesting is good writing. But Krem was not made interesting. The fact that BioWARE seemed to think being trans is "interesting" is very telling.
Thinking he was Boring doesn't mean they made him transsexual to make him more interesting.As I understand it, they wanted to write Krem this was because he was incomplete and they thought he was "boring". As I understand it, he was known as "Red shirt" and only was from Tevinter to show that it didn't matter to Bull. They threw that in there to make him "interesting" and because they wanted their token.
Well I think that Krem works even without being trans character. I found him pretty nice character and someone who helps building Bull's character in the story too. I actually thought dialogue about him being trans was bit akwardly written, it felt out of place to ask him questions like that, so I didn't pick them, but still liked him as character. I don't think he's most intresting side character in DAI series, but not bad one either.
This is exactly how I felt it's like asking Viviena and Solas why they are bold. I see no reason to. I think they focus to much on Krem dressing like a man and nothing much else. Like if male Inquisitor flirt with Sera she just "Not my think" and that's it we don't get 3 options "why you don't like man". But with Krem we get 3 options "why you look like a man".
As I understand it, they wanted to write Krem this was because he was incomplete and they thought he was "boring". As I understand it, he was known as "Red shirt" and only was from Tevinter to show that it didn't matter to Bull. They threw that in there to make him "interesting" and because they wanted their token.
In this case, he didn't make him transsexual to make him Interesting.
This thank you. I read the same but don't remember where.
This is exactly how I felt it's like asking Viviena and Solas why they are bold. I see no reason to. I think they focus to much on Krem dressing like a man and nothing much else. Like if male Inquisitor flirt with Sera she just "Not my think" and that's it we don't get 4 options "why you don't like man". But with Krem we get 4 options "why you look like a man".
No you get 3 options with a different tone behind them and the 4th one is to completely skip over the conversation
Yes you right thank you my mistake.
This is exactly how I felt it's like asking Viviena and Solas why they are bold. I see no reason to. I think they focus to much on Krem dressing like a man and nothing much else. Like if male Inquisitor flirt with Sera she just "Not my think" and that's it we don't get 4 options "why you don't like man". But with Krem we get 4 options "why you look like a man".
Are you a woman? (Wait, are you...I didn't realize...)
The inquisitor is confused and asking for clarification.
Why pass? (You don't have to pass for a man to be a mercenary.)
The inquisitor assumes it's an Aveline situation and decides to give some wisdom.
When did you know? (Did you always know?)
The inquisitor expresses knowledge and curiosity. (Did you always know you were a metal head?)
And the rest of your crew? (Who are the others?)
The inquisitor does not decide to delve deeper into matters of breast binding.
So two options with different flavors of asking why Krem looks like a man, one about when did Krem start looking like a man and one to move the conversation forward.
Thinking he was Boring doesn't mean they made him transsexual to make him more interesting.
I didn't read What he said, but If Patrick didn't say the reason was making Red shirt/Krem more interesting, I don't see why we should say otherwise.
Sorry, but I think you're wrong. They said he was boring and needed to be more interesting.
If this is what passes for good writing at BioWARE, they can count me out.
I asked If they said that, and you said 'As I understand'. Did they say it somewhere or Not?Sorry, but I think you're wrong. They said he was boring and needed to be more interesting.
If this is what passes for good writing at BioWARE, they can count me out.
So we can all agree that avoiding tokenism at all cost, is more important than accidentally having more diversity.
Chris & Wesker just looked silly in RE5, no argument there.
*SIGH*
Even though I'm all for it, I'm starting to dislike the word "representation." You know what? As a straight white woman, being inundated with stories about other straight white people for thirty years is getting BORING. If I want some other type of content I have to specifically go and seek it out, rather than it just being part of the typical line-up of things that are out there to consume and thrown in my face via constant advertising. And unfortunately, the genre of things that I generally prefer to watch, serious dramas -- to give an indication of how serious I like my shows, Law & Order (original) is one of my fav shows of all time -- are primarily filled with straight white people.
The actual real world isn't nearly as boring as some of the material that the entertainment industry puts out there. People are multi-colored, come in varying shapes, various levels of attractiveness, have widely differing interests, and react differently to conflict in their lives.
People should want representation in their media, if for no other reason than to make it more interesting.
[edit]
I've realized that this might sound like I consider these minorities as there for my entertainment, but I honestly don't mean it that way. However, I do think that including more minorities can have a positive enrichment on entertainment overall, which benefits everyone.
Now, representation, and the importance of it, doesn't necessarily have to reflect real-world ratios. It is hardly realistic to see impossibly beautiful people who are constantly put together, live in fab apartments/houses, and who -- let's face it -- probably would not be found in the job their character is in because they are played by actors that have to read lines in order to sound halfway coherent. If we go by US Census data, a show with 10 white people would only have 1-2 Hispanics and 1 African-American; the rest don't rank high enough to be included. This also varies widely by region of the country, and I imagine that there are areas where the population of non-whites is so low as to not merit their ratio-driven inclusion in a cast of only 10 characters. Does that mean they shouldn't be included at all? NO.
The only way for people to stop thinking of minorities -- racial as well as sexuality minorities -- as "other" is to include them so they are seen, in a non-stereotypical way, and people (the majority) get to know them AS PEOPLE.
It was really f-ing pathetic that the adorable Cheerios commercial with an interracial family became a news item. Seriously in 2014 this sh-t is going on? I've since seen another spot for Honey Maid featuring a male gay couple with their baby and another interracial family in their recent campaign "This is wholesome," referring to their food, but also the concept of these "wholesome," not aberrant, but just different, families. While it IS really nice, it should not be a big deal to see these things, and I shouldn't have to be happy that Honey Maid or whatever other company "took a chance" and gave the finger to bigots.
The only way to continue with progress is to have MORE progress, then it won't be a big deal and you won't think twice if you see a commercial with two dads cooing over their baby.
Modifié par nightscrawl, 06 juin 2015 - 03:27 .
So we can all agree that avoiding tokenism at all cost, is more important than having more diversity.
Chris & Wesker just looked silly in RE5, no argument there.
I think "at all cost" is a bit extreme... Unless of course the "token" person is portrayed so offensively that they are just an object of derision for the rest of the characters. Then of course it's not really a token, but something else entirely.
Still.
If there's a risk of not feeling alien being a token feature to some, I would rather not risk it.
Think about the dangers of things. Some of the griffons in The Witcher would be scared sh*tless if a random backdrop NPC were black.
I think more diversity is good ^^
Although it's absolute nonsense when games like Kingdom Come:Deliverance, a game set in 1400s Bohemia gets flamed for not having PoC.
Still.
If there's a risk of not feeling alien being a token feature to some, I would rather not risk it.
Think about the dangers of things. Some of the griffons in The Witcher would be scared sh*tless if a random backdrop NPC were black.
Would they run into a car and lock their doors? 
they probably would we are scaryWould they run into a car and lock their doors?
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