86 réponses à ce sujet

[raging_monkey]

https://www.youtube....h?v=4xyhVO-SWfM

favorite skit

[nightscrawl]

Still.
 
If there's a risk of not feeling alien being a token feature to some, I would rather not risk it.

Tokens are unfortunate, yes. But not doing anything at all is worse, IMO. That just perpetuates the state we're in now and doesn't get us anywhere.

Think about the dangers of things. Some of the griffons in The Witcher would be scared sh*tless if a random backdrop NPC were black.

I'm sorry, I really can't tell if you're joking or not...

[Dieb]

Actually, yes. All of it, pretty much.

 

I'm awfully sorry. And a little worried.

 

P.S.: I'm giving you a hard time here; "writing doesn't convey tone".

[c0bra951]

I don't personally think all games should include all races, sexualities etc. as mandatory and including them in the game shouldn't come off forced either. Personally I don't see problem if game that is focused in one particular place and takes from it's culture and mythology does only have people from one race, seeing that you could see almost everyone in Witcher polish or East-European. However it becomes problem if majority of games are this way.. and there is quite many medieval Europe fantasy games with not much diversity in terms of races. Then it becomes seeking for those token characters, because lack of diversity in general. With situation like this it would be best if game developers did include diversity in their games or at least majority of them. There currently seems to be lack of diversity in minds of players and that's what players are comment about.

 

Though adding diversity to the game can feel like creating just token characters too if only purpose is to have diversity and not make good characters that fit to the story.

 

For games set in ages past, the solution is to create games in settings where a different race is dominant, or more races interacted commonly.  A game set in medieval Europe would indeed come off as forced if modern takes on racial and sexual diversity were imposed on it.  How about an African setting?  Lots of diversity is possible there naturally.  Ubisoft did a great job with the Caribbean setting in AC 4: Black Flag. 

 

Besides, TW3 was created by Polish developers.  The SJW politics have little sway there, and they're simply going with the expected racial and social makeup of the world.  Like most people unencumbered by the aggressive political push, the whole thing never entered their minds.  Now that they hit the big time here, they're getting hammered with it after the fact.

[Hinjo]

I agree with one point - there should be more diversity in games.

The problem I have with Inquisition is execution. Being homosexual, black or anything else:

 

1) shouldn't be something that define a character (seriously - the only thing I remember about Krem is him/her being transsexual).

2) And a game really shouldn't tell as what should we think about it (such as: "This is Bob. He is a homosexual. Love him or be forever known as homophobic ****** who should suffer in hell." or in different case: "Kill that perverse filth!").

[DuskWanderer]

You wanna know a great example of Inqusition's diversity: Delrin Barris. Here was a guy who did his job, and was given his position as Knight-Commander because he did a good job. He was 100% black, and no one gave a crap. He earned it by kicking ass in Thereinfall, and the (terribly missed) opportunity on the War Table missions. 

 

I knew there would be problems when Gaider introduced Dorian as "He's gay, but he can kick ass." 

 

Barris kicked ass because he kicked ass. Power is equal to power, and nothing else. 

[9TailsFox]

I agree with one point - there should be more diversity in games.

The problem I have with Inquisition is execution. Being homosexual, black or anything else:

 

1) shouldn't be something that define a character (seriously - the only thing I remember about Krem is him/her being transsexual).

2) And a game really shouldn't tell as what should we think about it (such as: "This is Bob. He is a homosexual. Love him or be forever known as homophobic ****** who should suffer in hell." or in different case: "Kill that perverse filth!").

This.Problem Bioware made Dorian The gay and Krem The Transsexual. And Bioware made Sera just Sera. She is lesbian and no one cares, it's just small part of her character. Same ass Cass is straight.

[nightscrawl]

1) shouldn't be something that define a character (seriously - the only thing I remember about Krem is him/her being transsexual).

I thought it was a good opportunity to explore some other aspects of Tevinter society. For example, I didn't know that women didn't fight in Tevinter's military, which I find odd since there are female magisters (who are mages) with their own abilities. It was surprising because the military and para-military groups we've seen since DAO and DA2 have all had women among their ranks like it wasn't any big deal.

 

I also thought he provided some different insight into the whole slavery aspect, since we have Fenris and Dorian on the opposite ends of the spectrum, and Krem somewhat in the middle in relating his father's experience.

[9TailsFox]

I thought it was a good opportunity to explore some other aspects of Tevinter society. For example, I didn't know that women didn't fight in Tevinter's military, which I find odd since there are female magisters (who are mages) with their own abilities. It was surprising because the military and para-military groups we've seen since DAO and DA2 have all had women among their ranks like it wasn't any big deal.

 

I also thought he provided some different insight into the whole slavery aspect, since we have Fenris and Dorian on the opposite ends of the spectrum, and Krem somewhat in the middle in relating his father's experience.

If you talking about Mages in Tevinter. Magical power>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sexual orientation, gender........ even elf can get status.

 

And women don't serve in Tevinter military I think  it's retcon.

"Devera is a Tevinter city elf who is working as a servant to the Circle of Magi of Minrathous. During the events of the Fifth Blight she travels to Ferelden along with her master, Magister Caladrius."

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Devera

[AresKeith]

If you talking about Mages in Tevinter. Magical power>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sexual orientation, gender........ even elf can get status.

And women don't serve in Tevinter military I think it's retcon.
"Devera is a Tevinter city elf who is working as a servant to the Circle of Magi of Minrathous. During the events of the Fifth Blight she travels to Ferelden along with her master, Magister Caladrius."
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Devera

Women serve in the military, it's just different from men who serve

[raging_monkey]

Probably they are non direct combatants (medics, scouts, equalvent of EOD )

[Panda]

For games set in ages past, the solution is to create games in settings where a different race is dominant, or more races interacted commonly.  A game set in medieval Europe would indeed come off as forced if modern takes on racial and sexual diversity were imposed on it.  How about an African setting?  Lots of diversity is possible there naturally.  Ubisoft did a great job with the Caribbean setting in AC 4: Black Flag. 

 

Besides, TW3 was created by Polish developers.  The SJW politics have little sway there, and they're simply going with the expected racial and social makeup of the world.  Like most people unencumbered by the aggressive political push, the whole thing never entered their minds.  Now that they hit the big time here, they're getting hammered with it after the fact.

 

Yep of cource developer can choose place that is more diverse in general so easier to add diversity even games that are related to history. However for polish developer who wants to use mythology and area of their culture it can be harder task to add different races in the game in way that doesn't came of as adding token characters or making it offensive or sth like that. Like I'm from Finland and I think if someone did game on Finland's mythology it would be quite hard task to make game racially diverse. I don't know if it should be mandatory for games like this. Though in other hand it would be nice if there was more games that took different continents and cultures as main themes of medieval fantasy than Europe, I think if there were more games like this people would be much happier with diversity situation.

[Majestic Jazz]

Andraste_Reborn has the right idea.  The answer to this is more diversity, not less.  If people lose their minds over the mere presence of one gay man or one transgender man in a game, that flies in the face of 'no tokenism' requests.  If Bioware gets criticized for including even one person from a minority group and accused of 'forcing agendas down people's throats", it leads to this perceived 'tokenism'.  It's a case where they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

If they add no characters from these groups, they are accused of excluding groups (plus it goes against their stance as developers).

 

If the add only one or two characters from these groups, they are accused of tokenism and 'sloppy writing'.

 

If they add multiple characters from these groups, they are accused of 'forcing their agenda down players' throats' and alienating majority groups.

 

I just don't' see how they can win, so I just want them to do what they want to do and ignore these critiques.  Although, that's easy for me to say because what they want to do is what I want them to (finally), so I'm comfortable with their current stance.

 

Flame me all you guys want, but I am just going to say it like this.

 

While this "more diversity" in the workplace/movies/videogames can be annoying to all demographics, the MAIN demographic that this causes the most uproar over for is the hetrosexual white male demographic. This demographic has the "most to lose" with this whole push to diversity because it is taking an "element" away from them such as heterosexual vs homosexual ||| white vs black |||||| male vs female.

 

When I see the term SJW being thrown around, I bet most of the time it is being done by a heterosexual white male and not a female, not a gay person, and not a black person.

[DuskWanderer]

Flame me all you guys want, but I am just going to say it like this.

 

While this "more diversity" in the workplace/movies/videogames can be annoying to all demographics, the MAIN demographic that this causes the most uproar over for is the hetrosexual white male demographic. This demographic has the "most to lose" with this whole push to diversity because it is taking an "element" away from them such as heterosexual vs homosexual ||| white vs black |||||| male vs female.

 

When I see the term SJW being thrown around, I bet most of the time it is being done by a heterosexual white male and not a female, not a gay person, and not a black person.

 

Sounds to me like what you're saying is white male heterosexuals don't have valid opinions unless they match the opinions of females, gays, and blacks.

[Majestic Jazz]

Sounds to me like what you're saying is white male heterosexuals don't have valid opinions unless they match the opinions of females, gays, and blacks.

 

No, my point is that the demographic of the United States is changing. Back in the 1920s the United States was literally a white man's society. While in some ways that can be true today, at least today the makeup and balance of power is changing. Hell, in 2016 we could have our first female president (Hillary), meaning that for the span of 12 years, the United States has had a leader that wasn't a white male as it has been for the previous 43 presidents and who knows who could come after her......Hispanic president? Another female president? Gay white male president?Who knows It is said that by 2050, whites in America will actually be the minority and there would be a larger population of bi-racial children and Spanish will be spoken more prominently. 

 

When I hear someone say they hate how "diversity" is being pushed down their throats, my question to that is how does diversity ruin your experience? How does more females ruin a movie, videogame, or workplace environment for you? How does more gays ruin the experience for you or the workplace? How does more blacks/Hispanics ruin the movie, videogame, or workplace for you?

 

If you are open-minded and judge people for who they are within and not by who they love, or their skin tone, or their body parts, then where is the problem? 

 

And who cares if diversity is forced on us, if you aren't against diversity in the first place then it wouldn't be a problem whether it was forced on you or not. The only ones who complain or those who feel uncomfortable with the changing tones of America or the world in general. 

[daveliam]

@DuskWanderer

 

How did you get that interpretation from what Majestic Jazz said?  The point is that people will have different perspectives because of who they are.  Because straight white guys have had the most representation in games, they are the ones who 'lose' representation with increased diversity.  The % of straight white male characters will drop and some people (often within that demographic) see this as an attack on the group as a whole.  That's not to say that all straight white guys think this way.  In fact, I fell confident in saying that most straight white guys don't feel this way.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with people wanting to see representation in games.  I know that there will be people who come in a say, "Well it's not important to me.". And that's fine.  But on the same token, if you don't value something, it doesn't mean that others can't. 

 

It comes down the m&m example.  If you normally get 9 out of 10 m&m's, you will likely not look kindly on someone coming in and saying that you are now only going to get 7 out of 10 m&m's in order to give other people some as well.  But the fact is that you are still getting the majority of the candy. 

[9TailsFox]

Flame me all you guys want, but I am just going to say it like this.

 

While this "more diversity" in the workplace/movies/videogames can be annoying to all demographics, the MAIN demographic that this causes the most uproar over for is the hetrosexual white male demographic. This demographic has the "most to lose" with this whole push to diversity because it is taking an "element" away from them such as heterosexual vs homosexual ||| white vs black |||||| male vs female.

 

When I see the term SJW being thrown around, I bet most of the time it is being done by a heterosexual white male and not a female, not a gay person, and not a black person.

I am sorry I forget I am not allowed to have opinion because I am white male. I just go to Jade empire forums and complain game don't have white caucasian male and it offends me.

Spoiler

[Jaison1986]

@DuskWanderer

 

How did you get that interpretation from what Majestic Jazz said?  The point is that people will have different perspectives because of who they are.  Because straight white guys have had the most representation in games, they are the ones who 'lose' representation with increased diversity.  The % of straight white male characters will drop and some people (often within that demographic) see this as an attack on the group as a whole.  That's not to say that all straight white guys think this way.  In fact, I fell confident in saying that most straight white guys don't feel this way.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with people wanting to see representation in games.  I know that there will be people who come in a say, "Well it's not important to me.". And that's fine.  But on the same token, if you don't value something, it doesn't mean that others can't. 

 

It comes down the m&m example.  If you normally get 9 out of 10 m&m's, you will likely not look kindly on someone coming in and saying that you are now only going to get 7 out of 10 m&m's in order to give other people some as well.  But the fact is that you are still getting the majority of the candy. 

 

I think the problem is that, people get harassed for not wanting to get involved. How many times have I seen SJ activists belittle people for wanting to stay neutral. Their mentality is "if you don't get involved, you're part of the problem".

 

And the worse of all is that people in general don't seem to have a problem with that toxic attitude.

[leadintea]

As a black and gay man, I do have to say that DAI felt like it had a lot of tokenism, mainly regarding race. For the homosexual content in DAI, I actually had no problems with it and I felt that it was handled quite well, even in Dorian's and Krem's case, despite how many people like to ****** about it. Race, on the other hand, was a bit of a problem to me. In the previous DA games, we had a number of darker skinned characters - not a lot, but they were there. Come DAI, a mere 3 years after the ending of DAII, it feels as though the entire world has been inundated by black folk which makes absolutely no sense seeing how little they were in the previous DAs. I'm all for equality and diversity and all, but it was clear that Bioware just inserted a huge amount of black people in DAI to score brownie points with the community and not because they put any thought into race and how it interacts with their world. I mean, it would've been easy to create a Chasind village and populate it, as well as the area around it, with black people or maybe create a port town with a higher amount of racial diversity because of their trade relations with other nations, but to take the previously mainly white Fereldan and fill it with a disproportionate amount of black people is just Tokenism and it really brings me out of the immersion of the world.

 

Of course, that isn't to say that I don't appreciate what Bioware is doing. I liked that they handled Vivienne and Barris well without commenting on their race and it's great to see that they placed some thought into racial diversity, but I would've loved for them to have made it a gradual change throughout the series instead of the massive upheaval it came across as in DAI.

[MattH]

"In Sleeping Dogs, an excellent game taking place in Hong Kong, all the characters the player encounters are Chinese. Could there be white characters in Hong Kong? Of course, but this game didn’t include them just for the sake of having some white characters. In that same vein, it feels contrived to include various races just to avoid making people feel left out. If there were a compelling reason to include a person of visually different origin (a trader from afar who Geralt needs to probe for information, a foreign soldier he needs to help), that could work. 

A poor comparison.

 

Sleeping Dogs takes place in a real life location, whereas both The Witcher and Dragon Are are completely unique fantasy worlds. I honestly don't see why people need any justification for including people of colour in a fantasy setting. It's fantasy. People can take magic, dragons and tons of mystical lore, but get high rate over including a poc  without a traceable origin?

[9TailsFox]

No, my point is that the demographic of the United States is changing. Back in the 1920s the United States was literally a white man's society. While in some ways that can be true today, at least today the makeup and balance of power is changing. Hell, in 2016 we could have our first female president (Hillary), meaning that for the span of 12 years, the United States has had a leader that wasn't a white male as it has been for the previous 43 presidents and who knows who could come after her......Hispanic president? Another female president? Gay white male president?Who knows It is said that by 2050, whites in America will actually be the minority and there would be a larger population of bi-racial children and Spanish will be spoken more prominently. 

 

When I hear someone say they hate how "diversity" is being pushed down their throats, my question to that is how does diversity ruin your experience? How does more females ruin a movie, videogame, or workplace environment for you? How does more gays ruin the experience for you or the workplace? How does more blacks/Hispanics ruin the movie, videogame, or workplace for you?

 

If you are open-minded and judge people for who they are within and not by who they love, or their skin tone, or their body parts, then where is the problem? 

 

And who cares if diversity is forced on us, if you aren't against diversity in the first place then it wouldn't be a problem whether it was forced on you or not. The only ones who complain or those who feel uncomfortable with the changing tones of America or the world in general. 

So another USA = all world. In my country president is female so what? Life go on same as president is male. All people are white. You can see few black in major city's that's it. How does diversity ruin your experience? "Magic must serve men, not rule them" I expect Divine not be a mage. When I go to meat Arishok I don't expect it to be dwarf. If I go to some city I don't expect 1 quarter to be white 1 quarter black 1 quarter Chinis. If I go to Rivain I expect to to see majority black people and no white at all but this is Bioware so of-course we will.

 

People from Poland who all white make game based on Eurapa and are accused being racist. It would be funny if they wouldn't be serious.

[DuskWanderer]

No, my point is that the demographic of the United States is changing. Back in the 1920s the United States was literally a white man's society. While in some ways that can be true today, at least today the makeup and balance of power is changing. Hell, in 2016 we could have our first female president (Hillary), meaning that for the span of 12 years, the United States has had a leader that wasn't a white male as it has been for the previous 43 presidents and who knows who could come after her......Hispanic president? Another female president? Gay white male president?Who knows It is said that by 2050, whites in America will actually be the minority and there would be a larger population of bi-racial children and Spanish will be spoken more prominently. 

 

When I hear someone say they hate how "diversity" is being pushed down their throats, my question to that is how does diversity ruin your experience? How does more females ruin a movie, videogame, or workplace environment for you? How does more gays ruin the experience for you or the workplace? How does more blacks/Hispanics ruin the movie, videogame, or workplace for you?

 

If you are open-minded and judge people for who they are within and not by who they love, or their skin tone, or their body parts, then where is the problem? 

 

And who cares if diversity is forced on us, if you aren't against diversity in the first place then it wouldn't be a problem whether it was forced on you or not. The only ones who complain or those who feel uncomfortable with the changing tones of America or the world in general. 

 

"If you are open-minded..." sounds like a sweet gesture. However, by whining and railing about white male heterosexuals, you are guilty of the things you espouse. 

 

Diversity ruins the experience because it tells someone that being of a different color is more important than the skills they bring. You speak about Hillary Clinton, you are aware of the multitude of scandals surrounding her, those that question her competence or her ability to demonstrate success. Are you saying that matters less than the fact that she is a woman? It is more important that she be a woman, rather than that she be competent?

[DuskWanderer]

@DuskWanderer

 

How did you get that interpretation from what Majestic Jazz said?  The point is that people will have different perspectives because of who they are.  Because straight white guys have had the most representation in games, they are the ones who 'lose' representation with increased diversity.  The % of straight white male characters will drop and some people (often within that demographic) see this as an attack on the group as a whole.  That's not to say that all straight white guys think this way.  In fact, I fell confident in saying that most straight white guys don't feel this way.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with people wanting to see representation in games.  I know that there will be people who come in a say, "Well it's not important to me.". And that's fine.  But on the same token, if you don't value something, it doesn't mean that others can't. 

 

It comes down the m&m example.  If you normally get 9 out of 10 m&m's, you will likely not look kindly on someone coming in and saying that you are now only going to get 7 out of 10 m&m's in order to give other people some as well.  But the fact is that you are still getting the majority of the candy. 

 

I got the impression because that is what he said. 

[daveliam]

No he didn't.  That's your interpretation of his statement.  Quote where he said that straight white men's opinions don't matter unless they align with women and gay people.  Show me where if 'that is what he said'.  If you can't, then it's your interpretation of what he actually said.

[Vortex13]

I am a fan of science fiction and fantasy, I tend to gravitate more towards the sci-fi end of the spectrum, but I find both genres enjoyable. But do you all know why I find them enjoyable? Its because I get to go and see or experience things that are not possible in the real world, not because I want to see political/social issues represented in a futuristic or magical setting.

 

 

I could care less about Krem's transgender backstory, I want to go and talk to that Awakened Darkspawn over there. I don't give a flying leap about Ashley's strained relationship with her grandfather, I want to go and see more of the Rachni. Etc. A character that has struggled with their sexuality, or who has rose above the challenges set against them being a minority or a woman are nowhere as interesting to me as is the non-human/alien elements of these settings. I can go and turn on the news, or go browse Tumbler if I wanted to see LGTG/minority/heterosexual/male-female issues. I can't do the same if I want to see more of that demon comprised of the world's collective fears, or that alien that can see gamma rays. That white heterosexual male with daddy issues <<<<<<<<<<<< that AI that swims through cyberspace and sees the world as 1s and 0s (IMO).

 

 

If we are talking about token characters that need more representation I would say we should be giving the non-human elements more of the spotlight; you know the things that actually make a sci-fi or fantasy setting what they are.