766 réponses à ce sujet

[yarpenthemad21]

Disclaimer: I have not tested Cool Bears, and am not making a specific claim in this regards.

If I remember correctly, with other DOT abilities like Walking Bomb and Toxic Cloud, it did tick every two seconds, but for double the DOT rate (meaning it was actually correct). Could Cool Beats also be this way?

Maybe walking bomb is different but from what I know every dot ticks every two seconds.
Last time I've played alchemist with toxic cloud poison damage from it dealed around 200+ damage, so around 50% damage so around the value of this in tooltip. Ticks were definitely not every seconds, more like 2.
With burn the same situtation, just check Immolate, it has the same dot as direct damage (400%). When non crit both values are pretty much the same.
For me DoT from Cool Beats is in the region of 500-550 damage,
I have staff of dragon (81 damage, 41 attack), 54 willpower (with passive bonus let it be +30 attack) -> around 140 as 100%, add to it some bonus damage from passive (at least 10%, aggresive appregio I don't know how much) and it will give you this 500 damage quite easily at 300% damage ability.
I hit with hot licks for around 700, so I looks quite right that CB is ticking for this 300% for I will say every 2 seconds. Maybe it's something like 5 ticks in 8 seconds (like with burn) but I'm sure it's not 8 ticks of it.

[Proto]

This is the thing I like with Drasca. When he tells you something is wrong, he's usually right 99.9% of the time. He knows his ****

 

I will second this. I don't think anyone questions Drasca's knowledge of game mechanics. 

 

Cool Beats just happens to be that 0.1%. 

[Drasca]

It doesn't tick every second, but Long Solo (+4s duration) is enough to make 8 ticks iirc

and yeah, not 400% for PC. It's 750% weapon damage when enemies are <2m. That's significant damage, actually.

 

And potentially multiplied by critical damage bonus.. the base of which being 40% or a 1.4 multiplier. With two SCDB rings, that's 80%. With Mindchill fully upgraded to CDB, it is +51%, so that's 131%. With dexterity amulet it is another 10%.

 

Mindchill and dexterity, it is +141%, or a 2.41 multiplier.

Dragon staff, having no weapon upgrades or inherent CDB would be at 90% total with rings and amulet, or a 1.9x multipler for crits.

 

I'm not even going to get into flanking or elemental vulnerabilities, or the other stuff involved right now (attack power), but pointing out how PC can crit and that crit is a huge bonus vs non crit.

 

2.41 x 750% -->  1807.5% weapon damage

1.9 x 750% -->  1425% weapon damage

 

Double these for electric vulnerable, half for resistent for example.

[Proto]

edit: Thanks Angelus_de_mortiel, every 2 seconds for 6 7 ticks (tested ingame), hitting for a full 3600% weapon damage then.

 

This is the greatness of Cool Beats. If you have the ability to run through the whole map and just tag everything, that is.

 

With my non-Snakebite / Drasca level stats I can and often do this in PUGS and groups with highly promoted players. After a game or two they start getting doors while I just clear the whole zone. Its great because you don't have to worry about things sneaking past you. Everything just ice explodes.

[Wavebend]

I went ingame and tested it with inquisition staff.

 

7 ticks with long solo. So apparently this means 600% * 7 = 4200% and not 3600% as stated previously

[Drasca]

I will second this. I don't think anyone questions Drasca's knowledge of game mechanics.

 

Thanks, but people question this all the time but they're still wrong. PS, I did the calculations for CB, and the final damage is 4200% 2100% weapon damage if it lasts all 12 seconds (7 ticks), not including the AoE damage involved (or variations on other damage bonuses)-- assuming it hits of course.

 

The interface sucks on KB&M for CB, which is the biggest hurdle to using it. Enemies dying before it can tick all 7 times is the next hurdle. Realistically it'll either miss (0 damage), hit once 300%, tick twice 600%, or otherwise lethal damage will occur before ticking 7 times. Long solo passive is not required in team situations. Solo-- maybe, and even then it is questionable.

 

https://www.youtube....aU7sCTyVH0bzqvg

 

This is a playlist of stuff dying from today alone. Enemies die very very fast, if not instantly. 

Modifié par Drasca, 13 juin 2015 - 10:23 .

[Drasca]

This is the greatness of Cool Beats. If you have the ability to run through the whole map and just tag everything, that is.

 

With my non-Snakebite / Drasca level stats I can and often do this in PUGS and groups with highly promoted players. After a game or two they start getting doors while I just clear the whole zone. Its great because you don't have to worry about things sneaking past you. Everything just ice explodes.

 

Big if. Though honestly, when I have the option of being carried, I take it. Plenty of teammates can confirm I am lazy.

[Hellsteeth30]

I need me some generic goons.

I might actually play more if I didn't have to do so much work.

[yarpenthemad21]

I went ingame and tested it with inquisition staff.
 
7 ticks with long solo. So apparently this means 600% * 7 = 4200% and not 3600% as stated previously

I've tested it also running like moron with Inquisition staff on routine.

7 ticks with long solo. First tick at zero time, 6 other in 12 seconds, so every 2 seconds.
But not for 600% , for 300%.
Just look at hot licks damage, Cool beats damage is lower, not higher, so theory that it ticks with twice the damage is just wrong.
Passives, mostly aggressive appregio mess up tests but still I would feel the difference between 600% and 400%... How it's even possible with my gear to get 500 damage ticks when you state it's 600%..., attack% does not work at all on it?

[Drasca]

I've tested it also running like moron with Inquisition staff on routine.

7 ticks with long solo. First tick at zero time, 6 other in 12 seconds, so every 2 seconds.
But not for 600% , for 300%.
Just look at hot licks damage, Cool beats damage is lower, not higher, so theory that it ticks with twice the damage is just wrong.
Passives, mostly aggressive appregio mess up tests but still I would feel the difference between 600% and 400%... How it's even possible with my gear to get 500 damage ticks when you state it's 600%..., attack% does not work at all on it?

 

Interesting. Maybe the stated damage is wrong then. Not the first time the ability description is wrong. So it should be 2100% then?

[Wavebend]

I've tested it also running like moron with Inquisition staff on routine.

7 ticks with long solo. First tick at zero time, 6 other in 12 seconds, so every 2 seconds.
But not for 600% , for 300%.
Just look at hot licks damage, Cool beats damage is lower, not higher, so theory that it ticks with twice the damage is just wrong.
Passives, mostly aggressive appregio mess up tests but still I would feel the difference between 600% and 400%... How it's even possible with my gear to get 500 damage ticks when you state it's 600%..., attack% does not work at all on it?

 

Looks like I'm wrong again.

 

300% * 7 = 2100% weapon damage for a new instance of Cool Beats, and 1800% if DoT is refreshed (instead of 4200% and 3600%)

 

From http://forum.bioware...mbat-mechanics/

 

It would follow that all DoT abilities in this game that say (x)% every second would actually be (x)% every 2 second, and not (2x)% every 2 second

 

This actually changes a lot of things, because DoT has no crit%/flank% bonus dmg (and PC does) and the damage is overall much closer than initially thought: 750% spammable + crit vs 1800% on average

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

I've tested it also running like moron with Inquisition staff on routine.

7 ticks with long solo. First tick at zero time, 6 other in 12 seconds, so every 2 seconds.
But not for 600% , for 300%.
Just look at hot licks damage, Cool beats damage is lower, not higher, so theory that it ticks with twice the damage is just wrong.
Passives, mostly aggressive appregio mess up tests but still I would feel the difference between 600% and 400%... How it's even possible with my gear to get 500 damage ticks when you state it's 600%..., attack% does not work at all on it?

 
Which was why I disclaimed that I had not tested this... I was not sure it it ticked every 2 seconds for twice the damage.

This kind of inconsistency is also why I have a major gripe with DOT in this game. It should be ticking once per second for the listed damage (in this example, 300% damage), or once every two seconds for double the listed damage (again, 600% in this example). As you stated, some skills seem to do the latter, some don't.

I have not tested Toxic Cloud since it's "buff", but it seemed to me that the "buff" was not a "buff" at all, but merely correcting the numbers to what it actually did in game. At the time I made my Hunter video, Toxic Cloud claimed to deal 15% damage per second DOT and the upgrade, Contact Poison, claimed to deal a separate 25% damage per second DOT. However, with the Bow of the Griffon at 150+25 base damage, I was seeing two separate damage ticks every two seconds for about 175 damage (meaning it was 50% damage per second). Keep in mind I had about four total mage promotions from my Necromancer, and nothing more.
 

Spoiler

(Skip to 1:10)

 
Walking Bomb was the same in this regard, except it would deal two ticks immediately, then one every two seconds for double the listed damage per second. At the time of making my Necromancer video, Walking Bomb listed 200% damage per second DOT. I have a staff that did 50 base damage I believe, and would deal around 200 damage per every two seconds (equating to 200% damage per second).
 

Spoiler

(Skip to 4:35)

 
Based upon these two example, I assumed it was just the DOT mechanic. I guess Cool Beats really got the short end there...
 

Much like Killer Set, the "damage bonus" % in the skill's description is not an additive 35% or 400% weapon damage.
It's a multiplier that adds (Skill damage * multiplier) to the base skill damage. Does that make sense?

I also want to note that there are some inconsistencies with that. The formula aznricepuff deduced was perfect, but the coding of "Bonus Damage" is not. My go-to example of this is Wrath of Heaven. The bonus damage from it's upgrade is additive to the base, meaning Wrath of Heaven deals 700% damage (400% base + 300% bonus), not 1200% damage (400% base * 300% bonus multiplier). During the making of the very first Templar guide, I had Soulkisser that was doing 85+15 base damage, I was seeing 700 for the damage quite consistently against demons.

 

Spoiler

(Skip to 6:35)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFgC7tEzvMo

 

Again, the formula is correct, and in this case is perfect, but I want to make a little caveat that it is not ironclad when it comes to the inconsistencies of some abilities.

[Yumi]

Another thing I learned in this thread:


Thunderdomes turn off girl gamers more than a 55 gallon drum of lube turns off real girls.

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/B005MR3IVO
[read the reviews they are hilarious]

[yarpenthemad21]

Interesting. Maybe the stated damage is wrong then. Not the first time the ability description is wrong. So it should be 2100% then?

Yes it's more 2100% with 300% on tick. Virtuoso passive mess up damage a lot but still to get 500 damage on 600% ability I need 83 damage...
so just dragon staff base damage.
where is attack? around 70+%?

WIth 300% I need 160 base damage, so and I calculated my gear and it gives around 140. Add 10-20% bonus damage from passive and you have result.

[Wavebend]

IMO, where CB really shines is when you apply it to multiple enemies. Say a group of 3 enemies, then it hits for 300% + (3 * 150%) = 750% every 2 second for that group, which makes it damage-wise just as efficient as PC in those scenarios.

[Hellsteeth30]

Another thing I learned in this thread:


Thunderdomes turn off girl gamers more than a 55 gallon drum of lube turns off real girls.

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/B005MR3IVO
[read the reviews they are hilarious]

"Is it kosher?"

"No it's used for porking"

That broke my lolometer.

On another note, 55 gallons is a little ambitious.

[Wavebend]

It doesn't tick every second, but Long Solo (+4s duration) is enough to make 8 ticks iirc

edit: Thanks Angelus_de_mortiel, every 2 seconds for 6 7 ticks (tested ingame), hitting for a full 3600% 4200% 2100% weapon damage then.

 

and yeah, not 400% for PC. It's 750% weapon damage when enemies are <2m. That's significant damage, actually.

 

I don't think I ever edited a post so many times.

[yarpenthemad21]

IMO, where CB really shines is when you apply it to multiple enemies. Say a group of 3 enemies, then it hits for 300% + (3 * 150%) = 750% every 2 second for that group

Yes, that's why this skill is either take it with upgrade and use on stacked groups or just ignore it.
To get best result you need on that group cast it on few targets to multiple those dots, it's a kind of DoT stacking I would say, but in different manner.
Single Cool beats is "poor" mans firewall. Fire wall just gives 200% damage burn for everyone + fear. Pretty much the same result.

Which was why I disclaimed that I had not tested this... I was not sure it it ticked every 2 seconds for twice the damage.

This kind of inconsistency is also why I have a major gripe with DOT in this game. It should be ticking once per second for the listed damage (in this example, 300% damage), or once every two seconds for double the listed damage (again, 600% in this example). As you stated, some skills seem to do the latter, some don't.

I have not tested Toxic Cloud since it's "buff", but it seemed to me that the "buff" was not a "buff" at all, but merely correcting the numbers to what it actually did in game. At the time I made my Hunter video, Toxic Cloud claimed to deal 15% damage per second DOT and the upgrade, Contact Poison, claimed to deal a separate 25% damage per second DOT. However, with the Bow of the Griffon at 150+25 base damage, I was seeing two separate damage ticks every two seconds for about 175 damage (meaning it was 50% damage per second). Keep in mind I had about four total mage promotions from my Necromancer, and nothing more.
 
 
Walking Bomb was the same in this regard, except it would deal two ticks immediately, then one every two seconds for double the listed damage per second.

I'm just talking from my experience and basic math formula. If damage on DoT will be doubled I would feel it. Immolate damage is the same on direct and DoT part, some time ago I had even some post around it with Drasca, something with Immolate vs Fire mine on ele and numbers where there, definitively not 800% damage dot on immmolate. Cool beats for me is 500 damage and I can't see how it could lead to 600% ability.
It's not really rocket science I would say. Chain lightning with ring has 300% damage. It's 500+ ish damage, more when shocked what's obvious.
Poison damage on my alchemist is lame, around 200+ so it fits this 50% damage formula (which I agree with you wasn't a buff, just fixed tooltip).
As for the walking bomb.
It hits twice at start, yes it's true.
But this skill isn't just dot, it's direct damage + dot.
I think that in general tooltip is messed up on Walking bomb and direct damage is the same as DoT damage. It should be tested but from my observation for sure I know:
1) Both damage values at starts are pretty much the same.
2) You can crit with one of this values, so you get crit and normal damage at start. Probably those 2 ticks aren't really 2 ticks, but applying walking bomb explosion + dot. Explosion can crit.
3) If you look at explosions you can also see that other targets will be damaged at start twice, probably in the same way as first hit, but I'm not sure with crits on explosions.
4) DoT damage is every 2 seconds.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

1) Both damage values at starts are pretty much the same.
2) You can crit with one of this values, so you get crit and normal damage at start. Probably those 2 ticks aren't really 2 ticks, but applying walking bomb explosion + dot. Explosion can crit.
3) If you look at explosions you can also see that other targets will be damaged at start twice, probably in the same way as first hit, but I'm not sure with crits on explosions.
4) DoT damage is every 2 seconds.

 

I am not claiming that it can not happen, but I have never observed a critical hit from the two initial ticks from Walking Bomb. The Explosion, yes, but that is absolutely not DOT and why I did not mention it.

However, my point was not the nature of DOT versus direct damage. By point was #4 of what you said. Yes, the DOT ticks every two seconds, as I said. However, it ticks for double the listed DOT every two seconds, contrary to Cool Beats. With 50 base damage, you see ticks for 200 damage, which is 400% base damage every two seconds (e.g. 200% damage per second). That was the case with Walking Bomb, and where I derived my initial question.

[Drasca]

I am not claiming that it can not happen, but I have never observed a critical hit from the two initial ticks from Walking Bomb.

 

You guys really fail to read.

 

The initial hit from walking bomb being able to crit is well documented... guess where:

 

Walking Bomb

• Applies a DoT effect on affected targets, which ticks 6 times over 10 seconds. ability_multiplier for each tick is 200%.
• In addition to the DoT effect, Walking Bomb deals additional damage to affected targets at certain times:
  • On initial application: Deals 200% weapon damage to the target. This damage is not counted as DoT, so it can trigger critical hits and benefits from flanking. If upgraded with Virulent, this damage is not applied when the effect spreads to the second round of targets (in other words this damage is only applied to the first, primary target when Walking Bomb is initially cast).
  • On expiration/detonation: Deals 200% weapon damage to the target and all enemies around the target in a large AoE. This damage does not seem to be counted as DoT, since it benefits from flanking. However it is unclear if it can trigger trigger critical hits as well (I have never seen it do so despite many rounds of testing).
• Can be manually detonated to trigger the explosion (and spread the effect if the ability is upgraded with Virulent). If upgraded with Virulent, manual detonation is not possible after Walking Bomb has spread to the second round of targets).

 

 

http://forum.bioware...mbat-mechanics/

 

Note the specific values have changed since that is for SP and this is MP and Luke made balance changes. The mechanic remains the same.

[yarpenthemad21]

I am not claiming that it can not happen, but I have never observed a critical hit from the two initial ticks from Walking Bomb. The Explosion, yes, but that is absolutely not DOT and why I did not mention it.

However, my point was not the nature of DOT versus direct damage. By point was #4 of what you said. Yes, the DOT ticks every two seconds, as I said. However, it ticks for double the listed DOT every two seconds, contrary to Cool Beats. With 50 base damage, you see ticks for 200 damage, which is 400% base damage every two seconds (e.g. 200% damage per second). That was the case with Walking Bomb, and where I derived my initial question.

Minutes ago I was leveling up my necro, threatening match, I've had 7 level, so just upgraded walking bomb and way to it.
Staff of dragon, (81 damage base, +41% attack) + passives on way gives +6% attack and my promotions gives 22% attack and armor gives 4% attack
So my "base" damage for all other calculation is 81 * 1.73 = 140
And from my observations in this match my average auto attack vs venatori was dealing 140 damage. Crit around 195..when full mana on fresh target, there are some passives on way which can boost damage.
My average damage from Walking bomb was from 370 to 400 damage. As we know at start we have double "ticks" so it was 2 x 370-400 damage.
I have around ~30 crit chance and I've seen several times crit damage from this initiral cast of walking bomb. Not both ticks, only one but it was obvious that one part(tick) of initial walking bomb can crit. I've have never seen explosions do crit damage.
I'm using walking bomb ring which makes tooltip looks stupid (233% per sec and 683% explosions).
With my base damage 600% would be close to 840-900 damage and I've never seen that amount, every explosion and damage done by walking bomb was around this 370-400. Still as I said earlier when target explodes spreading walking bomb, other targets also gets this "2 ticks" (probably damage from explosion and start of DoT), I've never seen crits in this situtaion (so initial damage is exception) and damage was around 370-400.
This amount of damage fits more with 233% of damage listed in tooltip as damage per second. Passives gives 5% bonus damage every 10% mana used, so let say 20%
so calculation would be
140 * 2.33 * 1.2 = 391
Ticks of DoT damage as every 2 second, one tick for this 370-400 damage at time. So I think that your assumption made around Walking Bomb isn't right. Numbers just does not add.

You can't ignore +attack bonus in formula for DoT damage because how would you explain higher damage on ppl like drasca from DoT? I would make no sense to ignore in DoT formula for some strange reason every bonus leaving only base damage.

[Yumi]

"Is it kosher?"

"No it's used for porking"

That broke my lolometer.

On another note, 55 gallons is a little ambitious.

Well I'm pretty sure it doesn't spoil, so I guess if you thought the world was ending and never wanted to run out....

Part of me wants to buy it just to have as a conversation piece at my home.

[Drasca]

You can't ignore +attack bonus in formula for DoT damage because how would you explain higher damage on ppl like drasca from DoT? I would make no sense to ignore in DoT formula for some strange reason every bonus leaving only base damage.

 

Note Mortiel's notoriously bad at math and combat formula understanding (and most of BSN for that matter). The +attack bonus portion does factor in. However, so do other 'damage multiplier' aka damage bonus factors from other sources such as passives (power overwhelming, of the dead, etc) too within the damage formula listed in the link above.

[yarpenthemad21]

Note Mortiel's notoriously bad at math and combat formula understanding (and most of BSN for that matter). The +attack bonus portion does factor in. However, so do other 'damage multiplier' aka damage bonus factors from other sources such as passives (power overwhelming, of the dead, etc) too within the damage formula listed in the link above.

Yes you are right. DoT damage is just a normal damage calculated with normal formula just without flanking and crit damage. Even flanking bonus is just treated the same as crit damage bonus...
Still whatever. Walking bomb works in the way as listed in this old thread you have quoted.
This calculation also proves other things (and makes my test on Lunge and slash even more useful) that balance changes and ability rings don't work well.

Walking bomb now has 150% damage. 30% of it is 50% but tooltip displays this strange 233% . And based on math 233% is definitely more likely to be real value instead of 200% with "proper" working ring just broken tooltip.
In general tooltips does not lie in terms of values, sometimes they just list additional bonus damage as something different or like with walking bomb list some not existing "explosion" damage. I think that ability rings bonus is hardcoded, which would explain why some does not work (just bug with wrong values, IDs, etc), so gives 30%, some 33.(3)% etc
So to sum up, ability rings works on base ability value but not this changed by balance changes, probably because balance changed skills are taken from Bioware servers and rings just work locally.
This makes rings for longshot, walking bomb giving "more", and those for buffed abilities like Lunge and slash, explosive shot etc giving less. It fits my tests perfectly.

[Hellsteeth30]

Well I'm pretty sure it doesn't spoil, so I guess if you thought the world was ending and never wanted to run out....

Part of me wants to buy it just to have as a conversation piece at my home.

I think we'd best step out.

We're interrupting a mathematics seminar. Real talk going on here.