766 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellsteeth30]

I noticed "ENDS TONIGHT" in the title now.

Pretty sure something has to start before it ends.

All we've had so far is a glorified calculator battle and pre-match banter.

[Gya]

People recommend Cruel Redemption for Perilous because of it's HoH ability, you genius. It makes the Archer more survivable in absence of a barrier pet. It can also hold a crit chance mod for underpromoted players who want to make better use of 'Opportunity knocks'.

And when you consistently run around hugging enemies with the Hunter, then the Griffon bow can out-DPS the Dragon bow. Your calculations mean nothing when you ignore the abilities of the weapons in question.

I lol'd.

[Pork]

I noticed "ENDS TONIGHT" in the title now.

Pretty sure something has to start before it ends.

All we've had so far is a glorified calculator battle and pre-match banter.

 

Snakebite has entered. Drasca has not. So snakebite will be declared the winner if drasca doesn't make a video.

[yarpenthemad21]

People recommend Cruel Redemption for Perilous because of it's HoH ability, you genius. It makes the Archer more survivable in absence of a barrier pet. It can also hold a crit chance mod for underpromoted players who want to make better use of 'Opportunity knocks'.
 
And when you consistently run around hugging enemies with the Hunter, then the Griffon bow can out-DPS the Dragon bow. Your calculations mean nothing when you ignore the abilities of the weapons in question.

Cruel redemeption on archer makes archer useless. Instead of killing targets as fast as possible your enemies will just laugh at your longshot. So instead of dead enemies you have aggroed on you enemies.
I prefer killing them instead of trying to survive with 1% heal on hit. I need to hit 8 times to get the same amount of healing as killing one target with dragon bow. For me choice is obvious. I won't comment on damage part, 139 vs 176 ...

As for the griffon. First you loose heal on kill, so you loose ring slot. For me it's 20% crit damage.
Second you loose this 7% crit chance.
Third dragon bow has for 17% higher base damage, so you loose this 1.17 modifier.
What you get? Chance to hit up to 3 times with awkward griffon bow attack, with ridiculous spread working only when not needed and in point blank range.

I would say that buffing explosive shot, leaping shot, general auto attack single target damage and 4th ability (trap, daggers etc) gives me more than some awkward mechanic of griffon. I've played with this bow before having dragon bow and still after few games I've changed to Punch of the maker. Griffon spread is just ridiculous so you need to stand very close. It's like shotgun with 0.5 m range. In general I prefer to avoid being "that" close to units where I can get hit by every melee attack they have.
Based on my observation skills vs autoattack is around 60% to 40% on FC map and 70% - 30% on normal maps. I would need to constantly hit 3 times to make griffon worth it.
Still main reason is higher ability damage and "free" slot on rings.

[Drasca]

Cruel redemeption on archer makes archer useless. Instead of killing targets as fast as possible your enemies will just laugh at your longshot. So instead of dead enemies you have aggroed on you enemies.

 

Personally I think of it contextually based upon how much cunning the player has. At very high cunning or guaranteed crit builds, you can put a lot of critical damage bonus on CR (81% iirc) and CR ring and LS ring.. performing some very high longshot damage.

 

In general Dragon Bow is recommended, but there are special cases for CR, and even Trepanner's. Both CR and Dragon Bow are easy to get, so they're easily recommended. CR can be upgraded with other things too, so it remains nice overall.

 

I'd need to run the numbers between Dragon Bow and CR again, but last time I tried they provided comparable damage at very high crit chance.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

I prefer killing them instead of trying to survive with 1% heal on hit. I need to hit 8 times to get the same amount of healing as killing one target with dragon bow. For me choice is obvious. I won't comment on damage part, 139 vs 176 ...

Third dragon bow has for 17% higher base damage, so you loose this 1.17 modifier.

I'd note that I largely agree with you, but wanted to point out a couple of things:

Cruel Redemption has 1% HoH for abilities as well, including Leaping Shot and Long Shot upgraded with Archer's Lance, both hit multiple times. HoK is still overall superior for a DPS build in my opinion, but HoH still deserves a fair representation.

Secondly, don't neglect the 41% attack bonus on the Griffon bow. Also note that he specified it is superior at close range, which is theoretically true. It is also technically the only "AoE" bow in MP, it's just unwieldy as you say.

The biggest factor here, however, is that outside of pure theory craft, this largely depends on what bow RNGesus had blessed you with... If Griffon is the best you have, it's the best you have.

[Pork]

Congrats snakebite! Its 00.20 GMT, deadline has passed for entries. Since Drasca didn't even post an entry, snakebite wins by default!

[Cirvante]

Cruel redemeption on archer makes archer useless. Instead of killing targets as fast as possible your enemies will just laugh at your longshot. So instead of dead enemies you have aggroed on you enemies.
I prefer killing them instead of trying to survive with 1% heal on hit. I need to hit 8 times to get the same amount of healing as killing one target with dragon bow. For me choice is obvious. I won't comment on damage part, 139 vs 176 ...

As for the griffon. First you loose heal on kill, so you loose ring slot. For me it's 20% crit damage.
Second you loose this 7% crit chance.
Third dragon bow has for 17% higher base damage, so you loose this 1.17 modifier.
What you get? Chance to hit up to 3 times with awkward griffon bow attack, with ridiculous spread working only when not needed and in point blank range.

I would say that buffing explosive shot, leaping shot, general auto attack single target damage and 4th ability (trap, daggers etc) gives me more than some awkward mechanic of griffon. I've played with this bow before having dragon bow and still after few games I've changed to Punch of the maker. Griffon spread is just ridiculous so you need to stand very close. It's like shotgun with 0.5 m range. In general I prefer to avoid being "that" close to units where I can get hit by every melee attack they have.
Based on my observation skills vs autoattack is around 60% to 40% on FC map and 70% - 30% on normal maps. I would need to constantly hit 3 times to make griffon worth it.
Still main reason is higher ability damage and "free" slot on rings.

 

1% HoH means that Leaping Shot can heal you for up to 12% and Long Shot depending on how many enemies are lined up. If you shoot Explosive Shot into 5 enemies, you get 10% for example. The mod slot also means that underpromoted player can up their crit chance to spam their abilities with opportunity knocks. The thread in question wasn't about what does the highest damage when you have hundreds of promotions. It was a new player asking which bow to use to survive on Perilous with the Archer. Unless you have a decent crit chance, the dragon bow doesn't perform nearly as well.

 

And yes, to get the most out of the griffon bow, you need to hug the enemies. I like to use it in conjunction with Evade, as it allows me to cancel the awkward auto attack animation by leaping towards the next target. Some people like to play their Hunter with a shotgun, nothing wrong with that.

[Drasca]

 don't neglect the 41% attack bonus on the Griffon bow.

 

That is almost completely neglected when it comes to long shot, as the damage bonus from AL does not multiply against attack bonus.

[Hellsteeth30]

I see, so we're pretending the whole thing never happened.

Fair enough. Watching SB fight himself was kind of tragic though.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

That is almost completely neglected when it comes to long shot, as the damage bonus from AL does not multiply against attack bonus.

Out of context and misrepresented.

I mentioned Long Shot and Archer's Lance in reference to Cruel Redemption's HoH. Griffon bow was a clear reference to it's basic attack, because that's the scenario mentioned where it's damage compares with the Dragon bow.

[Pork]

I see, so we're pretending the whole thing never happened.

Fair enough. Watching SB fight himself was kind of tragic though.

 

Pretty odd how the person 'throwing the gauntlet' didn't actually post anything. Can't say im surprised though.

[Angelus_de_Mortiel]

I see, so we're pretending the whole thing never happened.

Fair enough. Watching SB fight himself was kind of tragic though.

It was not a shock. Drasca rarely provides proof when challenged. He just attempts to discredit the poster or obfuscate the topic to avoid being wrong.

[Hellsteeth30]

It seems he's posting something in the other official topic.

Let's watch.

[Pork]

It seems he's posting something in the other official topic.

Let's watch.

 

Slower time, used cool beats/hot licks a lot. Weak. Also past the deadline so its totally irrelevant.

[Ghost Of N7_SP3CTR3]

[Angry_Elcor]

Let's watch.

 

 

This show turned out to be very predictable, and really didn't contain any surprises. That's not good for a comedy (it was a comedy, right?) I think I'll switch channels and watch a drama. A really good drama. Or porn.

[Proto]

For your entertainment until we witness Drasca's video.

 

[Hellsteeth30]

This show turned out to be very predictable, and really didn't contain any surprises. That's not good for a comedy (it was a comedy, right?) I think I'll switch channels and watch a drama. A really good drama. Or porn.

Evil willow was hot.

Sadly I'm not current on good drama, so I vote porn.

[yarpenthemad21]

I'd note that I largely agree with you, but wanted to point out a couple of things:

Cruel Redemption has 1% HoH for abilities as well, including Leaping Shot and Long Shot upgraded with Archer's Lance, both hit multiple times. HoK is still overall superior for a DPS build in my opinion, but HoH still deserves a fair representation.

Secondly, don't neglect the 41% attack bonus on the Griffon bow. Also note that he specified it is superior at close range, which is theoretically true. It is also technically the only "AoE" bow in MP, it's just unwieldy as you say.

The biggest factor here, however, is that outside of pure theory craft, this largely depends on what bow RNGesus had blessed you with... If Griffon is the best you have, it's the best you have.

If you want I can make some table, it isn't really hard to compare damage on those 3 bows with whatever stats you like.

I know about heal on hit working on abilities, I know that those abilities can hit multi targets or multi times. Still it's just an equivalent of HoK on dragon bow. Arguing what is better does not make any sense.

I don't neglect attack bonus on griffon. I've just simplified it, dragon bow gives +41% attack, griffon 42%, so attack bonus is just the same. Difference is that dragon bow has: heal on kill, crit chance and 17% higher base damage (which you can think as multiplicative 17% damage bonus) and griffon just this awkward auto attack. That's all. Maybe if it was shooting rockets, or Avvars it would be more appealing to me.

1% HoH means that Leaping Shot can heal you for up to 12% and Long Shot depending on how many enemies are lined up. If you shoot Explosive Shot into 5 enemies, you get 10% for example. The mod slot also means that underpromoted player can up their crit chance to spam their abilities with opportunity knocks. The thread in question wasn't about what does the highest damage when you have hundreds of promotions. It was a new player asking which bow to use to survive on Perilous with the Archer. Unless you have a decent crit chance, the dragon bow doesn't perform nearly as well.
 
And yes, to get the most out of the griffon bow, you need to hug the enemies. I like to use it in conjunction with Evade, as it allows me to cancel the awkward auto attack animation by leaping towards the next target. Some people like to play their Hunter with a shotgun, nothing wrong with that.

I'm pretty sure that oportunity knock works with other party members crits, not with archer ones, but still.

Dragon bow gives:
Heal on Kill - not everyone have HoK ring
7% crit chance bonus - if you want crit chance machine just take punch of the maker and proper upgrade on it
41% attack bonus, for player without promotion is around 35-40% damage bonus. It's huge really.
Highest base damage from bow = highest damage
It's by far best "newbie" bow possible, like gift from the gods for not that much promoted players.

[Drasca]

I'm pretty sure that oportunity knock works with other party members crits, not with archer ones, but still.

Dragon bow gives:
Heal on Kill - not everyone have HoK ring
7% crit chance bonus - if you want crit chance machine just take punch of the maker and proper upgrade on it
41% attack bonus, for player without promotion is around 35-40% damage bonus. It's huge really.
Highest base damage from bow = highest damage
It's by far best "newbie" bow possible, like gift from the gods for not that much promoted players.

 

Small correction, OK works on any allied critical, including the archer's. You can see this when you do criticals with leaping shot, enabling you to chain leaping shots with the passive looked like it hurt, if you are able to maintain optimal attack distance by using cover behind you.

 

Dragon Bow is still the best newbie friendly bow. CR does however begin to match or exceed the Dragon Bow for damage once you do have guaranteed criticals (passives or cunning) and CDB on the bow grip by end-game. The option to swap in critical chance is quite nice too for more specialized usage.

[Cirvante]

If you want I can make some table, it isn't really hard to compare damage on those 3 bows with whatever stats you like.

I know about heal on hit working on abilities, I know that those abilities can hit multi targets or multi times. Still it's just an equivalent of HoK on dragon bow. Arguing what is better does not make any sense.

I don't neglect attack bonus on griffon. I've just simplified it, dragon bow gives +41% attack, griffon 42%, so attack bonus is just the same. Difference is that dragon bow has: heal on kill, crit chance and 17% higher base damage (which you can think as multiplicative 17% damage bonus) and griffon just this awkward auto attack. That's all. Maybe if it was shooting rockets, or Avvars it would be more appealing to me.


I'm pretty sure that oportunity knock works with other party members crits, not with archer ones, but still.

Dragon bow gives:
Heal on Kill - not everyone have HoK ring
7% crit chance bonus - if you want crit chance machine just take punch of the maker and proper upgrade on it
41% attack bonus, for player without promotion is around 35-40% damage bonus. It's huge really.
Highest base damage from bow = highest damage
It's by far best "newbie" bow possible, like gift from the gods for not that much promoted players.

 

I'm pretty sure that your own crits count for opportunity knocks. I can often spam Leaping Shot on the dragon without cooldown. And I don't think you realize just how much healing you recieve when you can spam your abilities with opportunity knocks. Keep in mind that heal on kill seems to be bugged when you kill several enemies at once and sometimes only heals you for one. Heal on hit doesn't have that problem.

[Snakebite]

For your entertainment until we witness Drasca's video.

 

 

This video was actually posted  recorded as a rebuttal to Yarpen's claim that having PUG's spread out over the map forces spawns into unpredictable locations that makes the zone longer.

 

I would argue with it (ignoring this video e-peen showoff)
1. They can mess up with spawn points, making them in few separate groups instead of one. It can happen very often, especially with player getting behind.
 

 

Being spread out does not make spawns worse, and is in fact the only reliable way to force a spawn to stop.

 

 

 

 

 

Either that or this is just me showing my E-peen... choose to believe what you like.

[apocalypse_owl]

Congrats on the uncontested win snakebite

[Drasca]

This video was actually posted  recorded as a rebuttal to Yarpen's claim that having PUG's spread out over the map forces spawns into unpredictable locations that makes the zone longer.

 

Being spread out does not make spawns worse, and is in fact the only reliable way to force a spawn to stop.

 

No, only very specific locations deny spawn. You were in the very exact spots necessary to spawncamp. That is not typical for pugs, and to be realistic pugs don't typically survive solo without team support either.

 

Spawns will run around and be in areas that are not ideal. If you have to be in the position where you cannot deny spawns, they'll trickle in or spawn in undesireable locations. Pugs will also die, possibly fade, requiring other players to either rez them, mobs continue hanging about on their corpses until they fade, or when they fade all mobs will do more damage to living players.

 

I'm pretty sure that your own crits count for opportunity knocks. I can often spam Leaping Shot on the dragon without cooldown.

 

Correction: Very low / vastly reduced cooldown. It is still there, just eaten away by all the crits quickly.