431 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

Ha, yeah... Big problem in ME3 right there.

Huge sense of urgency all the way through but you're forced to waste time or otherwise miss 50% of the game.

I don't understand. 90% (if not more) of Shepard's activities benefit the war effort. And yes, that includes fetch quests and exploration which provide war assets.

[Sion1138]

I don't understand. 90% (if not more) of Shepard's activities benefit the war effort. And yes, that includes fetch quests and exploration which provide war assets.

 

I felt like many of those tasks weren't Shepard material.

[Vazgen]

I felt like many of these tasks weren't Shepard material.

Depends on a Shepard. Normandy is the only ship that can outsmart and outrun Reapers and most (if not all) of those quests are in Reaper-controlled systems. Should Shepard bother? Not necessarily. But the game does not force you to do those quests. You can strictly follow the main questline if you wish and still get the all the endings (with EC). And if you decide to do those, it's not wasting time, you help the war effort. You can, for example, get Interferometric Array by scanning some random planet (without any quests). Is it a waste of time? You find a component for the Crucible!

[dreamgazer]

I felt like many of these tasks weren't Shepard material.

Unlike escorting a broken-down mech and stumbling around on the Estevanico while human colonies are disappearing?

[Pasquale1234]

Tbh, ME2 is the same. You go through Normandy destruction, Lazarus station, TIM conversation, Freedom's Progress and only then get access to the Normandy.
ME1 too - Cutscenes, Eden Prime, cutscenes, Citadel, a whole line of quests and only then you get access to the Normandy.
 
Granted, Shepard does not have much choice in the first two games since he has no access to the Normandy while performing those feats but the amount of content before being able to explore the galaxy is about the same.

Before being able to explore the galaxy? Maybe.

ME1:
I could have some conversations with Jenkins, Chakwas, Pressly, etc. before reporting to Anderson/Nihlus - or not. I could save and reload and try different conversation options at any time. The same is true of the first mission on Eden Prime. I could save anytime except during combat. After the beam, we're cutscened to the med bay for a conversation and then instructed to tell Joker to take us to the Citadel. I could stop and converse with Kaidan/Ashley or not. Once I arrived on the Citadel, I could go directly to the Council Chambers or explore the Citadel and start doing other sidequests there. I wasn't automatically cutscened everywhere, and had a lot more freedom to engage the content at my own pace. Not complete freedom - there were some things you could not access until you had completed other things.

Once you became a Spectre and took command of the Normandy, you were assigned 3 main missions and given the galaxy to explore. Lots of freedom in there to approach that content at your own pace, per your own preferences. At no point was I required (or asked) to talk to squadmates onboard, I could take their conversations at my own pace. I can remember only a couple of places in the entire game where there was more than one cutscene served in a row, and they were around major story points. A lot of the mission chatter with Hackett was presented in cutscenes - with Shepard remaining at the galaxy map - which, imo, is much less intrusive than being whisked into a comm room.

ME2:
Yeah, the beginning up to getting the Normandy was mostly on rails, with a few optional conversations available. Then the content was meted out in batches. Do x missions, a collector mission is forced. Etc. "Commander, squadmate x needs to speak with you" I was just down there! That got a bit annoying.

Still we had a fair amount of leeway wrt which mission to do next, what and whether to explore. I don't remember any instances of multiple cutscenes piled on one another in ME2 - although the opportunities to save the game were fewer than in ME1.
 

And ME3 circumvents it by introducing the sense of urgency - moving to Mars and subsequent travel to the Citadel need to be done fast without wasting time on touring the Normandy. First part, because Normandy gets to Mars very fast (FTL travel), second - because Kaidan/Ash is in need of urgent medical help. Touring the Normandy while VS is fighting for his/her life in the med bay is not really a great idea IMO.

The urgency is a valid point, but there is still *some* travel time involved. Shepard could be doing something other than twiddling her thumbs while en route. Also, bear in mind that the Normandy had been in drydock undergoing retrofits - it did not have (or should not have had) a regular, full crew prepared to set sail onboard. Adams, Traynor, and Cortez tell you they were working on the retrofits, which is why they were onboard. Joker and Edi will tell you how they took the Normandy, and that the guards posted outside the War Room had been there to guard Joker. In ME1, Shepard was given the opportunity to address the crew over the PA after taking command of the SR1. Apparently, that all happened off-screen in ME3.

[Sion1138]

Unlike escorting a broken-down mech and stumbling around on the Estevanico while human colonies are disappearing?

 

Like I ever said that.

 

I'm not an ME2 worshiper.

 

Still, I felt that the sense of urgency in ME3 was far more palpable, hence my apprehension for the various side-activities.

 

That could have been mitigated in a number of ways though, I just don't feel that it was.

[Sanunes]

Like I ever said that.

 

I'm not an ME2 worshiper.

 

Still, I felt that the sense of urgency in ME3 was far more palpable, hence my apprehension for the various side-activities.

 

That could have been mitigated in a number of ways though, I just don't feel that it was.

 

I think this is a problem with almost all of BioWare's games for unless you keep the "big bad" an unknown until the end of the game it can feel that way. The only game where I didn't was Dragon Age 2.

[N7Jamaican]

The ME2 mission was supposed to be over a year, I think. So there's time to screw around. Shepard is in action around early 2185, and Arrival (or the equivalent Alliance Bahak mission) happens early 2186.

 

I heard ME3 is only a few months or something. There might be something in the game itself indicating it... can't remember now.

I believe ME3 takes about a year or less... Considering it took centuries for the reapers to finish off the protheans -- don't see how they could harvest this cycle much faster than previous...  Even though the process started in ME2.. Still would have taken a century or so -- as Liara says.

[line_genrou]

Sorry

I'll just delete this because it's getting off topic

[N7Jamaican]

They're not close to harvesting like that. There's still trillions left, and many Reapers are focused on Earth specifically.

 

The urgency of the story is building the crucible and getting back to Earth for Anderson..

 

...but I could've sworn there was a dialogue saying how long Anderson was holding out. Maybe I'm imagining it.

I think it was a few months on Earth.  Don't think they specified.. You can check the wiki -- which I am about to do.

[AlanC9]

Like I ever said that.
 
I'm not an ME2 worshiper.
 
Still, I felt that the sense of urgency in ME3 was far more palpable, hence my apprehension for the various side-activities.
 
That could have been mitigated in a number of ways though, I just don't feel that it was.

Note that such urgency would be an illusion anyway, and not really coherent with the overall plot. While the Reaper war is urgent, the Crucible will nevertheless take months to build. Blowing off the side missions won't make that go any faster. The game structure obscures this because time only passes when you do a "Priority" mission, and since you get the next Priority mission as soon as you finish the one you're on, you can accelerate the clock at will. ME2's solution to the problem is somewhat superior, since any mission can cause time to pass. (The trick is to force Reaper IFF the moment it's available, and always do N7s if one comes up via scanning -- Normandy'd likely be dumping drive charge anyway, so Shepard might as well have a look while he waits.)

Ideally, I'd have a real clock with real travel times. A player would either use the system efficiently, or he wouldn't. (No, I'm not delusional -- I know this won't ever happen in an AAA release. That battle was lost long ago.)

[Golden_Persona]

A lot of these issues being debated like the sense of urgency in ME and whatnot... I don't really get it. It's a video game for a reason. As Shepard you are responsible for what you choose to do and choose not to do. I think its hardly fair to blame the game for good game design in all 3 games ie letting you do as much or as little as you want to ensure you're entertained either way. I could care less if Saren is already on Illos I'm going to take my time doing all the side quests. Human colonies disappearing? Yeah I'll get back to that once I'm done doing this dude's shopping. Reapers invading the galaxy and obliterating life as we know it? Let me just get this book for you.

 

If any of the ME games forced you down a path for the sake of urgency then we'd all be complaining about that. There are times when we should let games be games. For example in the Witcher 3 I have a quest to do with Yennefer. She's waiting patiently by a dock for me. I've shown up next to her a couple times, danced around, used signs on her, and she doesn't do anything... so I left her there and its been 20 hours of playtime since I saw her, most likely a few weeks in-game time of her just standing there.

 

Complaining about that would be silly. It's a game, and the game waits for the player.

[KaiserShep]

ME2 and 3 do have some timed stuff here and there, though it's based on missions engaged rather than simply being strictly on a timer.

[Vazgen]

Before being able to explore the galaxy? Maybe.

ME1:
I could have some conversations with Jenkins, Chakwas, Pressly, etc. before reporting to Anderson/Nihlus - or not. I could save and reload and try different conversation options at any time. The same is true of the first mission on Eden Prime. I could save anytime except during combat. After the beam, we're cutscened to the med bay for a conversation and then instructed to tell Joker to take us to the Citadel. I could stop and converse with Kaidan/Ashley or not. Once I arrived on the Citadel, I could go directly to the Council Chambers or explore the Citadel and start doing other sidequests there. I wasn't automatically cutscened everywhere, and had a lot more freedom to engage the content at my own pace. Not complete freedom - there were some things you could not access until you had completed other things.

Once you became a Spectre and took command of the Normandy, you were assigned 3 main missions and given the galaxy to explore. Lots of freedom in there to approach that content at your own pace, per your own preferences. At no point was I required (or asked) to talk to squadmates onboard, I could take their conversations at my own pace. I can remember only a couple of places in the entire game where there was more than one cutscene served in a row, and they were around major story points. A lot of the mission chatter with Hackett was presented in cutscenes - with Shepard remaining at the galaxy map - which, imo, is much less intrusive than being whisked into a comm room.

ME2:
Yeah, the beginning up to getting the Normandy was mostly on rails, with a few optional conversations available. Then the content was meted out in batches. Do x missions, a collector mission is forced. Etc. "Commander, squadmate x needs to speak with you" I was just down there! That got a bit annoying.

Still we had a fair amount of leeway wrt which mission to do next, what and whether to explore. I don't remember any instances of multiple cutscenes piled on one another in ME2 - although the opportunities to save the game were fewer than in ME1.

So the problem is not being able to save? I'd say that the amount of content when you are not able to save in the opening of ME2 is almost the same as in ME3. You are not able to save through the whole Normandy destruction and Shepard's resurrection.

We can look at it in more detail. I listed long dialogues and cutscenes up until the end of a tutorial mission.

 

ME1

Opening cutscene (Shepard walks through CIC), dialogue with Joker and Kaidan (takes about 4 minutes: 2:18-6:21).

Ability to save, optional dialogue with Pressly, Chakwas and Jenkins.

Dialogue with Anderson and Nihlus, landing on Eden Prime (8:50-14:16 without Investigate options).

Ability to save, combat mission.

Interacting with the beacon, med-bay conversations (18:41-20:51 + 0:00-4:53).

Ability to save, optional dialogue with Ashley and Chakwas.

Getting to the Citadel, Udina's debriefing (12:53-16:27)

 

Overall, 20 minutes 6 seconds of cutscenes and dialogue with 3 opportunities to save inbetween.

 

ME2

Opening cutscene, Normandy destruction, Lazarus project (2:31-15:16)

Ability to save, combat mission

Meeting Miranda, psychic evaluation (33:08-38:32)

Ability to save, customize armor

Conversation with TIM (1:08-5:09)

Ability to save, optional dialogue with Miranda and Jacob, Shuttle ride cutscene, Freedom's Progress mission

Dealing with Veetor, TIM debriefing, seeing Normandy SR2 (5:54-20:30)

 

Overall 36 minutes 46 seconds of cutscenes and dialogue with 3 opportunities to save inbetween

 

ME3

Opening cutscene, meeting James, Anderson, committee (3:59-12:32)

Ability to save, combat mission

Normandy arrival, landing on Mars (26:16-30:04 + 0:04-3:58)

Ability to save, combat mission

Entering the facility, meeting Liara (8:49-14:02)

Ability to save, combat mission

Meeting TIM, chasing Dr. Eva, saving Ashley, getting to the Citadel (13:48-15:43 + 0:04-15:18)

 

Overall - 38 minutes 37 seconds of cutscenes and dialogue with 3 opportunities to save inbetween

 

As you can see, ME3 is quite similar to ME2 in cutscene/gameplay ratio during the opening. 

 

The urgency is a valid point, but there is still *some* travel time involved. Shepard could be doing something other than twiddling her thumbs while en route. Also, bear in mind that the Normandy had been in drydock undergoing retrofits - it did not have (or should not have had) a regular, full crew prepared to set sail onboard. Adams, Traynor, and Cortez tell you they were working on the retrofits, which is why they were onboard. Joker and Edi will tell you how they took the Normandy, and that the guards posted outside the War Room had been there to guard Joker. In ME1, Shepard was given the opportunity to address the crew over the PA after taking command of the SR1. Apparently, that all happened off-screen in ME3.

Not sure what the full crew has to do with it. ME2 already shown that EDI can operate Normandy SR2 with only a handful of crew. And why should Shepard address the crew? He can even turn down the opportunity in ME1.

 

And Shepard does not "twiddle his thumbs" He prepares for the mission, checks his gear, equips armor etc. It is even shown when he grabs a Predator and chest plate.

 

And honestly, I'd take ME3 sense of urgency over the Race Against Time in ME1 any day. 

[azarhal]

I believe ME3 takes about a year or less... Considering it took centuries for the reapers to finish off the protheans -- don't see how they could harvest this cycle much faster than previous...  Even though the process started in ME2.. Still would have taken a century or so -- as Liara says.

 

This cycle will take less time to harvest. The space faring races didn't spread as much as the Protheans did. The oldest space faring races (Asari/Salarian) discovered the Citadel about ~2500 years before ME1 start. The Protheans had a 20k year old galactic empire by the time the Reapers showed up.

 

As for the time the game last in-game, realistically, it would take 4 years for the Reapers to tow the Citadel above Earth, it's took big to use the Mass Relays...but Bioware had thrown logic out of the window by that point.

[Cheviot]

As for the time the game last in-game, realistically, it would take 4 years for the Reapers to tow the Citadel above Earth, it's took big to use the Mass Relays...

This is an old argument that keeps coming back up, but I keep forgetting what the reply is to the fact that since the Relays can deal with hundreds or maybe thousands of skyscraper-sized Reapers travelling to the same place at the same time, they wouldn't have a problem with the structures the size of the Citadel.

[azarhal]

This is an old argument that keeps coming back up, but I keep forgetting what the reply is to the fact that since the Relays can deal with hundreds or maybe thousands of skyscraper-sized Reapers travelling to the same place at the same time, they wouldn't have a problem with the structures the size of the Citadel.

 

Each Reapers jump one after the other, the mass reduced is that of a single Reaper, not all of them glued together. The Citadel is one massive structure.

[Vazgen]

Is there anything to indicate that the relays can't operate with masses as large as the Citadel?

[Mathias]

Old Bioware IS dead, and I'm pretty sure that's been the claim the whole time. There's a difference between being dead and being broke. Bioware isn't broke, but the Old Bioware that used to produce high quality RPGs that would live on as classics is more certainly dead. Was DA:I a good game? Yes it definitely was. Will it stand the test of time? No. Dragon Age Origins is still the best DA game, and The Witcher 3, no offense, destroyed DA:I in almost every department. Ok that part may be subjective, but let's all agree Witcher 3 was much better received both critically and commercially.

 

CDprojektRed hasn't been producing nearly as much AAA games has Bioware have. They're fairly new in that department. But despite that, TW3 sold 3-4 times the amount that DA:I in it's first two weeks, and it wasn't even on as many platforms as DA:I. So that's something to consider here.

I don't hate Bioware, I still really enjoy their games, and I'm very much looking forward to Mass Effect 4. But they don't crap gold anymore. I did enjoy DA:I a lot, but it wasn't as good as it could've been. I don't think it lived up to the hype.

[azarhal]

Is there anything to indicate that the relays can't operate with masses as large as the Citadel?

 

You might want to start to wonder how to fit an object of the size of 12.8km(radius)x44.7km into a conduit created by mass relays that are just 5kmx15km in size.

[Vazgen]

You might want to start to wonder how to fit an object of the size of 12.8km(radius)x44.7km into a conduit created by mass relays that are just 5kmx15km in size.

And how did you determine those sizes? 

[azarhal]

And how did you determine those sizes? 

 

From the game codex (aka Mass Effect wiki because I'm at work).

[CronoDragoon]

Old Bioware IS dead, and I'm pretty sure that's been the claim the whole time. There's a difference between being dead and being broke. Bioware isn't broke, but the Old Bioware that used to produce high quality RPGs that would live on as classics is more certainly dead. Was DA:I a good game? Yes it definitely was. Will it stand the test of time? No. Dragon Age Origins is still the best DA game, and The Witcher 3, no offense, destroyed DA:I in almost every department. Ok that part may be subjective, but let's all agree Witcher 3 was much better received both critically and commercially.

 

Standing the test of time is in itself subjective. Dragon Age: Origins on console certainly hasn't, and those who aren't into the CRPG genre would say similar things for any pre-KOTOR BioWare game. Meanwhile KOTOR's gameplay is abysmal for a console game (which it originally was) as was Jade Empire's.

 

As for old BioWare being dead:

 

1. I think Sylvius disagrees with you there.

2. even if they are, don't conflate this with game quality.

 

 

CDprojektRed hasn't been producing nearly as much AAA games has Bioware have. They're fairly new in that department. But despite that, TW3 sold 3-4 times the amount that DA:I in it's first two weeks, and it wasn't even on as many platforms as DA:I. So that's something to consider here.

I don't hate Bioware, I still really enjoy their games, and I'm very much looking forward to Mass Effect 4. But they don't crap gold anymore. I did enjoy DA:I a lot, but it wasn't as good as it could've been. I don't think it lived up to the hype.

 

They never crapped gold. Anyone who loves BioWare has always been able to overlook issues with their games in order to find things they enjoy. When I was introduced to BioWare during the Xbox era, I'd always have to overlook crap combat in order to enjoy the character-driven dialogues and choice systems. Ditto for Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect 1. Only recently has BioWare begun to take seriously the action portion of their action RPGs, a welcome development. In terms of "the total package," I'd say that only applies to Baldur's Gate II, Mass Effect 2, and Mass Effect 3 (ending aside). Two of those games are New BioWare.