Aller au contenu

Photo

Official Fallout 4 and DLC Discussion Thread


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
4356 réponses à ce sujet

#3701
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

A Crusty Knight Of Colour
  • Members
  • 7 472 messages

You are presupposing that you will buy the game. Bethesda is hoping that is exactly what you do - buy the game to find out if it's any good without having to show you anything. That's what people are concerned about... blindly buying a product that you know nothing about it's gameplay is risky behavior.


Bethesda has always operated like that though. And it's been immensely successful because they've had a monopoly on 'comfy shallow sandbox rpg', which is an off-shoot of the immensely popular 'shallow sandbox' game design. The formula comes down to giving the player tools and mechanics for their own fun and enjoyment, without anchoring them to things that are actually punishing. A shallow sandbox. Elder Scrolls (especially post-Morrowind), Fallout 3 (and NV to a much lesser extent), GTA, Saint's Row, Watch_Dogs, Far Cry, Crysis, Assassin's Creed, Just Cause, Dying Light, etc etc.

Some of the most successful games and franchises in the current AAA arena is built on that concept. It means that gamers still fundamentally enjoy playing games as opposed to the pretentious walking simulator experience that progressive media is trying to push onto people, but that 'dumb fun' is still a key component of what makes a game popular. Nothing wrong with that, but I get really spergy and triggered as it relates to open world RPGs. Witcher 3 and to a lesser extent Inquisition have done a good job in breaking the false dichotomy between non-linear open world games and quality writing/roleplaying that Bethesda and BioWare have built up in the minds of gamers since the days of KotOR and Morrowind but there are plenty of people that look at open world games and scoff that it immediately means that the writing is crap or disposable, because every bloody game that follows a similar design formula in the current industry is exactly that.
  • Dermain aime ceci

#3702
Dermain

Dermain
  • Members
  • 4 477 messages

Bethesda has liked playing their cards close to their chest after staff from No Mutants Allowed were invited to a Fallout 3 preview event and ripped the game to shreds. They will work very hard to ensure that they have a strict control over the flow of information, promising big things and delivering only pieces of what was promised.

I wouldn't worry too much about them not showing much info as this is something that Bethesda normally does.

What worries me more is that Bethesda went all out on Skyrim marketing, whereas Fallout 4 feels a lot more subdued in comparison.

 

What exactly happened with that?



#3703
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

A Crusty Knight Of Colour
  • Members
  • 7 472 messages

What exactly happened with that?


It actually wasn't a whole lot. NMA is an old Fallout community who sent two staff members (one of whom now works at InXile) to a Game Convention in 2007 to witness a public demo of Fallout 3 by Bethesda. They wrote up a thorough report for NMA and concluded very diplomatically that Fallout 3 was going to be a sh*t Fallout game.
 

It is kind of hard to make a final judgement based on a demo, when every time you ask for specific it turns out the demo isn't representative of the game. Since I covered most facts above, I'll now go more with the feeling I got from it.

Fallout 3 looks like a well-produced, very pretty, very fun game that'll provide quite a few people with a lot of hours of enjoyment. However, I don't think it's anything more than a very pretty and fun game.

This game is missing a key ingredient: guts, daring, innovation. I'm not even referring to the kind of guts Tim Cain noted when he explained turn-based combat was doing something different in a time of real-time and pause-based combat (ref), though I guess they miss those kind of guts too. I'm talking about the very basic ingredients of an independent vision.

The only times this game really shines is when it is copying from the originals directly. The moments of inspiration outside of that are rare, limited to a few jokes and the Protectron's excellent design.

But what does that mean? Pretty much that we're looking at a pretty bland, uninspired game here, and that people expecting the next big break-through in RPGs or gaming in general to come from here should probably look the other way. And who knows how it'll hold up against competing RPG or RPG-like games in late 2008? Only time will tell. But suffice it to say that despite flashes of brilliances, I'm not overly impressed by this game, and hate to see a franchise tag that once stood for being so different now applied to something that is so humdrum and potentially dull.

Oh, and as a Fallout fan...if it weren't too early in a simple chronological sense (it still being more than a year until release), I'd write this game off as a potential successor and just file it under spin-off, patiently awaiting to see how badly it damages to setting.


If I try to be perfectly objective about the subject, there is no doubt in my mind that this game will be a success on the mainstream market. It has everything it needs for such success: nice graphics (which I'm sure will improve in the coming year), a setting that easily sets it apart (one of Fallout's great strengths), acceptable gameplay though without real novelties (unlike Bethesda likes to claim), Bethesda's broad fanbase (of mostly Oblivion fanboys) and excellent contacts with the mainstream gaming press (aka the hype machine). But even when looking at it from a totally objective point of view, I cannot see how this 45 minute demonstration won Bethesda so many E3 awards. It looks like an average fun mainstream actionRPG game which really doesn't offer anything special with the exception of the Fallout setting. Which is fine on its own, but surely that isn't enough to deserve so many awards?

As what today is considered an "Internet Curmudgeon with a Heart of Radioactive Gold", a "fan whose ideas are retarded by 8 years" or even a "Glittering Gem of Hatred", I can't help but see my (and NMA's) expectations about the game being confirmed. It looks as if someone peripherally interested in the Fallout games took a few core elements that they liked and made a game out of it without really respecting the old game, deeply researching what made the old games tick or even trying to please the old but still very alive fanbase. It is as if they took some Fallout flavour and sprinkled it over what "they do best". I wouldn't go as far as saying it is Oblivion with Guns, but it certainly isn't what we'd like call a true Fallout sequel.

It is rather ironic that Bethesda didn't want to name the game differently. I think the old fanbase might have reacted considerably differently if Bethesda had chosen to name it something else, like "Fallout: The East Coast (part 1)", and had promoted it as a kind of freeroaming actionRPG game inside Bethesda's take on the Fallout universe. This might actually have worked, and I do believe it would have received far more support from the community. However, if you insist on making a sequel to a game series that is welknown for its opinionated fanbase, you'd better make sure you deeply research what made the series work in the first place, before simply removing core elements of both the gameplay and the setting.

Is there still hope of a Fallout 3 true to the series and original development mindset? I sincerely doubt it. However, regardless of the mess made by Bethesda by making this game aimed at the oblivious mainstream, maybe some good can come of this... Both the Oblivion and Fallout communities house very skilled modders and perhaps if those two meet on equal ground there might be hope for a few moments of Fallout bliss. Could these communities create a hors-serie freeroaming 'Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines'-like game in a universe true to the Fallout lore? Time will tell...

In short, it will likely be an interesting game for the average gamer who has little to no knowledge of the Fallout games, but for the run-of-the-mill Fallout fan I doubt the experience will be anywhere close to the originals or even worthwhile at all for some.


The problem was that comments like these fuelled the already heated debates on Bethesda's forums and Bethesda likes to keep that place under an iron fist (unlike here) because I suspect a lot of their viral marketing relies on content produced on their websites to be filtered down to reddit and other social media.

I've noticed since then with Skyrim, New Vegas and Fallout 4 now, that they've been much more restrained in letting people in early. Basically, not giving negative press enough time to gain momentum. Whilst that particular demo appeared over a year before the final release of the game, media-only demo previews of New Vegas and Skyrim didn't appear until around E3 of the year the games were released, so only around 5 months. Similar case here with Fallout 4.
  • Dermain aime ceci

#3704
Akrabra

Akrabra
  • Members
  • 2 364 messages

Always wondered why they named it Fallout 3, wouldn't it have been easier to just do it as a spin-off? Fallout - title here. 



#3705
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

Bethesda has always operated like that though. And it's been immensely successful because they've had a monopoly on 'comfy shallow sandbox rpg', which is an off-shoot of the immensely popular 'shallow sandbox' game design. The formula comes down to giving the player tools and mechanics for their own fun and enjoyment, without anchoring them to things that are actually punishing. A shallow sandbox. Elder Scrolls (especially post-Morrowind), Fallout 3 (and NV to a much lesser extent), GTA, Saint's Row, Watch_Dogs, Far Cry, Crysis, Assassin's Creed, Just Cause, Dying Light, etc etc.

Well, while I do agree that Bethesda has settled themselves into a niche when it comes building their type of games, I don't think it has been their policy to play releases this close to the vest, at least in the past. I remember countless hours of promotional videos where the Beth devs walked through systems and demonstrated physics or NPC behaviors or the "Ambient Quest" features, all well ahead of release of games like Oblivion, FO3 or Skyrim. It seems they are being very quiet about this release, which is interesting. Maybe it is hangover from the No Mutants Allowed blowback, maybe it is from seeing some recent developers get burned by pre-release statements or videos, maybe there's something hugely wrong with the game they are trying to fix before they show the world... who knows? Thing is, it's not how they have done their previous games, so that change in pre-release tactics will always garner discussion and speculation.

Some of the most successful games and franchises in the current AAA arena is built on that concept. It means that gamers still fundamentally enjoy playing games as opposed to the pretentious walking simulator experience that progressive media is trying to push onto people, but that 'dumb fun' is still a key component of what makes a game popular. Nothing wrong with that, but I get really spergy and triggered as it relates to open world RPGs. Witcher 3 and to a lesser extent Inquisition have done a good job in breaking the false dichotomy between non-linear open world games and quality writing/roleplaying that Bethesda and BioWare have built up in the minds of gamers since the days of KotOR and Morrowind but there are plenty of people that look at open world games and scoff that it immediately means that the writing is crap or disposable, because every bloody game that follows a similar design formula in the current industry is exactly that.

If we take a step back, I think it may be a different problem than "sandbox games have weak stories," but maybe something more along the lines of "sandbox games have problems TELLING stories." It's more a matter of HOW the story is told rather than the story itself being weak or strong. With more text based design, a lot was left to the player's imagination and the words themselves stood on their own. In the voice acting world, the voice acting was swiftly coupled with in-game animations, which introduced a whole new spectrum of difficulty in communicating with the player, as wooden animations became nearly distracting from the words and presentation itself. Then comes the free roaming camera, where a player could be having a large scene play out with someone like the Jarl of Whiterun and instead be trying to see if they can see an apple on the table for them to steal later. The delivery falls flat because the player is not engaged in the conversation - they have more points of stimulation than the "important" content underway will capture.

Which, ultimately, leads down the road of cinematics and carefully crafted scenes to tell stories, which both is exponential in cost with something like a sandbox game, as well as threatening to the RP experience of crafting, creating and controlling a character of the player's own design. And we are now seeing this with Bethesda - they realize they can tell the same story and it be perceived as better because the character will emote and interact with NPCs (whether the player wants them to or not). It's not the Bethesda could never tell a good story... it's that they could never tell it in a way that their format was conducive to. Which is a shame, because that means all AAA RPGs will be headed into the realm of large, open-world games with cinematic story-telling and voiced, more pre-set protagonists.

#3706
Fast Jimmy

Fast Jimmy
  • Members
  • 17 939 messages

Always wondered why they named it Fallout 3, wouldn't it have been easier to just do it as a spin-off? Fallout - title here.


Fallout: For People Who've Never Played Fallout*!


*I joke, I joke, I keed, I keed

#3707
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

It is three months before launch, if you are not showing your product outside closed doors then something IS wrong and you're hiding something. and the creation engine aka gamebryo with a new game is a horrible engine that Bethesda only uses because it's cheap.


Not just because it's cheap, but because it doesn't really use enough middleware that modding would be an absurd expense for them. Switching to another engine would make modding tools a greater expense.

#3708
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Bethesda has liked playing their cards close to their chest after staff from No Mutants Allowed were invited to a Fallout 3 preview event and ripped the game to shreds. They will work very hard to ensure that they have a strict control over the flow of information, promising big things and delivering only pieces of what was promised.

I wouldn't worry too much about them not showing much info as this is something that Bethesda normally does.

What worries me more is that Bethesda went all out on Skyrim marketing, whereas Fallout 4 feels a lot more subdued in comparison.


It may be just that they're confident in FO4 enough that they don't believe in the cost of a marketing blitz. Marketing is stupidly expensive. If they think the brand name is a strong one, and they can get away with marketing in the lead-up to release alone while ridding their Skyrim coattails, their profit margin will look just that much nicer.

#3709
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Bethesda has always operated like that though. And it's been immensely successful because they've had a monopoly on 'comfy shallow sandbox rpg', which is an off-shoot of the immensely popular 'shallow sandbox' game design. The formula comes down to giving the player tools and mechanics for their own fun and enjoyment, without anchoring them to things that are actually punishing. A shallow sandbox. Elder Scrolls (especially post-Morrowind), Fallout 3 (and NV to a much lesser extent), GTA, Saint's Row, Watch_Dogs, Far Cry, Crysis, Assassin's Creed, Just Cause, Dying Light, etc etc.

Some of the most successful games and franchises in the current AAA arena is built on that concept. It means that gamers still fundamentally enjoy playing games as opposed to the pretentious walking simulator experience that progressive media is trying to push onto people, but that 'dumb fun' is still a key component of what makes a game popular. Nothing wrong with that, but I get really spergy and triggered as it relates to open world RPGs. Witcher 3 and to a lesser extent Inquisition have done a good job in breaking the false dichotomy between non-linear open world games and quality writing/roleplaying that Bethesda and BioWare have built up in the minds of gamers since the days of KotOR and Morrowind but there are plenty of people that look at open world games and scoff that it immediately means that the writing is crap or disposable, because every bloody game that follows a similar design formula in the current industry is exactly that.


Not that I necessarily disagree, but calling something that isn't a Bestheda game a walking simulator seems a little unwarranted, since ultimately that's what exploration in Bestheda games amounts to (in contrast to the other games you list like Saints Row or GTA). I get that what you're disparaging are actually those games where everything is on a linear corridor, but I don't think the design issue there is the amount of time spent walking (rather it ultimately has to do with how content is spread out and accessed, as well as how variable that content ultimately is).

That said I'm not convinced that the right description for a sandbox game is that people make their own fun - at least not in the way an RPG fan would mean it (e.g. headcanon or what people call emergent gameplay). Ultimately I think it breaks down on the side of people being able to troll and mess around with a virtual gameworld in a lot of interesting (to them) ways. Look at what Skyrim, FO3 and GTA share as features: how content is spaced out, how often it is randomly disassociated from other content, and how free the player is to just wreak havoc on a virtual world with little to no consequence.
  • Akrabra, Il Divo et SmilesJA aiment ceci

#3710
DarthSliver

DarthSliver
  • Members
  • 3 335 messages

You are presupposing that you will buy the game. Bethesda is hoping that is exactly what you do - buy the game to find out if it's any good without having to show you anything. That's what people are concerned about... blindly buying a product that you know nothing about it's gameplay is risky behavior.

i just don't think there is alot to be worried about because it is after all a Bethesda game. To expect to be able to play it without running into an issue is absurd, especially for a Playstation user like me lol. Remember Playstation didn't get Skyrim dlc until it was the last one, I think they didn't want to deal with their patches getting broken by the DLCs is why we had to wait lol. 



#3711
Akrabra

Akrabra
  • Members
  • 2 364 messages

To our fans who’ve asked: Fallout 4 doesn’t end when the main story is over and there is no level cap. You can keep playing and leveling.

 

Posted on Bethesda's facebook page now.



#3712
Liamv2

Liamv2
  • Members
  • 19 046 messages
No level cap. I guess they've gave up on anything resembling balance.

#3713
Akrabra

Akrabra
  • Members
  • 2 364 messages

No surprise given the Legendary system they implemented in Skyrim. I am betting that anything over level 50 will take alot of time though, as it did in Skyrim.



#3714
Liamv2

Liamv2
  • Members
  • 19 046 messages
Yeah. Probably.

#3715
Jaison1986

Jaison1986
  • Members
  • 3 317 messages

Yeah. That's what I figure. Quests end eventually. And leveling up just by griding repeatable fetch quests and killing mobs of enemies would take forever.



#3716
DarthSliver

DarthSliver
  • Members
  • 3 335 messages

To our fans who’ve asked: Fallout 4 doesn’t end when the main story is over and there is no level cap. You can keep playing and leveling.

 

Posted on Bethesda's facebook page now.

 

I am sure there is a level cap, it is just too high to reach lol



#3717
Mr.House

Mr.House
  • Members
  • 23 338 messages

i just don't think there is alot to be worried about because it is after all a Bethesda game. To expect to be able to play it without running into an issue is absurd, especially for a Playstation user like me lol. Remember Playstation didn't get Skyrim dlc until it was the last one, I think they didn't want to deal with their patches getting broken by the DLCs is why we had to wait lol. 

That's a big reason TO be concerned. Bethesda games have always been big as an ocean, shallow as a puddle.


  • Dermain aime ceci

#3718
Akrabra

Akrabra
  • Members
  • 2 364 messages

That's a big reason TO be concerned. Bethesda games have always been big as an ocean, shallow as a puddle.

Then why do you pay for them and play them? :o 



#3719
SmilesJA

SmilesJA
  • Members
  • 3 248 messages

To our fans who’ve asked: Fallout 4 doesn’t end when the main story is over and there is no level cap. You can keep playing and leveling.

 

Posted on Bethesda's facebook page now.

 


  • Akrabra et ObserverStatus aiment ceci

#3720
ObserverStatus

ObserverStatus
  • Members
  • 19 046 messages

Then why do you pay for them and play them? :o

"Because, you can create your own custom 3d wife, watch your custom 3d wife die in a nuclear blast, and install a mod that turns you into Mugi. War, war never changes." - Waifu Hunter


  • Dermain aime ceci

#3721
Mr.House

Mr.House
  • Members
  • 23 338 messages

Then why do you pay for them and play them? :o

Because they are big playgrounds that have  potential that modders fulfill.


  • Dermain aime ceci

#3722
Mr.House

Mr.House
  • Members
  • 23 338 messages

Also the fact that we can play after the game means there is hardly going to be nay big variance in endings so probably Skyrim all over again..


  • Dermain aime ceci

#3723
Cyonan

Cyonan
  • Members
  • 19 370 messages

Also the fact that we can play after the game means there is hardly going to be nay big variance in endings so probably Skyrim all over again..

 

On the other hand, it means I'll actually play through to the ending of the main quest rather than stopping at the last mission.



#3724
Fidite Nemini

Fidite Nemini
  • Members
  • 5 739 messages

The Gamescom presentation certainly showed that combat is going to be way more dynamic. Not sure what difficulty settings that was played with, but I can absolutely see that simple run'n'gun #yolostrats is going to be tough work if you'd play on a higher difficulty than what was shows, which roundabout means that the emphasis on smart gameplay is an important thing, unlike the standard FO3 mentality of equip-combatshotgun+powerarmor->GG.

 

Also, environmental firefight hazards such as generators, fuel containers and such is much more prevalent, so with clever positioning and using such opportunities ... much BOOM to be had.

Also, melee VATS seems to be improved some more, which is only a good thing of course (nasty razerblade bat, kekeke).


  • Akrabra aime ceci

#3725
Cyonan

Cyonan
  • Members
  • 19 370 messages

The Gamescom presentation certainly showed that combat is going to be way more dynamic. Not sure what difficulty settings that was played with, but I can absolutely see that simple run'n'gun #yolostrats is going to be tough work if you'd play on a higher difficulty than what was shows, which roundabout means that the emphasis on smart gameplay is an important thing, unlike the standard FO3 mentality of equip-combatshotgun+powerarmor->GG.

 

Also, environmental firefight hazards such as generators, fuel containers and such is much more prevalent, so with clever positioning and using such opportunities ... much BOOM to be had.

Also, melee VATS seems to be improved some more, which is only a good thing of course (nasty razerblade bat, kekeke).

 

It is a Bethesda game, so I'm sure some setup will be broken and let you faceroll combat =P