4356 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Uh-huh. Okay.

Did you see my earlier post on 'video game philosophy'?

Yes, and it is a silly premise. Philopshy in fiction (limiting it to just video games seems arbitrary) is always different than actual, real-life philosophy. Just like science in fiction is always different than actual, real-life science. That doesn't make the concepts discussed somehow above the discourse of logic.

The NCR is, by its own admission, barely holding on by a thread. And the reason why New Vegas is getting any attention is the Legion itself. If the player sides with the NCR and cripples the Legion in the area, how long will the protection and support by the NCR last? The answer is: "as long as it is convenient for them."

[Cyonan]

you need 5 trees and cloth for the sail

 

You also need to be able to build and steer the thing. The vikings were significantly better at both of those things than your average wastelander =P

 

The ship also has to be big enough to carry people and supplies over. Plus, it would be nice if it was large enough that a single storm wouldn't obliterate it.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

You also need to be able to build and steer the thing. The vikings were significantly better at both of those things than your average wastelander =P

 

The ship also has to be big enough to carry people and supplies over. Plus, it would be nice if it was large enough that a single storm wouldn't obliterate it.

you can get all the supplies you need from the sea

[Cyonan]

you can get all the supplies you need from the sea

 

I wonder how radioactive shark tastes.

 

It can't be worse than the radroach meat.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

I wonder how radioactive shark tastes.

 

It can't be worse than the radroach meat.

or 200 year old steak....

[Fast Jimmy]

rule one of airplanes - dont talk about airplanes

seriously though, the major reason people dont talk about them is because they dont need them, hell i wouldnt be surprised if a lot of people dont even know what they are

you should remember however that most of the bombs that fell were low yield so the destruction wasnt that wide spread, functioning aircraft and the infrastructure to build new ones should be mostly intact and seeing how common they seem to be in Boston then someone is obviously doing it, hell they have a airship for ****'s sake. For groups like the BoS and the Enclave building aircraft really shouldnt be an issue....and it also shouldnt be an issue to steal from them

While I agree in principle, you run into logistics problems. If planes are so easy that any place can have them, why haven't we seen any planes? Conversely, if planes are rare, but technology-driven organizations like the Brotherhood or the Enclave have and use them... why are they giving random orphans and families rides all the way across the Atlantic? That doesn't sound like either organization's mindset.

[BabyPuncher]

Yes, and it is a silly premise. Philopshy in fiction (limiting it to just video games seems arbitrary) is always different than actual, real-life philosophy. Just like science in fiction is always different than actual, real-life science. That doesn't make the concepts discussed somehow above the discourse of logic.

 

Just so I understand, you're agreeing the Legion being the 'best' option is a silly premise in real life? That if this sort of situation occured, they would clearly be the wrong choice?

[Master Warder Z_]

While I agree in principle, you run into logistics problems. If planes are so easy that any place can have them, why haven't we seen any planes? Conversely, if planes are rare, but technology-driven organizations like the Brotherhood or the Enclave have and use them... why are they giving random orphans and families rides all the way across the Atlantic? That doesn't sound like either organization's mindset.

 

The NCR supposedly has a handful of Pre War aircraft besides Vertibirds in their arsenal.

 

But in all honesty? I just can't see it feasible for a random group of wastelanders to have aircraft, a society with an infrastructure and various skilled labor and sources of income? Maybe...but random dirtbags? They wouldn't have access to the oh so precious fuel, materials to maintain them or even folks to fly them.

 

That's the real issue with the whole plane concept, its resource requirements outstrip most societies in the Wasteland.

[TobiTobsen]

I wonder how radioactive shark tastes.

 

Probably a bit like Hákarl

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

While I agree in principle, you run into logistics problems. If planes are so easy that any place can have them, why haven't we seen any planes? Conversely, if planes are rare, but technology-driven organizations like the Brotherhood or the Enclave have and use them... why are they giving random orphans and families rides all the way across the Atlantic? That doesn't sound like either organization's mindset.

what did i just say about stealing? and to be honest we dont really know anything about the state of the world outside of a few relatively small areas, for all we know the Russians are colonizing space

[Fast Jimmy]

Just so I understand, you're agreeing the Legion being the 'best' option is a silly premise in real life?

No, I'm stating your comment that video game philosophy is somehow immune to the laws of logic because it's not traditional philosophy is a silly premise.

Logically speaking, the Legion can provide stability and security the NCR cannot. It's over the top to give the game a villain of sorts, but if you take the situation out to its logical conclusion, you'll see that the Legion being in contol over the NCR isn't an evil option, but one that is possibly better for the Mojave, long term.

[Gravisanimi]

Just so I understand, you're agreeing the Legion being the 'best' option is a silly premise in real life? That if this sort of situation occured, they would clearly be the wrong choice?

Fallout as a series is a silly premise in real life.

 

Radiation somehow made scorpions grow bigger. And ants, and knats, and from one of the Fallout 4 trailers, mosquitoes too. Ghouls are somehow immortal because the radiation only sorta killed them.

 

"silly premise in real life" with Fallout is like pairing motor oil and peanut butter at this point.

[Iakus]

 
The NCR is, by its own admission, barely holding on by a thread. And the reason why New Vegas is getting any attention is the Legion itself. If the player sides with the NCR and cripples the Legion in the area, how long will the protection and support by the NCR last? The answer is: "as long as it is convenient for them."

To be fair, as long as Hoover Dam keeps working the NCR will probably at least try to hold on to the Mojave.  A better question would be, if things don't change back home, how much will that protection be worth?

[Master Warder Z_]

To be fair, as long as Hoover Dam keeps working the NCR will probably at least try to hold on to the Mojave.  A better question would be, if things don't change back home, how much will that protection be worth?

 

Not much

 

The NCR's got a civil war coming, imminent starvation within a projected decade and more.

[Fast Jimmy]

what did i just say about stealing? and to be honest we dont really know anything about the state of the world outside of a few relatively small areas, for all we know the Russians are colonizing space

Well, we have a good beat on most of the West Coast politics, covering the Ocean all the way to the Rockies. And we visit the Virginia and Maryland area in the FO3, as well as Pennsylvania in The Pitt. So, I mean... it's not like we are totally IGNORANT of the rest of the U.S. And the U.S. is what I'm focused on, because even if Russia has invented the Warp Drive and is colonizing Alpha Centauri, someone is having to drop these international NPCs off somewhere in the US. Ostensibly somewhere where the plane can be refueled and return home.

My question is... where is that? Because unless it's Texas (where apparently there are radioactive dust storms he size of cities - not ideal for flying planes), I can't really envision another bastion of civilization that could act as the ferry to the rest of the world. Aside from Boston, I guess.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

Well, we have a good beat on most of the West Coast politics, covering the Ocean all the way to the Rockies. And we visit the Virginia and Maryland area in the FO3, as well as Pennsylvania in The Pitt. So, I mean... it's not like we are totally IGNORANT of the rest of the U.S. And the U.S. is what I'm focused on, because even if Russia has invented the Warp Drive and is colonizing Alpha Centauri, someone is having to drop these international NPCs off somewhere in the US. Ostensibly somewhere where the plane can be refueled and return home.

My question is... where is that? Because unless it's Texas (where apparently there are radioactive dust storms he size of cities - not ideal for flying planes), I can't really envision another bastion of civilization that could act as the ferry to the rest of the world. Aside from Boston, I guess.

from what i understand they dont refuel, its a one way trip, after that they strip the plane for parts and use it to build a settlement and its not something that you casually do, its out of desperation

[BabyPuncher]

No, I'm stating your comment that video game philosophy is somehow immune to the laws of logic because it's not traditional philosophy is a silly premise.

Logically speaking, the Legion can provide stability and security the NCR cannot. It's over the top to give the game a villain of sorts, but if you take the situation out to its logical conclusion, you'll see that the Legion being in contol over the NCR isn't an evil option, but one that is possibly better for the Mojave, long term.

 

Uh-huh. Right. 'Logically speaking.' 'Logically speaking' about the Legion. Let's use to logic to logically speak about the logical Legion. Okay.

 

The same logical Legion concept, that, as I correctly pointed out before, I have literally never once in my entire life see or hear someone endorse, let alone take any sort of action to promote. The same 'logical' concept that would get laughed out any courtroom. That logical Legion.

 

...

 

You know, even if everything you said was true, and the Legion really was the best long term option (ignoring that basically every 'wise' character in the game predicts the Legion will crumble when Caesar dies or when they no longer have an enemy to fight), it wouldn't mean anything whatsoever.

 

Stories can never 'prove' anything. A narrator can write and say anything he pleases. I could easily write a story with a society that, say, worships armadillos. Every facet of society is built to please and honor armadillos. And I could easily write them as the most intelligent, moral, successful, and happiest society in the story.

[Fast Jimmy]

To be fair, as long as Hoover Dam keeps working the NCR will probably at least try to hold on to the Mojave. A better question would be, if things don't change back home, how much will that protection be worth?

Exactly. Or, if a band of Raiders is killing people wholesale in the Mojave but leaves the Hoover Dam alone, will they lift a finger?

With the Legion, you know the answer - clearly, YES. They will slaughter anyone who tries to steal, hurt or threaten from even the lowliest member of their group. With the NCR, the answer will be both political and bureacratic - a hesitant maybe if the conditions are right and they can spare the manpower/resources.

When you are staring down the barrel of a gun or the tail of a radscorpion, the empty promises of an ally hundreds of miles away doesn't protect you.

[Master Warder Z_]

 (ignoring that basically every 'wise' character in the game predicts the Legion will crumble when Caesar dies or when they no longer have an enemy to fight), it wouldn't mean anything whatsoever.

 

 

I ignore that because it's a pointless assumption.

 

It either comes from folks who are fighting the Legion, have never interacted personally with the Legion or left the Legion.

 

So...basically it's a view without merit in my eye, Oh my a super mutant from Fallout two said something! It must be true!

 

Never mind the Legion has a process of succession, an entire government back in their controlled territories and a citizenry body.

[Fast Jimmy]

Uh-huh. Right. 'Logically speaking.' 'Logically speaking' about the Legion. Let's use to logic to logically speak about the logical Legion. Okay.

The same logical Legion concept, that, as I correctly pointed out before, I have literally never once in my entire life see or hear someone endorse, let alone take any sort of action to promote. The same 'logical' concept that would get laughed out any courtroom. That logical Legion.

You have never heard of a group that preaches a radical form of collectivism? I'll avoid Godwin's Law to sidestep an obvious one, but there are countless groups throughout history that fight for the glory of the motherland, the betterment of their people or even just killing all the "bad" groups who aren't them. Nationalism, religious fundamentalism, racism... nearly all of them are built on a "take care of our own, kill everyone else" type of mentality. The Legion just takes that to a over-the-top level to give the game a villain, as I stated earlier.

You know, even if everything you said was true, and the Legion really was the best long term option (ignoring that basically every 'wise' character in the game predicts the Legion will crumble when Caesar dies or when they no longer have an enemy to fight), it wouldn't mean anything whatsoever.

Stories can never 'prove' anything. A narrator can write and say anything he pleases. I could easily write a story with a society that, say, worships armadillos. Everything facet is society is built to please and honor armadillos. And I could easily write them as the most intelligent, moral, successful, and happiest society in the story.

So... because it is fiction, it is above logical reproach. That's your argument. And like I said - it is a silly argument to make.

[BabyPuncher]

It either comes from folks who are fighting the Legion, have never interacted personally with the Legion or left the Legion.

 

Rather silly logic there. Obviously, if somehow disagrees the Legion is a good society...they're going to be opposed to the Legion or leave it. That seems like a given. You're literally saying "Their opposition to the Legion is invalid because they oppose the Legion." Completely nonsensical.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

a society that worships armadillos? I HAVE TO WRITE THAT!!!

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

Rather silly logic there. Obviously, if somehow disagrees the Legion is a good society...they're going to be opposed to the Legion or leave it. That seems like a given. You're literally saying "Their opposition to the Legion is invalid because they oppose the Legion." Completely nonsensical.

their words in opposition of the legion are invalid because they oppose the legion, the same can be said about what americans said about the USSR during the cold war and vice versa, germans and brits in WW2 and so on and so on

[BabyPuncher]

So... because it is fiction, it is above logical reproach. That's your argument. And like I said - it is a silly argument to make.

 

Nope. The exact opposite. You're the one advocating the Legion is valid in the real world because it succeeds in the cherry-picked world of fiction where the narrator is in total control and can have anything he wants happen. I'm the one saying that it's irrelevant how successful something is in the cherry picked world of fiction, real world logic still applies.

 

The armadillo society is still absurd no matter how 'logical' their success and morality is in the world of fiction.

[Master Warder Z_]

"Their opposition to the Legion is invalid because they oppose the Legion." 

 

No I am say they are disagreeing because they propose an alternative and therefore their opinion isn't definitive beyond their own bias.

 

Simple, its perspective, the same for any take on a given group, personal, thing, whatever.

 

The NCR opposes the Legion, House Opposes the Legion, etc, They all have differing perspectives, some FEV freak who hasn't even encountered the Legion has only what experience has shown him and rumor, and yet somehow his opinion is to be taken as definitive  in game fact?

 

I'll borrow your line here.

 

 

 Completely nonsensical.