4356 réponses à ce sujet

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

Nope. The exact opposite. You're the one advocating the Legion is valid in the real world because it succeeds in the cherry-picked world of fiction where the narrator is in total control and can have anything he wants happen. I'm the one saying that it's irrelevant how successful something is in the cherry picked world of fiction, real world logic still applies.

 

The armadillo society is still absurd no matter how 'logical' their success and morality is in the world of fiction.

heres the thing though, you cant apply current real logic to a post apocalyptic world, fictional or not

[Fast Jimmy]

Nope. The exact opposite. You're the one advocating the Legion is valid in the real world because it succeeds in the cherry-picked world of fiction where the narrator is in total control and can have anything he wants happen. I'm the one saying that it's irrelevant how successful something is in the cherry picked world of fiction, real world logic still applies.

The armadillo society is still absurd no matter how 'logical' their success and morality is in the world of fiction.

You have yet to state in any way, shape or form why the Legion doesn't offer protection to the Majove. Protection that is less conditional/fair-weather than the NCR and less fickle than House's protection of the Strip (and the Strip alone).

So tell me how, in either cherry picked or real world logic, the Legion does not do what I just laid out.

[BabyPuncher]

Well, for starters, in the real world, an actively expanding empire with significant troops and weapons at it's disposal such as the NCR would never tolerate the sort of psychotic raiders that are part and parcel to the Fallout series. Violent and psychotic criminals do not hold land and power in the face of organization and law in the real world. They're reduced to running and hiding. So the idea of the Legion providing precious 'protection' becomes a rather moot point to begin with.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

Well, for starters, in the real world, an actively expanding empire with significant troops and weapons at it's disposal such as the NCR would never tolerate the sort of psychotic raiders that are part and parcel to the Fallout series. Violent and psychotic criminals do not hold land and power in the face of organization in the real world. They're reduced to running and hiding. So the idea of the Legion providing precious 'protection' becomes a rather moot point to begin with.

thats the thing, the NCR doesnt have the troops or the weapons to properly police its territory exactly because its a over-expanding empire

[Fast Jimmy]

from what i understand they dont refuel, its a one way trip, after that they strip the plane for parts and use it to build a settlement and its not something that you casually do, its out of desperation

I'll concede that it happens and I'll concede they can explain it by waving a lot of magic hands, I'm just saying its flimsy. Just like a group of tribals who regress into Native American stereotypes and language behaviors.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

I'll concede that it happens and I'll concede they can explain it by waving a lot of magic hands, I'm just saying its flimsy. Just like a group of tribals who regress into Native American stereotypes and language behaviors.

what if the only learning materials they had were about native americans?

[Fast Jimmy]

what if the only learning materials they had were about native americans?

What, like episodes of the Lone Ranger or something?

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

What, like episodes of the Lone Ranger or something?

worse, they had the Johnny Depp version

[Fast Jimmy]

worse, they had the Johnny Depp version

Obsidian... how could you be so cruel?

[Cyonan]

Apparently according to Fallout if there is ever nuclear war then half of us will just attempt to mimic whatever old world people or group of people we can find information on, presumably because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

 

All hail the future generation of irradiated Cyonan worshipers who think I'm really a Japanese woman with kleptomania.

[Iakus]

Exactly. Or, if a band of Raiders is killing people wholesale in the Mojave but leaves the Hoover Dam alone, will they lift a finger?

With the Legion, you know the answer - clearly, YES. They will slaughter anyone who tries to steal, hurt or threaten from even the lowliest member of their group. With the NCR, the answer will be both political and bureacratic - a hesitant maybe if the conditions are right and they can spare the manpower/resources.

When you are staring down the barrel of a gun or the tail of a radscorpion, the empty promises of an ally hundreds of miles away doesn't protect you.

What the NCR would provide would likely be what they provide in the game:

 

Islands of relative security amidst a sea of lawlessness.

[Iakus]

Well, for starters, in the real world, an actively expanding empire with significant troops and weapons at it's disposal such as the NCR would never tolerate the sort of psychotic raiders that are part and parcel to the Fallout series. Violent and psychotic criminals do not hold land and power in the face of organization and law in the real world. They're reduced to running and hiding. So the idea of the Legion providing precious 'protection' becomes a rather moot point to begin with.

The FIends were psychotic raiders and they were giving the NCR no end of headaches.  Mainly because while the NCR is expanding it's expanding too fast.  They didn't have the resources to deal with them once and for all.  

 

Unlike, say the Brotherhood, whom they dealt with decisively after a long bloody war, back before this rapid expansion took place.

 

The LEgion does provide protection.  Even Cass, one of the more outspoken opponents of Caesar in the game admits that.  The problem is, if you're not one of those the Legion looks out for, then God help you.

[Commander Rpg]

Don't wake up this guy, he's dead tired.

 

[Fast Jimmy]

Don't wake up this guy, he's dead tired.

Psssh. Typical prison-labor workforce... sleeping on the job!

[Fast Jimmy]

Apparently according to Fallout if there is ever nuclear war then half of us will just attempt to mimic whatever old world people or group of people we can find information on, presumably because it seemed like a good idea at the time.

All hail the future generation of irradiated Cyonan worshipers who think I'm really a Japanese woman with kleptomania.

As much as I love Fallout 2, the idea that three generations of people who are otherwise educated and sophisticated turning into full-on tribal folk, complete with shamanistic religion, seemed like an insane stretch.

[thE-Ro]

leaked footage 

 

http://www.mediafire...4_exclusive.mp4

 

your welcome.

[AventuroLegendary]

Ugh, I feel guilty but the deed is done.

 

Looks like hacking is unchanged. Kind of disappointing but I'm familiar with it.

 

The perk selection has some appeal. Different parts light up and come literally to life when selected to show progress, as a way of fleshing out the game's cartoony character. Consider me cautiously optimistic.

 

 

As much as I love Fallout 2, the idea that three generations of people who are otherwise educated and sophisticated turning into full-on tribal folk, complete with shamanistic religion, seemed like an insane stretch.

 

Especially silly is that they abandon modern firearms and medicine for spears and herbal powder.

 

I'm not sure if Black Isle Studios understands how tribal societies actually work.

[thE-Ro]

Ugh, I feel guilty but the deed is done.

LOL, I felt guilty at first too. Now i've watched that terrible quality footage three times over.

[In Exile]

For the player, sure. All you see is the terror they inflict to their enemies on the NCR side. You are barely ever let into Legion territory in NV and when you do, it is really only their war camp. If an entire nation was judged solely by how their victims of war viewed them, then every country would appear evil.

Fact is, the Legion provided stability to the wasteland. In a brutal and semi-psychotic way, sure. But it is clearly able to continue providing that level of stability, while the NCR is showing clear signs of over-stretching. When the Raiders attack, or the Powder Gang breaks out, or when the Super Mutants go on a rampage... which side is going to better protect the people?

The answer is, of course, House. But barring that, the Legion is, long-term speaking, the more likely choice. The NCR can't continue at the pace it is going and when it falls, it will leave its people even more exposed than ever, because they will assume they have security or backup when they really need it and they just... won't.

They're slavers. They're admitted rapists. Their legal system - as much as they have one - is barbaric in its punishment. They're a military dictatorship. There really isn't anything you can say in their defence apart from them potentially keeping the men they haven't enslaved in relatively more security (from a threat of murder by ravenous horde).

That's not an argument in their favour. The usual defences we would offer in - say - a discussion of whether ancient Rome was "evil" were that the moral values of the time were radically different and judging things from the POV of modern Western morals is just unjustified. But that position doesn't work when we're talking about a time when everyone does have more or less modern Western moral values, just growing up in a dystopia where the state doesn't exist anymore.

[thE-Ro]

They're slavers. They're admitted rapists. Their legal system - as much as they have one - is barbaric in its punishment. They're a military dictatorship. There really isn't anything you can say in their defence apart from them potentially keeping the men they haven't enslaved in relatively more security (from a threat of murder by ravenous horde).

That's not an argument in their favour. The usual defences we would offer in - say - a discussion of whether ancient Rome was "evil" were that the moral values of the time were radically different and judging things from the POV of modern Western morals is just unjustified. But that position doesn't work when we're talking about a time when everyone does have more or less modern Western moral values, just growing up in a dystopia where the state doesn't exist anymore.

Yeah, I think my earlier CL=Isis assertion fits pretty well. Right down to the sex slaves and crucifixions. And the Iraqi army, ahem, I mean the NCR is having trouble stopping them.

[In Exile]

You have yet to state in any way, shape or form why the Legion doesn't offer protection to the Majove. Protection that is less conditional/fair-weather than the NCR and less fickle than House's protection of the Strip (and the Strip alone).

So tell me how, in either cherry picked or real world logic, the Legion does not do what I just laid out.

What the author gets to say is that this form of oppressive government is actually stable. Whether a popular uprising happens, whether the legion can actually succeed in resisting invanders, and whether the political system it develops can function is all decided at the whim of the author. That position isnt per se wrong.

That said, the more serious problem is that even if we accept all this it's still quite obviously evil. It's only tolerable if you happen to think the relative comfort of a minor wealthy elite and the marginal comfort of a more general serf population - counterbalanced against slavery, among other evils - is actually an OK system. And it's hard to say how this is true.

[Master Warder Z_]

Meh it beats getting chewed to death by a mole rat like that Lucas Simms fella

[AventuroLegendary]

That's not an argument in their favour. The usual defences we would offer in - say - a discussion of whether ancient Rome was "evil" were that the moral values of the time were radically different and judging things from the POV of modern Western morals is just unjustified. But that position doesn't work when we're talking about a time when everyone does have more or less modern Western moral values, just growing up in a dystopia where the state doesn't exist anymore.

 

The Legion isn't a faithful replica of any form of Post-Kingdom Rome. Women weren't made into chattel slaves, intellectuals weren't targeted, and homosexuality was quite common, at least before Christianity. Caesar straight up admits they're more like a glorified band of barbarian marauders than anything else. You can even liken them to a few military dictatorships and terrorist groups throughout the 20th century and beyond. 

 

They're a mockery. A bunch of glorified cosplayers with an understandably limited knowledge of history. Sort of like the Khans. It's a pretty common theme in Fallout.

[Giantdeathrobot]

The Legion doesn't really make too much sense to me.

 

They are repeatedly described as a roving army- Ceasar says that he wants New Vegas precisely because it would give him a Rome, a power base from which to build his empire. 

 

Yet, at the same time, they can apparently keep the peace in three State's worth of territory (which is, what, the size of France or something?). In the ridiculously dangerous Fallout world. When most of their soldier are goons with machetes. With no organized logistics or system of laws or solid economic backbone to speak of, beyond roving traders. This same Legion also has vast amounts of manpower, despite its nigh on primitive technology and refusal to use medicine more advanced than healing powder (if you aren't Big C that is). Since apparently everyone in the territories they conquered are primals who couldn't defend themselves, while the West Coast is filled with factions that could put up a good fight, even if not defeat the Legion outright.

 

The whole ''oh, but they can actually can keep the peace in their territory!'' seems like a pretty big cop out, a way to give some light to a bunch of roving rapists and mass murderers led by a delusional manchild. 

 

As for NCR territory being a sea of lawlessness, the Mojave is a war zone, not their heartlands. If the NCR wins, the ending slides are fairly optimistic and show that the region stabilizes and prospers. Goodsprings, Primm, Novac, the Kings, the Followers, Freeside, heck even the BoS can be alive and kicking under their watch. Little indicates that the region faces imminent collapse. And anyway, it's kinda funny that people say that, because one of the very reason that the NCR cannot spare troops to deal with Fiends and bandits is because they use so many soldiers against the Legion.

 

Which IS an idiotic move by Oliver, don't get me wrong, but when one side has machetes and the other has freaking Vertibirds and power armor, you pretty much need to have the latter display ****** poor leadership to give the former a fighting chance.

 

And finally, it's not a dichotomy between NCR and lawnessness and Legion and perfect paradise of security (provided you're a young man). Most towns in New Vegas fare relatively well, Vegas itself is hardly a cesspit apart from the Fiends, and the only three times we see or hear about a town actually get attacked are Nipton, Searchlight and Bitter Springs. All of which are attacked by, guess who, the Legion. The one possible exception are NCR-hired mercenaries threatening Jacobstown.

[Barbarossa2010]

Meh it beats getting chewed to death by a mole rat like that Lucas Simms fella

Boring argument. I'll take the Mole Rat.