Fair enough... but I'd say they didn't go "balls out" or anything of the sort. And given that one of the coolest things I found about Fallout was its different dialogue options based on skills, that is very disheartening that this may be a thing of the past.
Fallout 1-2 and New Vegas, sure. But FO3? I don't see it. At least not to any meaningful degree. There were maybe 2-3 lines per quest.
Taking it a bit further is the part that's tricky.
Previous Fallout games give a set background of being a Vault Dweller, a tribesman, a courier... but it never gave you - never FORCED you - to have emotional attachments to any of it. You could have the mindset of "screw the Vault and everything it stood for, I'm off to explore the world and do things my way." Theres dialogue options to reflect exactly this.
If you are married to someone, you imply both familiarity and at least tacit approval of them. Same for having a child - we are given a character that is provided forced emotional bonds and desires. The player is not free to decide what is important and what is not, but rather has to take the "I want to find/save my spouse and child."
That's fine in a game with little player agency that wants to tell a story... but it works against be idea of creating your own character to explore the world, which is where Bethesda's strengths really lie.
The bold is never what Bestheda wanted to do. I know that there are a lot of people that really like that their games allow for that part. But much like Bioware of old, this was never a design goal. Exploration was a big deal for them, but it wasn't that you got to create your own character in the sense you're thinking about in this post. They just sucked at writing (cf. FO3).
Taking it a bit further is the part that's tricky.
Previous Fallout games give a set background of being a Vault Dweller, a tribesman, a courier... but it never gave you - never FORCED you - to have emotional attachments to any of it. You could have the mindset of "screw the Vault and everything it stood for, I'm off to explore the world and do things my way." Theres dialogue options to reflect exactly this.
If you are married to someone, you imply both familiarity and at least tacit approval of them. Same for having a child - we are given a character that is provided forced emotional bonds and desires. The player is not free to decide what is important and what is not, but rather has to take the "I want to find/save my spouse and child."
That's fine in a game with little player agency that wants to tell a story... but it works against be idea of creating your own character to explore the world, which is where Bethesda's strengths really lie.
I admit I haven't studied the demo stuff as much as I'd like. But is there "I need to find my family" dialogue that's forced?
I think it is interesting for them to step out of their comfort zone and try something else. It may not be what the most "hardcore" fans want, but atleast they want to evolve in some form or another. The writing will probably be all over the place. From those awesome moments to the cringe worthy and dull ones. And they made that choice knowing it would cause problems with some of their fanbase, and yet i respect it. I can't wait to see how it plays out when the game releases.
I admit I haven't studied the demo stuff as much as I'd like. But is there "I need to find my family" dialogue that's forced?
Not really. Alteast not from what we have seen. But it is safe to assume that they will be part of the story beyond the vault, i think so atleast. Why would they let you customize both characters before choosing which one to play and generate a baby based on the couples look just to kill them off 20 minutes later?.
Fallout 1-2 and New Vegas, sure. But FO3? I don't see it. At least not to any meaningful degree. There were maybe 2-3 lines per quest.
Being more like FO3 is what I find disheartening.
Well it will be based on the last games they did, which is Fallout 3 and Skyrim. It may have gotten some influence from New Vegas, but i wouldn't hold my breath on that. I think they have their vision of what Fallout is to them and it isn't the same as many others. But it is all just speculation, we'll see when it releases.
Not really. Alteast not from what we have seen. But it is safe to assume that they will be part of the story beyond the vault, i think so atleast. Why would they let you customize both characters before choosing which one to play and generate a baby based on the couples look just to kill them off 20 minutes later?.
Well, James is customized based on the Lone Wanderer in Fallout 3, and he doesn't get a whole lot of screen time.
Well it will be based on the last games they did, which is Fallout 3 and Skyrim. It may have gotten some influence from New Vegas, but i wouldn't hold my breath on that. I think they have their vision of what Fallout is to them and it isn't the same as many others. But it is all just speculation, we'll see when it releases.
They apparently got some influence from Fallout mods, though. Like Project Nevada
The bold is never what Bestheda wanted to do. I know that there are a lot of people that really like that their games allow for that part. But much like Bioware of old, this was never a design goal. Exploration was a big deal for them, but it wasn't that you got to create your own character in the sense you're thinking about in this post. They just sucked at writing (cf. FO3).
Being more like FO3 is what I find disheartening.
What have you seen that has led you to come to this conclusion? From what I've seen it looks like it has less in common with both F3 and NV and seems to be doing it's own thing. The only thing I'm still concerned about is the lack of skill checks in the E3 footage. The dialogue wheel seems designed to not allow that sort of mechanic and appears to be more like Mass Effect. That said, my main concern going into E3 was that Fallout 4 would do away with the skill points and SPECIAL altogether in favor of the more user friendly leveling system that was in Skyrim.
And it's own thing is a voiced protagonist with a small amount of lines. Which indicates less skill/attribute-dependent dialogue options. Which is like FO3. Which is where my statement of it being like FO3 came from.What have you seen that has led you to come to this conclusion? From what I've seen it looks like it has less in common with both F3 and NV and seems to be doing it's own thing.
We haven't seen much in terms of the skill/SPECIAL system, but if they are going with a 1-10 rating of all SPECIAL attributes and skills, I say Hallelujah. Much better than the 1-10 SPECIAL system that averages scores of 5 coupling with 1-300% skills. Is there an intuitive way to tell if a 150% skill in Small Guns is going to be effective against an enemy with 8 Agility? What's the range there?The only thing I'm still concerned about is the lack of skill checks in the E3 footage. The dialogue wheel seems designed to not allow that sort of mechanic and appears to be more like Mass Effect. That said, my main concern going into E3 was that Fallout 4 would do away with the skill points and SPECIAL altogether in favor of the more user friendly leveling system that was in Skyrim.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
And it's own thing is a voiced protagonist with a small amount of lines. Which indicates less skill/attribute-dependent dialogue options. Which is like FO3. Which is where my statement of it being like FO3 came from.
How is 13,000 a small amount? And how is this like FO3? They've never done it before.
Didn't you read earlier that Mass Effect 1 and 2 only had 20-25k TOTAL? And ME3 had 40k total. And yet those are the first RPGs with a VO protagonist.
There aren't that many games to measure this by. Yet Witcher 3 comes out and you're all "Dude, that's lame. Geralt speaks way more. Where's my sense of "choice"?"
Wtf. I appreciate you being skeptical and holding off, but this is a bit much.
And it's own thing is a voiced protagonist with a small amount of lines. Which indicates less skill/attribute-dependent dialogue options. Which is like FO3. Which is where my statement of it being like FO3 came from.
We haven't seen much in terms of the skill/SPECIAL system, but if they are going with a 1-10 rating of all SPECIAL attributes and skills, I say Hallelujah. Much better than the 1-10 SPECIAL system that averages scores of 5 coupling with 1-300% skills. Is there an intuitive way to tell if a 150% skill in Small Guns is going to be effective against an enemy with 8 Agility? What's the range there?
I'd rather know that everyone starts out with attribute values of 1 and that skills can be raised 10 levels instead of having to extrapolate out how much over 100% my character's skill needs to be to ensure they hit 100% of the time.
But it's not like F3, it's different. I know F3 didn't have as many skill checks as NV or the older Fallout games, but it did have them. With this new system we don't actually know if they are even in the game.
How is 13,000 a small amount? And how is this like FO3? They've never done it before.
Didn't you read earlier that Mass Effect 1 and 2 only had 20-25k TOTAL? And ME3 had 40k total. And yet those are the first RPGs with a VO protagonist.
There aren't that many games to measure this by. Yet Witcher 3 comes out and you're all "Dude, that's lame. Geralt speaks way more. Where's my sense of "choice"?"
Wtf. I appreciate you being skeptical and holding off, but this is a bit much.
But it's not like F3, it's different. I know F3 didn't have as many skill checks as NV or the older Fallout games, but it did have them. With this new system we don't actually know if they are even in the game.
I would hazard a guess that Bethesda might have created factions for Fallout 4 ala New Vegas.. at least I hope so, but I'm not counting on them holding a candle to that of New Vegas.
But it's not like F3, it's different. I know F3 didn't have as many skill checks as NV or the older Fallout games, but it did have them. With this new system we don't actually know if they are even in the game.
Also if you use the Specials calculator that was linked a few pages ago and move your cursor over charisma it says it helps with speech checks. And there is no reason they should remove Specials from dialogue. I am still bothered by the dialogue wheel/tree though, i want to know exactly what i am saying.
Also if you use the Specials calculator that was linked a few pages ago and move your cursor over charisma it says it helps with speech checks. And there is no reason they should remove Specials from dialogue. I am still bothered by the dialogue wheel/tree though, i want to know exactly what i am saying.
Personally hope the whole thing with the protagonist being alive after 200 years is related to being placed into Cryogenic sleep as that whole 'android' angle doesn't sit right with me.
Agreed. I have many concerns with the voiced protagonist... I do NOT want to play Deus Ex: Boston.
I'd like the option to turn off the main character's voice. I'm sure that will be one of the first mods out if it isn't in the game on launch.
I'd like the option to turn off the main character's voice. I'm sure that will be one of the first mods out if it isn't in the game on launch.
So you wanna have a toggle for that? 
Care to provide any background on that? The blank slate prisoner origin for all TES games seems to go against that concept.
It's a theme park. Let me put it this way: character customization does not always mean that the game is designed to be that type of RPG, though players who play those types of RPGs very much use that type of customization. Saint's row isn't an RPG just because it has one of the best CC's around.
With TES, look for the actual support for roleplay in game (not mental fantasy). There's almost none, post-Morrowind. And in Morrowind it's largely limited to exclusive quest content, which was wholesale dropped.
When FO3 rolls around, you get a preset (but terrible) background with ranges of morality. And Skyrim, again, is in the TES mold of the character model being a superflous exploration vehicle.
It's exactly like Bioware before ME1, actually. VO was never a design shift, their blatantly contradictory marketing rhetoric for DA:O aside.
Agreed. I have many concerns with the voiced protagonist... I do NOT want to play Deus Ex: Boston.
If you want to dissuade me from VO... don't analogize to amazing games. 
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