569 réponses à ce sujet

[Vanilka]

For those of you who claim to have not known that ME had the option to play both genders, I feel compelled to ask... do you *only* look at the cover of the box before deciding whether or not to buy a game?

I mean, I didn't play any ME games until halfway between 2 and 3, and I never saw any cover until much later (because I buy all games digitally), and I never even play as a female whether the option is present or not, but I *still* knew you could play both genders.

Who said anything about buying stuff? Like, yeah, before I decide to buy something, I like to know more about it, but the thing is, how do you make me check out a product in the first place? And if all you ever see on covers, in trailers and in gameplay showcases is yet another bald rugged dude with a gun, then that's what you're gonna assume is in the game. End of the story. Back when Mass Effect was a new game, I didn't even use to follow BioWare like I do now. Nowadays I'd probably know better because I started actively following at least some of my favourite companies. I still don't have the time and energy to follow the gaming industry in general and read about the contents of every new game, so I mostly pick up games that manage to pique my interest from trailers, screenshots, etc. You simply have to start somewhere. And while I don't mind picking up games with a generic-looking guy protagonist as that says nothing about the quality of the game itself, I may very easily decide that I'm in no rush to play it right now. Which is exactly what happened with Mass Effect back when it was released.

[aoibhealfae]

I didn't know FemShep exist until last November when I was in a Dragon Age discussion during NaNoWriMo write-in and then someone chimes in "It's like Shepard's dance".... .... ... then I got home and start downloading ME1 out of curiosity. I never knew I could play a customizable Shepard who is a non-silent playable character until after I installed the game. Figures...

 

Normally its cheaper and easier for me to buy digital copies these days. Steam is godsend but even in here, there's absolutely nothing on the page about me being able to play as a female Commander Shepard. It's all about Sheploo. If I didn't have a conversation with my writer's circle about female protagonists in video games, normally I would never take a second look at it. That was a 'lost sale'.... and marketing fail, right there.

 

Its like they're ashamed that they have female main protagonist... as if the initial badass imagery would be diminished if they choose to market Shepard as a woman... this is strange

[Vanilka]

Marketing is a problem. Certain people in the industry believe that women simply don't sell, but how do we know that if few companies try? And if a game fails while having a male protagonist, why is it never blamed on his gender? Jim Sterling made an interesting video (contains strong language) about how some publishers refuse to make games with female protagonists or put them on the cover despite the very creators and makers of the games themselves actually wanting to, which is alarming. Basically, this is publishers telling game writers and developers: "No, you can't make the games you want to make and, no, you definitely can't put what you want on the cover of your own game." And that's bad no matter what the issue in question is.

 

And while I understand they just try to be successful in their marketing, isn't it still stupid if you completely and utterly fail to market your product to people that are very possibly a big part of your intended audience? I mean, the content has been there all along in ME. Together with all that story and characters, etc., we have an option to play a female character and also a love interest specifically for her, but you'd have to dig pretty deep to learn about it. It's funny that the first time I heard about Kaidan Alenko was in relation of him becoming bisexual for manShep. (Yeah, I was pretty late to the party.) It's especially sad because femShep turned out spectacular, imho. I don't think that I've ever played a female character that gets less bullshit just for being a woman than that. Maybe it's because she was not supposed to be more than Sheploo in a skirt, so to speak, which helped get many issues out of the way that could arise while trying to make her a woman first and a character second, like Rhaenyss said.

[Vanilka]

Sorry if the formatting is messed up, I've been having some serious issues with this site in the past two days and can't edit it at the moment.

 

EDIT: Fixed. Sorry once again.

[Monica21]

I didn't know FemShep exist until last November when I was in a Dragon Age discussion during NaNoWriMo write-in and then someone chimes in "It's like Shepard's dance".... .... ... then I got home and start downloading ME1 out of curiosity. I never knew I could play a customizable Shepard who is a non-silent playable character until after I installed the game. Figures...

 

Normally its cheaper and easier for me to buy digital copies these days. Steam is godsend but even in here, there's absolutely nothing on the page about me being able to play as a female Commander Shepard. It's all about Sheploo. If I didn't have a conversation with my writer's circle about female protagonists in video games, normally I would never take a second look at it. That was a 'lost sale'.... and marketing fail, right there.

 

Its like they're ashamed that they have female main protagonist... as if the initial badass imagery would be diminished if they choose to market Shepard as a woman... this is strange

 

Wow. That's amazing. My purchase could certainly be described as a "lost sale" too, considering I bought it for $5 in an Origin sale. Granted, paid full price for the DLCs, but still.

 

I think my other issue, which I hope they correct in Andromeda, is using an actual model for the protagonist's face. If they used one for the male and not for the female, their priorities were clearly not on females buying the game. Surprising, considering the resources they put into FemShep, even in ME1. The talk with Kaidan where he's still kind of feeling out the relationship and asks if you take that much interest in all your crewmates and your response is, "No. No I don't." And the voice is great, because even FemShep sounds a bit surprised. And the scene when the Normandy is grounded and Ashley/Kaidan pulls Shepard up works much better with a FemShep. Not that I doubt Ashley has some guns, but enough to pull a male Shepard up hard enough that it would make him off-balance? Nah.

 

I think maybe the development team was surprised at the level of popularity FemShep got, but the default FemShep is just not good enough for me. Especially not when compared to the custom head model and textures Sheploo got. ME3 is almost worse, because FemShep just looks like a cartoon character. (And why can't I use the hair across any character without modding it?! That's just dumb!)

 

So yes, Bioware. Since you're developing Andromeda now, if you're going to do custom head models for the protagonist, do them for both genders.

[aoibhealfae]

.....okay, I am geeking since the vid kept looping FFIX's Jester Moon. lol

 

Strangely enough, Mass Effect series is the only Bioware game where I really feel a gender-neutral character really shine as female. And there was this strange excitement being the female main character in a traditionally male-dominated career... 

Spoiler

.....Alliance ratio... 

I know, a lot of people didn't give a d*mn about gender choice of their character but I like that FemShep is an anomaly everywhere she goes. Even in-game, little things like this do stick up like a sore thumb in a good way. Yes, being an openly gay male Shepard in ME3 is revolutionary but FemShep is also defying conventions from the start of the trilogy. And I am tired seeing female roles being relegated as sexier/manic-pixie primary/secondary NPCs and these tropes exist in ME trilogy but they became less prominent when the main character is a woman herself. Its really hard to objectify her in-game... you'd think she would have it easier if she unleash more of her femme fatale qualities.

 

I am still reeling with the fact that I can play as a female Southeast Asian space marine.... which to date never happen in scifi-verse... ever... she didn't exist.. and Bioware filled this niche for me and they didn't know it. So yes, all these does appeal to me as a consumer even though I am an outlier.

 

But I won't be surprised that they would just promote the badass ubermale counterpart. They know their own demographics and I don't think the marketing are going to change anyway.

[Vanilka]

But it's not just femShep. I mean, look at the world she lives in. There are plenty of female marines, politicians, officers, etc. I feel like BW really didn't discriminate there and I'm really happy about that. And it's about time as we do have female soldiers, policewomen, fire fighters, pilots, scientists, astronauts, etc., etc. in real life and they are not some sort of rarity like some people like to believe. The franchise allows you to enjoy it without NPCs being prejudiced and being like, "Wow, she does all these things, she's not like the other girls," which is, by the way, an extremely narrow-minded mindset. We also have a wide range of armour to choose from in ME3 so everybody can choose whether to go for skin-tight, like your character, aoibhealfae, or heavier stuff. (I prefer the heavier armours myself and am really happy with armours like Ariake or Hahne-Kedar.) Now give me some male dancers in some of those bars present throughout the whole franchise and I'm satisfied. I mean, sure, there are things that are uneven, like when you compare the amount of straight romances for manShep and femShep. Miranda's butt in everybody's face instead of e.g. making it more in context of what was happening or romance specific like in case of Kaidan - the way they did it with him was really smart, imho. But all in all, this franchise has a really great thing going, but it took it a really long time to finally proudly announce its female protag, who to me is simply the star of the franchise.

 

EDIT: We could use more female aliens, though. I was so excited to see Nyreen and Bakara. I was like, "OMG! Female krogans! They exist! Female turians! THEY EXIST!" I think it would make the world more realistic, too. It's so strange to ever only meet males of a species without any particular reason for it to be that way. Like, with Salarians we know that only perhaps 20% of their population is female and they have a very specific position in their society, but with the other species it's just odd when they miss completely.

[Andrew Lucas]

The whole cover thing is nonsense, when you want to buy something that grabbed a bit of your attention, you do some research, unless you're mind blowing rich and buys whatever that appears right in front of you. Basically every gamer with decent knowledge knows Mass Effect or any Bioware game features a male or female protagonist. And if the "generic" , "rugged" (cause military) and "white guy" *sighs* from a simple box art can keep you away from buying the product, you're just overly nitpicky, but if you did your research, you would see Female Shepard featured in many trailers, coverages, interviews and etc, the same can also be said about Dragon Age. Heck, you can even switch covers in ME3.

Bioware also needs to sell their product so that you can get more content from them in the future, so obviously they need to attend the masses firstly, but with their current strategy, I say they're doing a pretty good job, with the latest trailer made by them having the female Inquisitor as the focus.

[aoibhealfae]

Bioware is hardly an international household name and I do notice how western scifi video games have always skewed to a default male protagonists. Unlike scifi, it was common for me to find more gender-neutral protagonists and playable female protagonists with fantasy RPGs. By right, the first impressions of Mass Effect series to anyone is about this ubermasculine tall brooding guy in armor. The thing is, there's several thousand video games that fit perfectly in that mould and I'm hardly a hardcore gamer. I'd admit, I never would have played Mass Effect if I hadn't first played Swtor and Dragon Age series and in fact, I first found out about Mass Effect back in 2007 when it was first banned by my kiasu neighbour. That piqued my interest then... only for a bit. 

 

I don't play games solely because I can play female characters (I've abhorred Lara Croft-types character for long time) but it is a bonus when I do find a quality female protagonists with quality narrative in games. And I find that its a lot easier to find more quality badass main female scifi characters on tv. I could always do a marathon on Battlestar Galactica or Babylon 5 or Fringe. 

[Vanilka]

"rugged" (cause military)

 

I've already explained myself, so I'm not going to do it again. However, I just hope this part is not aimed at me, because you'd be missing the point and putting words in my mouth.

 

As for BW's current advertising, yeah, I do think they've improved starting with ME3. I did state that. Nevertheless, the topic of this discussion is whether to advertise a male or female character, hence my posts about my past experiences. I find it helps a discussion when you explain your opinion.

[Andrew Lucas]

I've already explained myself, so I'm not going to do it again. However, I just hope this part is not aimed at me, because you'd be missing the point and putting words in my mouth.

As for BW's current advertising, yeah, I do think they've improved starting with ME3. I did state that. Nevertheless, the topic of this discussion is whether to advertise a male or female character, hence my posts about my past experiences. I find it helps a discussion when you explain your opinion.

Yes, the "generic" soldier poster guy was directed at you because you mentioned it, but the marketing part was towards the topic as a whole.

[Vanilka]

Yes, the "generic" soldier poster guy was directed at you because you mentioned it, but the marketing part was towards the topic as a whole.

 

Fair enough. However, I never said that being rugged had anything to do with military. I have no idea why you inserted that. You actually inserted quite a few new words in there. That quite surprised me and that's why I wasn't sure whether you were talking to me in the first place. Anyway, military was never my problem. I was referring to how one type of guy, especially appearance-wise and sometimes personality-wise, is recycled again and again. You can dislike me saying that, but that's about it. I also said that it doesn't stop me from checking those games out or eventually buying them. Hell, I've bought games that had nothing but a severed limb on the cover, etc. However, that doesn't mean that many times the same thing can't get old to me.

[Monica21]

... if you did your research, you would see Female Shepard featured in many trailers, coverages, interviews and etc...

 

Can you point me to a Bioware trailer or any kind of coverage that featured a female Shepard for ME1? Honestly curious.

[Andrew Lucas]

Fair enough. However, I never said that being rugged had anything to do with military. I have no idea why you inserted that. You actually inserted quite a few new words in there. That quite surprised me and that's why I wasn't sure whether you were talking to me in the first place. Anyway, military was never my problem. I was referring to how one type of guy, especially appearance-wise and sometimes personality-wise, is recycled again and again. You can dislike me saying that, but that's about it. I also said that it doesn't stop me from checking those games out or eventually buying them. Hell, I've bought games that had nothing but a severed limb on the cover, etc. However, that doesn't mean that many times the same thing can't get old to me.

"Who said anything about buying stuff? Like, yeah, before I decide to buy something, I like to know more about it, but the thing is, how do you make me check out a product in the first place? And if all you ever see on covers, in trailers and in gameplay showcases is yet another bald rugged dude with a gun, then that's what you're gonna assume is in the game."

Because Male Shepard is part of the military, and there's standards to follow, like shaving your head for males. Now, being rugged just comes off as natural, even FemShep is one in the switchable cover.

Can you point me to a Bioware trailer or any kind of coverage that featured a female Shepard for ME1? Honestly curious.

Last time I checked, the following games had, because I never said she appeared in the getgo, and that comes back to my point about doing some research if you already don't know that there's a FemShep since she gets the same content as Male Shepard and despite being very popular.

[Vanilka]

"Who said anything about buying stuff? Like, yeah, before I decide to buy something, I like to know more about it, but the thing is, how do you make me check out a product in the first place? And if all you ever see on covers, in trailers and in gameplay showcases is yet another bald rugged dude with a gun, then that's what you're gonna assume is in the game."

Because Male Shepard is part of the military, and there's standards to follow, like shaving your head for males. Now, being rugged just comes off as natural, even FemShep is one in the switchable cover.

 

Except that doesn't happen in the Mass Effect universe. You have all kinds of hairstyles to pick from for your character and Kaidan is not shaved, either. By that logic, ME3's default femShep's hairstyle wouldn't be what it is, either. And especially Ashley's wouldn't be what it is. So, no, it has nothing to do with military.

[von uber]

Can you point me to a Bioware trailer or any kind of coverage that featured a female Shepard for ME1? Honestly curious.

 

It was only in ME3 that you had (1?) online trailer for femshep. Plus the beauty contest.

 

Female Protags don't sell?

 

 

Over 1 million sales already for a fairly obscure indie game, and it's not even finished.

[PlatonicWaffles]

I want a mixture of both that alternates. Like, one trailer shows the male pathfinder, the other shows the female, then the male, then the female, then a launch trailer with them both. Also a reversible cover should they be featured prominently upon the box.

[N7Jamaican]

I think they are going to market both this time around.  I think both would get equal amount of time in the limelight.

[Monica21]

Last time I checked, the following games had, because I never said she appeared in the getgo, and that comes back to my point about doing some research if you already don't know that there's a FemShep since she gets the same content as Male Shepard and despite being very popular.

 

What you said was, "if you did your research, you would see Female Shepard featured in many trailers, coverages, interviews and etc." She wasn't though, was she? She wasn't even mentioned, let alone featured. I mean, these are the days when I hung out on RPG websites and there was no mention of a female Shepard in anything I read from posters there or in links to Bioware's site. Zilch. Nada. I was hanging out on the old Obsidian forums playing NWN2 reading people's posts about Mass Effect and didn't see a mention of a female protagonist.

 

Don't blame gamers who want to play as female characters for not doing enough research about a sci-fi kinda RPG with heavy shooter elements and a widely (probably exclusively) featured male protagonist for not knowing there was an option to play as female. Not to mention that what I remember is that the game was marketed as a shooter with some dialogue and not necessarily as an RPG.

 

I mean, seriously. Point me to a single, accessible article about ME1 that mentions the option to play as a female protagonist. When I say "accessible" I don't mean "Joe's Blog" I mean an article from a publication or website that would have been widely read in 2008.

[Andrew Lucas]

Except that doesn't happen in the Mass Effect universe. You have all kinds of hairstyles to pick from for your character and Kaidan is not shaved, either. By that logic, ME3's default femShep's hairstyle wouldn't be what it is, either. And especially Ashley's wouldn't be what it is. So, no, it has nothing to do with military.

It's either shaved or a short hair, as seen by many NPCs, now, if the Alliance still uses such standard it can be debatable, but since we don't know really for sure, and how the N7 Program also works, it's totally justifiable, just use your common sense

Women don't need to shave theirs..... geez.

What you said was, "if you did your research, you would see Female Shepard featured in many trailers, coverages, interviews and etc." She wasn't though, was she? She wasn't even mentioned, let alone featured. I mean, these are the days when I hung out on RPG websites and there was no mention of a female Shepard in anything I read from posters there or in links to Bioware's site. Zilch. Nada. I was hanging out on the old Obsidian forums playing NWN2 reading people's posts about Mass Effect and didn't see a mention of a female protagonist.
 
Don't blame gamers who want to play as female characters for not doing enough research about a sci-fi kinda RPG with heavy shooter elements and a widely (probably exclusively) featured male protagonist for not knowing there was an option to play as female. Not to mention that what I remember is that the game was marketed as a shooter with some dialogue and not necessarily as an RPG.
 
I mean, seriously. Point me to a single, accessible article about ME1 that mentions the option to play as a female protagonist. When I say "accessible" I don't mean "Joe's Blog" I mean an article from a publication or website that would have been widely read in 2008.

There is, from VA featurettes, Interviews and game trailers. Again, do some research.

[Monica21]

There is, from VA featurettes, Interviews and game trailers. Again, do some research.

 

Hey, you're the one telling me they exist. I'm just asking you to prove your point. And let's be honest here. If Bioware had clearly shown that there was an option for both genders, then I would have had reason to do research. You're telling me I should have researched a game I wasn't all that interested in to find out that there was a female protagonist. Gamers shouldn't have to research that. It should be clear from the marketing and you have a bunch of female gamers telling you it was not clear from the marketing. Stop condescending to us.

[Vanilka]

It's either shaved or a short hair, as seen by many NPCs, now, if the Alliance still uses such standard it can be debatable, but since we don't know really for sure, and how the N7 Program also works, it's totally justifiable, just use your common sense

Women don't need to shave theirs..... geez.

 

You're telling me to use common sense? I'm using what I've learnt about the universe from the game while you're just making up excuses for why something is a certain way without being able to back it up with any in-game example. Like, come on. And, yeah, we know next to nothing about the N7 program from the game. How convenient to explain it that way. However, I actually read a wiki on it a while ago, which collects info from the books and comics also, and there was nothing about N7 attire or hairstyles, as far as I remember. Not a thing.

 

Also, nobody said anything about women shaving heads, while that's of course an option. However, I can guarantee that no real female combatant would wear loose hair like Ashley does in ME3 in battle. First of all, that's how it works in real military, which you so wanted to use as an explanation before. Second of all, as a woman with long hair, I can tell you that would be really darn inconvenient while just exercising, let alone in combat or while wearing a helmet. That's why buns were invented. So, wouldn't that be a little of a double standard if the rules you mention applied to guys only?

[prosthetic soul]

There are women getting beaten and stoned to death in a third world country and people are complaining about there not being fair representation of females for video game covers. 

 

Third wave feminism pisses. me. off.

[Monica21]

There are women getting beaten and stoned to death in a third world country and people are complaining about there not being fair representation of females for video game covers. 

 

Third wave feminism pisses. me. off.

 

I guess since you're pissed off about this then you're no longer pissed off about the ME3 endings, right? Because apparently someone can only be upset about one thing at a time.

[Vanilka]

There are women getting beaten and stoned to death in a third world country and people are complaining about there not being fair representation of females for video game covers. 
 
Third wave feminism pisses. me. off.

 
Yes, because that's a valid reason to stop caring about everything else in the world. Why don't you stop harping about ME3's ending then if there are more important and pressing issues in the world?

EDIT: Damnit, Monica21, you beat me to it, lol. How dare you?

 

EDIT2: We were having quite a chill discussion until somebody just HAD TO try to persuade us that they're right and we're wrong and our experiences and opinions are completely irrelevant and don't matter. Let that sink in for a bit, Chrono.