Yes, because that's a valid reason to stop caring about everything else in the world. Why don't you stop harping about ME3's ending then if there are more important and pressing issues in the world?
My concern is actually valid though. Yours isn't. And besides, there isn't a problem out in the real world that is analogous to what I'm complaining about.
You're telling me to use common sense? I'm using what I've learnt about the universe from the game while you're just making up excuses for why something is a certain way without being able to back it up with any in-game example. Like, come on. And, yeah, we know next to nothing about the N7 program from the game. How convenient to explain it that way. However, I actually read a wiki on it a while ago, which collects info from the books and comics also, and there was nothing about N7 attire or hairstyles, as far as I remember. Not a thing.
Also, nobody said anything about women shaving heads, while that's of course an option. However, I can guarantee that no real female combatant would wear loose hair like Ashley does in ME3 in battle. First of all, that's how it works in real military, which you so wanted to use as an explanation before. Second of all, as a woman with long hair, I can tell you that would be really darn inconvenient while just exercising, let alone in combat or while wearing a helmet. That's why buns were invented. So, wouldn't that be a little of a double standard if the rules you mention applied to guys only?
The whole thing about hair is weird and presumes an American style of military cuts anyway. Both men and women have to have their hair off the collar. For women this usually means a bun and for men it's just high and tight. But, check out the bad assery of females serving in the Israeli military. Lots of long, lovely braids there, and they're doing just fine. So I think the standard is still the same, but I the haircut is unlikely to have anything to do with being an N7.
My concern is actually valid though. Yours isn't. And besides, there isn't a problem out in the real world that is analogous to what I'm complaining about.
You do not have a valid concern. You have a very narrow worldview and don't seem to grasp the wider nature of what women face all over the world and every day. Not to mention that men are getting beaten and stoned to death too. I mean, it's not exclusive to women. There are all kinds of human rights violations all over the world. You can choose what you want to be upset about. Maybe you've found your calling and need to go to a third world country and fix things. If you're at all good with technology and restoration maybe you should head to Baghdad to help them digitize their ancient collection of manuscripts to, in part, save them from ISIS. They have thousands of years of history that they are trying to preserve.
I'm choosing to post about this on an internet forum for several reasons, all of which you are probably unable to comprehend. First, I can because I live in a country with easy access to the internet. Second, I have a good job and can afford the next Mass Effect game so I will be playing it. Third, it's a change, however small, that I might be able to effect. Just because I'm making a post here about making female protagonists more accessible doesn't mean I'm not also making a donation to help stop human rights violations.
The assumption that women who are posting about a female protagonist in a video game is somehow a "lesser" form of feminism or less deserving of attention or that we are, in some way, turning a blind eye to everything else that women face all over the world is insulting and says far more about you than about us.
EDIT2: We were having quite a chill discussion until somebody just HAD TO try to persuade us that they're right and we're wrong and our experiences and opinions are completely irrelevant and don't matter. Let that sink in for a bit, Chrono.
Dude is Forrest Gump, minus everything that makes him charming and likeable. He won't get it.
My concern is actually valid though. Yours isn't. And besides, there isn't a problem out in the real world that is analogous to what I'm complaining about.
Oh my god, he actually attached a gif of a mic drop to it. Dear lord. 
"I'm right and you're wrong! Only my problems matter!"
Amazing argument. You've totally got me, man.
The whole thing about hair is weird and presumes an American style of military cuts anyway. Both men and women have to have their hair off the collar. For women this usually means a bun and for men it's just high and tight. But, check out the bad assery of females serving in the Israeli military. Lots of long, lovely braids there, and they're doing just fine. So I think the standard is still the same, but I the haircut is unlikely to have anything to do with being an N7.
Yeah, I don't really have a problem with the game's hairstyles. (Although I am bothered by Ashley's change because it seems very out of character for her in comparison to who she was in ME1 and ME2, but that's a different issue.) My point just was that the poster kept blaming Sheploo's appearance on some rules that possibly do not even exist within the universe we're talking about and making excuses.
You make a good point about different countries having different standards, though. I still can't imagine wearing one of those space helmets with my hair loose or semi-loose. (Imagine it gets in your eyes or something and you can't get it out, ahh.) But I'm not really complaining about my femShep being able to have cool hair without it bothering her.
Yeah, I don't really have a problem with the game's hairstyles. (Although I am bothered by Ashley's change because it seems very out of character for her in comparison to who she was in ME1 and ME2, but that's a different issue.) My point just was that the poster kept blaming Sheploo's appearance on some rules that possibly do not even exist within the universe we're talking about and making excuses.
You make a good point about different countries having different standards, though. I still can't imagine wearing one of those space helmets with my hair loose or semi-loose. (Imagine it gets in your eyes or something and you can't get it out, ahh.) But I'm not really complaining about my femShep being able to have cool hair without it bothering her.
I completely agree about ME3 Ashley. I'm not sure if the devs felt there was some need to sex her up because of Miranda, but ME1 Ashley felt much more authentic. And yeah, we don't have an Alliance dress code so there's no way to know if the hair conforms to standards. I guess we have to assume that all hair choices do otherwise they wouldn't be in the game.
And agreed about the loose hair and the helmets. I wouldn't say no to an ME4 braid though! 
I completely agree about ME3 Ashley. I'm not sure if the devs felt there was some need to sex her up because of Miranda, but ME1 Ashley felt much more authentic. And yeah, we don't have an Alliance dress code so there's no way to know if the hair conforms to standards. I guess we have to assume that all hair choices do otherwise they wouldn't be in the game.
And agreed about the loose hair and the helmets. I wouldn't say no to an ME4 braid though!
That's funny, though, if they did. I've always thought Ashley was ridiculously beautiful in ME1. I don't think she needed that upgrade. Well, besides improved meshes and textures, of course. There's actually a wonderful mod that "restores" her original appearance and leaves her hair down when she's in casual or during romance scenes. That's the best of both worlds, imho.
.... oh gee, wanting more women representation in games isn't the same as us helpless muslim women in the third world countries. Yes, 'us', I am a muslim woman in a 'third world' country, btw. And no, I'm not being under constant threat of getting stoned or beaten to death everyday. And what sort of 'third worlder' am I since I have internet and play video games during her spare time? What am I doing here.. talk about women representation in gaming at an online forum when I should be going out with a huge placard that say "stop oppressing us patriarchy!" because clearly my feminism priority isn't in the right place...
I think they are going to market both this time around. I think both would get equal amount of time in the limelight.
They've already made that poster/concept art/thing with both a male and female character on it, so I'd say that's a promising start.
Dude is Forrest Gump, minus everything that makes him charming and likeable. He won't get it.
And you're Hilary Clinton multiplied by a hundred times into everything that makes her despicable and reviled. Your point?
.... oh gee, wanting more women representation in games isn't the same as us helpless muslim women in the third world countries. Yes, 'us', I am a muslim woman in a 'third world' country, btw. And no, I'm not being under constant threat of getting stoned or beaten to death everyday. And what sort of 'third worlder' am I since I have internet and play video games during her spare time? What am I doing here.. talk about women representation in gaming at an online forum when I should be going out with a huge placard that say "stop oppressing us patriarchy!" because clearly my feminism priority isn't in the right place...
Except.....I never used the word "Muslim" in my post. Way to assume though. Way to really show your prejudice. Way to REALLY jump to that conclusion. This just in: You don't have to be a Muslim woman in a third world country to be beaten and stoned to death. More at 11:00. And in all actuality, the fact that you ARE complaining about something so trivial does say more about you than it does about me. Because you are taking it for granted.
Women in third world countries don't give a damn if there's a female character on a video game cover or not. They're just trying to make a living. Trying to support their families. But here you are making a huge fuss over something that is quintessentially a non-issue.
"B-But you're complaining about the ME 3 ending!"
I am. But I don't do so under the guise of some pseudo-ideological nonsense about equality or righteousness or making the world a better place.
Except that nobody brought up feminism or other "pseudo-ideological nonsense" until you did. Use your head a little. Or do you really feel so threatened by having to share your playground and toys with us girls? Why is it such a problem for you that we care about entertainment we are involved with and that is being in part made for us, too? I don't understand. And I don't understand why you're so aggressive about it, either.
And I don't know how those poor women you speak of care about your ranting about ME3's ending, either. What you don't realise is that your logic fails because you compare two things that have absolutely nothing to do with each other and make a big point about how we shouldn't care about our fun because "Hurr durr, people have it worse somewhere in the world!" Yeah, dude, I had zero idea without your help. How is my not caring about video games going to help them anyway? Does my caring make their situation worse? If the cover is such a non-issue, why is it then such a huge damning issue for you? If it's so shallow and superficial, why do you care? Doesn't that make you a little bit of a hypocrite?
I totally love how you basically say, "Who gives a sh*t about what the female fans want. Not me! And if I don't, then nobody should!" Thanks for being such a sweet and caring person. I feel really welcome and comfortable with people like you around.
I am. But I don't do so under the guise of some pseudo-ideological nonsense about equality or righteousness or making the world a better place.
Yeah, you're right, your reasoning is even more pointless. What are you doing here complaining about the ending, while some people in third world countries don't even get to play Mass Effect and experience said endings, you monster? Also, congratulations on contributing absolutely nothing to this discussion and good job on derailing this perfectly civil & reasonable argument.
They've already made that poster/concept art/thing with both a male and female character on it, so I'd say that's a promising start.
They most likely follow in the footsteps of DAI showing gameplay and trailers of the male and female
Yeah, judging by the promo poster, they will most likely market both. I'm only wondering if they'll go with a face model for either gender, or if they'll leave them to our imaginations by using only helmets.
Except.....I never used the word "Muslim" in my post. Way to assume though. Way to really show your prejudice. Way to REALLY jump to that conclusion. This just in: You don't have to be a Muslim woman in a third world country to be beaten and stoned to death. More at 11:00. And in all actuality, the fact that you ARE complaining about something so trivial does say more about you than it does about me. Because you are taking it for granted.
Women in third world countries don't give a damn if there's a female character on a video game cover or not. They're just trying to make a living. Trying to support their families. But here you are making a huge fuss over something that is quintessentially a non-issue.
"B-But you're complaining about the ME 3 ending!"
I am. But I don't do so under the guise of some pseudo-ideological nonsense about equality or righteousness or making the world a better place.
You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. People stopped caring about your little rant against ME3's ending, so you poked a different topic. Well, we don't care. We are much better at knowing what we should and should not care about than you. You've had your say. Now go pat yourself on the back, feel better about yourself, maybe have a popsicle, and I'll get back to not caring about your ill-informed opinion.
They most likely follow in the footsteps of DAI showing gameplay and trailers of the male and female
Yeah, I'd like to think so, judging from the recent development. Now we just need the protags to fist-bump on the cover! (I'm kidding, in case somebody wants to breathe down my neck again. Well, I do think it would be totally badass, but I'm kidding, still.)
Yeah, judging by the promo poster, they will most likely market both. I'm only wondering if they'll go with a face model for either gender, or if they'll leave them to our imaginations by using only helmets.
Good question. I mean, BW seem to like their iconic protagonists. Given that MEA, unlike DAI, is going to have only two protagonists, as far as we know, it's likely they're going to have iconic faces. I mean, who knows, but that would be my guess. Now I'm really curious.
You're arguing just for the sake of arguing. People stopped caring about your little rant against ME3's ending, so you poked a different topic. Well, we don't care. We are much better at knowing what we should and should not care about than you. You've had your say. Now go pat yourself on the back, feel better about yourself, maybe have a popsicle, and I'll get back to not caring about your ill-informed opinion.
I honestly don't get him. It's not like we want to take his stuff away or remove the male protagonist from the cover, trailers, or the game, or something. Majority of the guys here seem to understand that and don't seem to mind sharing - although I don't want to speak for everyone, of course, but that's my observation. I wouldn't even mind a reasonable discussion about it or agreeing to disagree. But I don't care for anybody's irrational hissy fits.
The whole thing about hair is weird and presumes an American style of military cuts anyway. Both men and women have to have their hair off the collar. For women this usually means a bun and for men it's just high and tight. But, check out the bad assery of females serving in the Israeli military. Lots of long, lovely braids there, and they're doing just fine. So I think the standard is still the same, but I the haircut is unlikely to have anything to do with being an N7.
lol, now what? Females from the 'third worlds' shouldn't be playing games like privileged folks from the first worlds and that we're not allowed to discuss female representation in media because there are a lot of worst things happening in this corner of the world.....FYI, the 'first/third worlds' term are very outdated and just as archaic as Rajm and even that was hardly common and hardly exclusive only to women. Obviously, its very easy to pander on something that sounds exotic just to make certain argument seem to have substance... unfortunately it only shows abject ignorance on the subject matter.
Either way, like it or not, Bioware aren't going to stop making their main characters gender-neutral and they've been making a lot of them for years. The rest of us here appreciate all their efforts but we merely want them to realize that we're all okay if they want to publicly acknowledge their female main characters as they deserve like their male counterparts.
Unfortunately, this appears too much for some....
Although I never botherd with doing a playthrough as Sheploo I could most definantely see the advantages of having a iconic poster-protagonist that would appear in all marketing related material and I can guarentee people here that Mass Effect's marketing campaign would be less succesfull had Shepard been an faceless, Gender-neutral protagonist from the get-go. The consistent re-apperance of Sheploo in trailers and pre-release material created a certain degree connection and cohesiveness that we would not have otherwise. When you think of Sheploo you think of Mass Effect.
I don't believe equality for the sake of equality, Bioware made a clear decision when they put Sheploo forward as the iconic face of Shepard.
I understand the idea behind it, from the marketing point of view, but it never really sat well with me. Yes, the character is iconic, but for me it has nothing to do with their face. I wonder how others feel, the people who played with a custom male and female faces? The customization and making your own Shepard is such an integral part for me that I just can't swallow the default one. I feel the same for male and for female default face model, btw.
To be honest, I like the idea of having the iconic faces because, as Fixers0 says, it makes the protagonist recognisable and he's right that when I see Sheploo I think Mass Effect. I also think Mass Effect when I see femShep. And when I see Garrus, Wrex, Kaidan, Liara, etc... Actually, now that I think of it, if there were just the crew on the cover with some pretty background with no Shepard in sight, I wouldn't at all mind it. But that's just me anyway.
Anyway, back to Sheploo because for me there's a big HOWEVER in there. I do not play with the pre-made characters. I never will. I do think it's kind of cool to have them for the reasons stated above, but that's where it also ends for me. I think Mass Effect and BW games in general would lose a lot of appeal if we didn't get a choice in what our character's going to look like.
My problem isn't really as much with the pre-made protagonist. I just like the idea of the marketing being a little more inclusive because, well, this is an RPG that allows it and, as I said before, I sure as hell totally missed it when the game was first released. That doesn't mean I want to slap the female protag all over it - although it wouldn't bother me either at the moment because we've had that happen with male protags already. Nevertheless, it's not what I want or what I'm advocating here. The fact it all got better with time is a great thing, imho, and I sincerely appreciate it from BW's side. I honestly think it may help introduce more people to the games. To me the marketing thing is not "equality for the sake of equality", because this is not really a story of an established character, despite the iconic protags. If it were Tomb Raider, I wouldn't insist on making a big deal out of a male character. If it were Far Cry, I wouldn't insist on making a big deal out of a female character. BW games offer a different kind of experience and the idea of the marketing reflecting that just seems like a good idea. I mean, trying to sell what you have to offer is good, right? Somebody correct me if you have any relevant data. Because maybe that's not how marketing works and I'm always open to discussion.
Lol, funnily enough, my ME3 thumbnail on Origin has nothing but "N7" on the cover. Big, shiny "N7". Works fine for me, too. But when I bought it, I'd already played through ME1 and ME2, so I knew what the game was going to be about.
Just the first paragraph; oh yes, you're still only bringing ME1 up because that's the game where FemShep is barely mentioned, and you ignore everything that came after for some silly reason. You're still beating your head against the wall, while living in the past, because FemShep has gotten lots of attention since ME2 and you apparently can't find those.What you said was, "if you did your research, you would see Female Shepard featured in many trailers, coverages, interviews and etc." She wasn't though, was she? She wasn't even mentioned, let alone featured. I mean, these are the days when I hung out on RPG websites and there was no mention of a female Shepard in anything I read from posters there or in links to Bioware's site. Zilch. Nada. I was hanging out on the old Obsidian forums playing NWN2 reading people's posts about Mass Effect and didn't see a mention of a female protagonist.
Don't blame gamers who want to play as female characters for not doing enough research about a sci-fi kinda RPG with heavy shooter elements and a widely (probably exclusively) featured male protagonist for not knowing there was an option to play as female. Not to mention that what I remember is that the game was marketed as a shooter with some dialogue and not necessarily as an RPG.
I mean, seriously. Point me to a single, accessible article about ME1 that mentions the option to play as a female protagonist. When I say "accessible" I don't mean "Joe's Blog" I mean an article from a publication or website that would have been widely read in 2008.
Huh? Prove what? That the female counterpart gets the attention she deserves? And that some women can't stop complaining about it despite the past recent years? Then I'm right.Hey, you're the one telling me they exist. I'm just asking you to prove your point. And let's be honest here. If Bioware had clearly shown that there was an option for both genders, then I would have had reason to do research. You're telling me I should have researched a game I wasn't all that interested in to find out that there was a female protagonist. Gamers shouldn't have to research that. It should be clear from the marketing and you have a bunch of female gamers telling you it was not clear from the marketing. Stop condescending to us.
No men/woman would survive entering the atmosphere of a planet either, so what's your point? When Mass Effect is barely accurate to anything, even military, you try to prove me something based on some design flaw or inconsistency you found in the lore? Nah.You're telling me to use common sense? I'm using what I've learnt about the universe from the game while you're just making up excuses for why something is a certain way without being able to back it up with any in-game example. Like, come on. And, yeah, we know next to nothing about the N7 program from the game. How convenient to explain it that way. However, I actually read a wiki on it a while ago, which collects info from the books and comics also, and there was nothing about N7 attire or hairstyles, as far as I remember. Not a thing.
Also, nobody said anything about women shaving heads, while that's of course an option. However, I can guarantee that no real female combatant would wear loose hair like Ashley does in ME3 in battle. First of all, that's how it works in real military, which you so wanted to use as an explanation before. Second of all, as a woman with long hair, I can tell you that would be really darn inconvenient while just exercising, let alone in combat or while wearing a helmet. That's why buns were invented. So, wouldn't that be a little of a double standard if the rules you mention applied to guys only?
I get ya.There are women getting beaten and stoned to death in a third world country and people are complaining about there not being fair representation of females for video game covers.
Third wave feminism pisses. me. off.
No men/woman would survive entering the atmosphere of planet either, so what's your point? When Mass Effect is barely accurate to anything, even military, you try to prove me something based on some design flaw or inconsistency you found in the lore? Nah.
Bald Military Shepard is totally justifiable, it's either his own preference, or a protocol thing that has never been denied or confirmed to exist in the lore, that's why you can't say it's "wrong" or "right.
It's obvious women tie their hair in the military, yet, you're trying to nitpick Ash's hair, friendly reminder that game models aren't that easy to make, even more with the restrained time and budget that Bioware had for ME3, it would have been much better if her hairstyle changed to the ME1-2 during missions, didn't happen, and it's unrealistic, but then again, FemShep facing The Shadow Broker in a fistfight was totally unrealistic either, but you apparently mind that, I believe - female power?
How is atmospheric entry related to hairstyles??? And last time I checked, it was you trying to prove me wrong with "Because Male Shepard is part of the military, and there's standards to follow, like shaving your head for males." You started with this argument and when I use the game's universe to show you that you're wrong, you give me atmospheric entry... Well, yeah, I indeed don't know what to tell you to that, that's... yeah. Don't know how that's relevant at all. And Shepard's body surviving atmospheric entry, THAT'S a "design flaw". Not the fact that MEU uses different military conventions from real life that are actually very consistent the whole franchise.
I've never said that being bald is not justifiable. I'm saying it's totally nothing new on the male protag market. That has been my point the entire time.
What does the difficulty of making a game model have to do with anything? If that were the case, they would stick Ashley into a regular uniform instead of making a special outfit just for her. But that wasn't the case and you're just making stuff up. Anyway, I was not saying they should do both. I was just saying that by your "there's standards to follow," Ashley would have a bun and not loose hair. That is all. And that's why your argument doesn't work. The mod I listed was completely unrelated to what you said. I was talking to Monica.
Yet again, the Shadow Broker doesn't have anything to do with anything in this argument. However, while we're at it, I don't believe most men and women could fist-fight that thing. So if femShep couldn't, manShep couldn't, as well. End of the story. Or do you happen to think you could take the Yahg on just because of your oh so strong gender?
And if you're done pulling absolutely unrelated crap that has nothing to do with our current discussion in futile hope to throw me out of balace out of your butt, I'm done here, as well. I don't have the energy to deal with your beyond broken logic. At this point you're just saying random stuff to save face and that's not worth my time.
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