21 réponses à ce sujet

[Yggdrasil]

I'm getting to the end of my second playthrough, trying to get a handle on everything going on, especially in light of the post-credit reveal.

 

Solas totally flips out over the idea of the Grey Wardens invading the Deep Roads and slaying the last two Archdemons.  Even knowing about his true identity, I couldn't understand why he cared so much and seemed to be so personally invested in his opposition.

 

Some have floated around the idea that the Old Gods are the elven gods.  But what if the Old Gods are the Forgotten Ones*?  I just noticed that the lore says Fen'Harel was accepted by both the elven gods and the Forgotten Ones.  He obviously has regard for the elven gods, so maybe he also feels a kinship with the Forgotten Ones and doesn't want to see them slaughtered.

 

Maybe the Forgotten Ones have always been ancient (or even the original) dragons.  I'm pretty sure that the elven "gods" were just extremely powerful elves who achieved a kind of divine status.  Immortality wouldn't be a defining characteristic if all the elves were supposedly immortal before losing this trait by association with humans.  (Heck, maybe Solas' reason for locking away the elven gods was to keep them from succumbing to this "quickening.")  Or maybe the elves (under the protection of the elven gods) and the dragons (more numerous back in the day and under the protection, if not created by, the Forgotten Ones) simply couldn't co-exist, and the resulting conflict threatened to destroy everything, prompting Fen'Harel's actions.  Solas went to sleep thinking things would have calmed down by the time he woke up and he could release everyone.  He gets lost in wandering the paths of the Fade, wakes up much later than he intended and is then shocked to see the state of affairs in the world.

 

 

*I'm not claiming credit for coming up for this.  I'm pretty sure I've read it in this forum, but I have some thoughts that may support it.

[Yggdrasil]

Sorry, my original posting was already too long, so I thought I would add a couple of secondary thoughts in a second post:

1. Andruil supposedly started going bonkers the more Forgotten Ones she hunted.  A Reaver's beserker abilities are derived from dragon blood.  Maybe she was feasting on the dragon blood of Forgotten Ones so much that it started making her crazy.
2. Yavana speaks of a time where dragons were everywhere and there was no Veil.  The Veil supposedly comes down to a matter of perspective, not an actual, physical barrier.  Maybe the ancient elves were able exist both in the real world and the Fade simultaneously, which is why they were immortal and could all weave magic "like breathing."  Maybe the quickening was the empirical, "real world" perspective of humans that "infected" the way the elves saw reality and shut them off from that unfettered connection to the Fade.

[myahele]

Yavana (Flemeth's other daughter) did say that the "blood of the dragons is the blood of this world" we also know that Mythal (and now her other 2 daughters) are pro-dragon conservationist.

 

If dragons are supposedly important for the world, then I'm sure dragon gods/ the Old Gods are VERY important. Why is that? Not sure, but other works of fiction dragons have always been tied to something grander.

 

In the possible future when the remaining Old Gods were killed by Corypheus' mind-controlled Wardens, the world was "ok" despite the ever expanding breach/ demon invasion.

 

The interesting thing about the Forgotten Ones (Atleast one of them) is that they seem to just opposed the idea of the pantheon's "godhood status" among the elves: "The script is an ancient elven dialect. Upon further observation, it twists, the words becoming visible:

There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed.

I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. LetAndruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery." 

 

With that said, I personally believe that the Sun deity that was defeated by Elgar'nan was symbolic of Dragons, since both are stated to be needed for the world's survival

 

Lastly, i think the elves lost their immortality due to abusing blood magic. Blood magic makes it difficult to enter the fade ... elves were naturally connected to fade, so by gradually losing that connection they gradually lost their magic/immortality since it was reliant on the Fade

[Ranadiel Marius]

A minor codex entry in JoH implies that the Forgotten Ones were contemporaries of the Elvhan Gods who disagreed with them regarding...something. They were not dragons (unless they could polymorph into Elvhan forms). Further the only Forgotten One we might know the domain of appears to be a god of winter/ice which does not correspond with the domains of any of the Old Gods.

My personal theory is the Old Gods are dragon "pets" of the Elvhan Gods that the Elvhan gods imbued with a whisp of their "divine" souls.

[Yggdrasil]

I embarrassed to say that I haven't actually gone through JoH, so I hadn't even seen the codex entry @myahele references.

 

What I'm really trying to figure is why Solas throws such a hissyfit about the Old Gods/Archdemons.  @Ranadiel's suggestion is certainly a plausible one.  Solas tells Cassandra that the Grey Wardens are messing with powers they don't understand, and--as @myahele points out--Yavana (a devotee of Flemeth/Mythal) says that the world can't survive without dragons.

 

I do like my theory that humans made the ancient elves lose their "perspective" about the Fade, although it's really just baseless supposition.

[Gervaise]

Small query, Myahele why do you say that blood magic makes it difficult to enter the Fade when it was the blood magic sacrifice of hundreds of slaves that enabled Cory and the ancient Magisters to enter the Fade?    

 

As for the Forgotten Ones and dragons.   It would seem that quite a few ancient gods are associated with dragons.   The Avaar believe that all spirits are their gods and that the more powerful ones can be bound to the form of a mortal creature.    This keeps it in the material world where it can assist its follower more directly.    Killing the god allows the spirit to return to the Fade and reform.    I think possibly what bothers Solas is that when the Wardens kill an archdemon they don't release the spirit but destroy it utterly.   Back in Origins one version of the Warden killing the archdemon simply resulted in the death of the Warden, but another specifically said it destroyed both their souls.   So no chance of rebirth.      When Solas' friend was killed, he said that it would ultimately reform in the Fade, even though it wouldn't be exactly like the friend he lost, but that there would be some sort of rebirth.     So his concern could well be because of the link between gods and spirits regardless of which race actually worships or acknowledges them.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Solas says that using blood magic makes it hard for a mage to enter the fade in their dreams. I think what the Magisters were doing was different. 

[Andromelek]

Slaughterers weaken the Veil, that must be why Cory and pals needed a lot of victims, I guess they used elves because they were slaves and no one would miss them.

I don't think the Forgotten Ones were dragons (Flemeth gave some hint that dragons could shapeshift into humans, but this seemingly is not the case) Forgotten Ones are said to be beings of Blight, their home is called the Void and the elven word for the source of the Blight, Banalhan, basically means that. The Old Gods in the other hand seems to be victims rather than masters of the Blight.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think he also used the lives of slaves to power the magical ritual to tear open the Veil. 

[myahele]

Small query, Myahele why do you say that blood magic makes it difficult to enter the Fade when it was the blood magic sacrifice of hundreds of slaves that enabled Cory and the ancient Magisters to enter the Fade?    

 

I was mostly think about prolonged/excessive bloodmagic use. The veil in the area might be thinned, but the individual's connection to the fade is lessened with each use. Kinda like building tolerence. You'll need more and more blood just to get the same result, atleast in the case of "casual" bloodmagic use. 

 

Now on the subject of Old Gods it is interesting that they were pretty communicative and helpful. In fact they never even wanted/bribed them in freeing them until Cory and crew. 

 

I remember reading that all of a sudden the Old Gods stopped speaking and no matter what Corypheus did nothing worked ... then voice told to release them. There's a similar situation in JoH where Hakkon stopped speaking to the Avvar because he got bound to a dragon (would have been a bear, too) 

 

Lastly, the "Claws of Dumat" that Corypheus used for the ritual were everywhere in the Primeval Thaig. I'm not sure if he took it or he was "inspired" to make it:

Claws of Dumat

 

Primeval Thaig

[Yggdrasil]

Part of JoH that I did get to mentions priests of one of the Old Gods hoping to use a cave in the area in the hopes of hearing again from the Old God who'd gone silent.

 

I dunno...Going back to what was really my original issue, I just honestly can't figure Solas' perspective out.  I was literally just playing the part in the Temple of Mythal where he talks about how bloodthirsty Falon'Din was.  He just seems to hate everyone but spirits.  He's talking trash about his fellow deities.  He hates the Grey Wardens but offers no alternative to keep the darkspawn that swarm during a Blight from killing every last man, woman and child.  He's unbelievably disdainful towards the Dalish just because they didn't hang on his every word as absolute truth.  How're they supposed to know who he is?  Why doesn't he respect that they at least tried to hold onto what elven culture and history that could be remembered while he spent thousands of years cavorting around the Fade?

 

He comes off as mild and intelligent and soft-spoken, but really he's just a hater criticizing everything without offering anything better.  The more I understand him, the more I grow to dislike him.  He was certainly aptly named.  He has all of the unbridled arrogance one would expect from a vainglorious god.

[Basement Cat]

He comes off as mild and intelligent and soft-spoken, but really he's just a hater criticizing everything without offering anything better.  The more I understand him, the more I grow to dislike him.  He was certainly aptly named.  He has all of the unbridled arrogance one would expect from a vainglorious god.

There's also the fact that he tends to make things worse when he does try to act. There's that matter of imprisoning the elven gods only for their empire to fall, and then the whole fiasco with the orb.

 

For someone who criticizes others so much for 'dealing with forces they don't understand', he himself does it a lot. Another interesting tidbit is his criticism of the Qun as mindless drones who never decide anything for themselves, but at the same time he harps on Varric and Sera for not being what they are 'meant to be'. So they should conform to the expectations of their respective society instead of choosing their own path in life. A little inconsistent, aren't you, Solas?

[Ranadiel Marius]

Part of JoH that I did get to mentions priests of one of the Old Gods hoping to use a cave in the area in the hopes of hearing again from the Old God who'd gone silent.

I dunno...Going back to what was really my original issue, I just honestly can't figure Solas' perspective out. I was literally just playing the part in the Temple of Mythal where he talks about how bloodthirsty Falon'Din was. He just seems to hate everyone but spirits. He's talking trash about his fellow deities. He hates the Grey Wardens but offers no alternative to keep the darkspawn that swarm during a Blight from killing every last man, woman and child. He's unbelievably disdainful towards the Dalish just because they didn't hang on his every word as absolute truth. How're they supposed to know who he is? Why doesn't he respect that they at least tried to hold onto what elven culture and history that could be remembered while he spent thousands of years cavorting around the Fade?.

The codex entry I was alluding to is found behind the shard door in JoH. And frankly, if anyone reacted to what you found there, it would be the archeological find of the century...actually the Inquisitor has a lot of those. Of course everyone instead ignores your incredible findings.

Solas is a man full of regrets. He stepped in to try and stop a bad situation from getting worse and ended up sealing his friends away. And that action caused everything to go to ****. Now all he wants to do is undo what he has done. He doesn't care for the people of the current world because to him they aren't "real" unlike the past he is trying to bring back. He is likely upset over the archdemon thing because the Old Gods are somehow connected to the world he wants to bring ba ck.

[Statare]

Personally, I get super upset when I hear about poachers killing dolphins, bears, wolves, etc. but that does not make me any of those things  I think it is possible Solas is upset about the killing of Old Gods because they are his relatives, making them either Forgotten Ones or part of the Pantheon, but it is equally likely Solas is upset because they are part of the past that Solas values over the present. One of your first conversations with Solas he can say something along the lines of, "I would have suggested a griffon, sadly they are all extinct," when suggesting a mount for the Inquisitor. Of all the creatures, Solas chooses a griffon, something that was more common in the past and was made extinct by the actions of the Wardens. 

 

The game is definitely trying really hard to make the Old Gods and Elven Pantheon connection (the constellations), and Mythal taking the form of a Dragon. While I think this might be foreshadowing, it seems pretty heavy handed (and all the reveals thus far have been subtly established), so I am inclined to believe there is an important piece missing, as you'd think an OGS Kieran would have given some hint about Solas, or you'd think Cole would imply some of Solas' friends trapped being dead or absent. Because of all the OGs who have risen to cause a Blight, only one soul is possibly still alive, and maybe a second if you buy into the whole Andraste is Dumat thing. This leaves only two of Solas' friends he trapped being around, you'd think Cole would draw attention to that instead of talking as if they are all still there. But there could be other pieces missing.

 

There is another issue that no one really goes into. We don't know when the Old Gods were sealed away. Some assume it must have been pre-fall of the Elves or coincided with the sealing of the Pantheon, which we don't even know exactly when that occurred in relation to the rise of the Imperium. The Elves had an Empire that definitely existed in some capacity for thousands of years and we only know that the Pantheon disappeared some time before Arlathan was buried under a Blood Magic ritual by Tevinter. We have no idea when the Old Gods were sealed away, but if you believe Tevinter legend, the Old Gods were active in the early centuries of the Imperium. Or, if you believe that the betrayal Mythal talks about had something to do with the Old Gods, considering her apparent sympathy with wanting to keep their souls alive (the dark ritual) and her connection to dragons, then this happened before the sealing away of the Pantheon, as Mythal was dead and could not have been sealed away by Solas prior to his trapping the other gods.

 

Another thing to consider: whose side Mythal is really on. She seems okay with Solas at the end, but she's got a whole vendetta going, and she appeared to be trying to do something before Solas arrived. If she trusted Solas, or aligned with his purpose, you'd think they would have worked closely together when he awoke. Mythal as Flemeth has also had numerous dealings with the Dalish for centuries. The Dalish also have a surprisingly accurate description of the spheres their Pantheon ruled over, considering how little else they know, except for one God, Fen'Harel, who went from being a god of rebellion (Temple of Mythal) to be described as a god of betrayal and deceit. This could be their bitterness at Fen'harel for eliminating their gods, who were also potentially their protection and source of stability, but perhaps Mythal, the only member of the Pantheon thus known to have existed in Thedas and had contact with the elves after the fall of their Empire, who seems obsessed with a betrayal, had a hand in shaping how the Dread Wolf would be remembered? Crazy theory I know, but I'm suspicious why everyone assumes they must be on the same side.

 

Another thing about Solas to remember: he gave the Orb to a tainted entity. If you believe the whole, "Fen'Harel sealed the Pantheon away to stop the spread of the Blight" business, why did he trust an entity who was marked by the Blight? Perhaps Solas' relationship with the Blight is the key to understanding his disdain for the Wardens, and why he seems to offer very little insight into the Blight we did not already know despite dropping lore bombs all over the place.

[Hellion Rex]

Solas says that using blood magic makes it hard for a mage to enter the fade in their dreams. I think what the Magisters were doing was different.

When does he say that? That's the first I've ever heard that.
I would have thought BM would make it easier.

[esper]

He says that if you express interest in it (you might have to be a mage though).

[Hellion Rex]

He says that if you express interest in it (you might have to be a mage though).

That's odd. Cause we have been told that blood magic allows for the manipulation of people's dreams, which would surely need a mage to reach into the Fade with their mind.

And I did play a mage, but I must have just missed that bit of conversation entirely.

[MerricksMom]

That's odd. Cause we have been told that blood magic allows for the manipulation of people's dreams, which would surely need a mage to reach into the Fade with their mind.

And I did play a mage, but I must have just missed that bit of conversation entirely.

If I remember correctly, its one of the first conversations you have with him in Haven.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You have to have to ask him about blood magic. Although I think actually only elves get it right away. Other races need to wait to ask him in Skyhold later. It might be approval based?

[esper]

Blood magic allows of manipulation of blood (duh) and people's mind. We have never heard of dreams.

 

It can thin the Veil, through pain or death, but that is not the same as controlling or enter the fade dreaming (which is what Solas do.)

[Hellion Rex]

Blood magic allows of manipulation of blood (duh) and people's mind. We have never heard of dreams.

It can thin the Veil, through pain or death, but that is not the same as controlling or enter the fade dreaming (which is what Solas do.)

Wiki claims that blood magic can be used to "find the sleeping minds of others", which does hint to dream manipulation. But, in deference to this Solas conversation, perhaps it does not require one to visit the Fade itself. And note, that it says that BM makes it harder to enter the Fade mentally, but not impossible. I'd imagine that with enough blood and sacrifice, it could still be done.

[Hellion Rex]

Also, here is the source for dream manipulation via BM: http://dragonage.wik...orbidden_School