91 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

I really want The HoF to appear again but at this point i've given up hope. As far as i'm concerd He's dead.

With this attitude, you are killing your own ex-protagonist. As I see it, my Wardens do as I want them to do, and their situation is as I envision it, within the constraints of what Bioware said. I am a roleplayer, I don't want to be told what's happening, I want to tell it. So, the only way I want to see my Wardens again is as the one who plays them. If that's not going to happen, l would prefer them to be left alone, so that I can at least tell their story to myself, and possibly, should I bother to write it down, to others who might be interested.  

[Aren]

Hard to make a DLC for a character who can be dead

Not when Death is treated as a joke and continuously retconned.

[Aren]

Because it's the Inquisitor's story, not the Warden's. Given that your Warden sends your Inquisitor a lovely letter explaining what he/she is currently doing (if he/she is alive), it doesn't make sense for the HoF to pop up right now. And frankly, that whole quest to save Wardens from the Calling seems kind of important in and of itself.

 

 

Important?

i couldn't explain the situation with better words than the one of In Exile

 

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The Calling bit is just a plot coupon Bioware introduced to address what would otherwise have been the borderline aggressive complaint about what the HOF would be doing during DA:I. This is the (parody version) of the conversation Bioware wanted to avoid:

 

Warden Fan: Where is the HOF during DA:I? My HOF is a superlative badass titant warrior/rogue/mage murder god of killing. She/he'd kill Corypheus in a heartbeat, wear his spine like a belt, use his teeth to make cornmeal, and be back home before supper to rule Ferelden/hang with Zevran/party with Leliana/raise Kieran/build sand castles with Alistair. 

 

Bioware: Err... Calling!

 

Warden Fan: What?

 

Bioware: Curing the Calling. Yes. That's it. The Warden is off to cure the Calling!

 

Bioware: Far away. Yes. Really far. Over there. Which isn't here. It's so over there that the Warden can't get right hereuntil way after the plot is over. Yup. Whew. 

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and my warden do not like to write lovely letters.... the letters were wrote by a bioware writer and i will just pretend that it's never happen.

[KaiserShep]

 

Not when Death is treated as a joke and continuously retconned.

In wonderland, death does not exist.

 

 

I wouldn't say continuously. As far as I can tell, no deaths were retconned in Inquisition itself, and it seems that any deaths that occurred in DA2 stay that way.

[Aren]

I wouldn't say continuously. As far as I can tell, no deaths were retconned in Inquisition itself, and it seems that any deaths that occurred in DA2 stay that way.

Leliana would say otherwise......

Anyway i don't want the HoF back but i also have no desire to see again the same people that continue to jump over the world like crickets just to met my new protagonist over and over again.

[YourFunnyUncle]

 

Leliana would say otherwise......

 

No point in getting into the argument over whether Leliana's death is a retcon again, but she appeared in DA2, so whatever you may feel, as KaiserShep said it wasn't something that happened in Inquisition itself.

[KaiserShep]

Leliana would say otherwise......

 

 

I can't fault any subsequent titles for following through when the damage was already done a game prior. All that really matters at this point is that she's [hopefully] the last one. Anders is still dead if you killed him, as are the other killable companions if you did the same, I believe.

[Aren]

No point in getting into the argument over whether Leliana's death is a retcon again, but she appeared in DA2, so whatever you may feel, as KaiserShep said it wasn't something that happened in Inquisition itself.

Anyway beyond Leliana(never killed her personally so no retcon for me) which is in fact the only example,when i said death is a joke, it was  because most of the characters for one way or the other are protected by writer's shield and we have many examples.

 

1)The Architect is he dead? no we don't know because magister

 

2)Corypheus is he really dead in DAII? No because magister.

Is he dead in DAI? I wouldn't be surprised to see him again because he was banished into the fade 

(no.... he is dead the Inquisitor have opened a breach inside him.........still i'm sceptical)

 

3)Morrigan is she dead in WH? No, because against my will my warden has not crossed the Eluvian that was still functional to finish her,due to writers shield,i would have prefered if they will not even give to us this possibility  to maintain logical consistency.

 

4)Flemeth is she dead? We don't know because again writer's shield

 

 

There are so many situations that are not clearly defined because the writers do not know if they wish to reuse this characters or not in subsequent stories,like the Architect that was according to 

Weekes a possibility in here lies the abyss

 

the whole thing is starting to become tiresome,death as to be final and not always avoided because.... reasons.....

[YourFunnyUncle]

If i remember Leliana can be present only as a part of the DLC exiled prince ,it was not a problem for me personally never killed her, But maybe this would be kind of a problem for others players.

Nope. She's in the final scene as Cassandra leaves after interrogating Varric..

[Ieldra]

the whole thing is starting to become tiresome,death as to be final and not always avoided because.... reasons.....

Indeed so. If so many important character are in a limbo at the end of the latest game, and you can't even answer the question "are they still alive" with a modicum of certainty, the story eventually acquires an unreal quality.

I understand writers don't like to be bound by what they've written in past chapters of their story, but mere future inconvenience is no excuse for not making anything decisive, if that indecisiveness adverse affects they player's experience. A single instance here and there, that's ok and can even be refreshing, but even then, it tends to work well if it serves the story rather than the writer's convenience.

[AtreiyaN7]

 

Important?

i couldn't explain the situation with better words than the one of In Exile

 

---------------------------------

 

The Calling bit is just a plot coupon Bioware introduced to address what would otherwise have been the borderline aggressive complaint about what the HOF would be doing during DA:I. This is the (parody version) of the conversation Bioware wanted to avoid:

 

Warden Fan: Where is the HOF during DA:I? My HOF is a superlative badass titant warrior/rogue/mage murder god of killing. She/he'd kill Corypheus in a heartbeat, wear his spine like a belt, use his teeth to make cornmeal, and be back home before supper to rule Ferelden/hang with Zevran/party with Leliana/raise Kieran/build sand castles with Alistair. 

 

Bioware: Err... Calling!

 

Warden Fan: What?

 

Bioware: Curing the Calling. Yes. That's it. The Warden is off to cure the Calling!

 

Bioware: Far away. Yes. Really far. Over there. Which isn't here. It's so over there that the Warden can't get right hereuntil way after the plot is over. Yup. Whew. 

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and my warden do not like to write lovely letters.... the letters were wrote by a bioware writer and i will just pretend that it's never happen.

 

 

And that's your viewpoint. Mine is that the Calling is a serious issue, even if it is a plot coupon. Because I'm not obsessively attached to my Warden and am content to let her go (not that I wouldn't be happy to see her again), I'm okay with getting a nod and an update about what she's doing, particularly if my HoF is doing something that I can accept as being a worthy goal to work towards.

 

What else should they have done? Try to force a character in where he/she doesn't belong just because some people are overly attached to their Wardens to the point that they keep trying to get a whole game/DLC built around a character who doesn't have any real, legitimate reason to show up again? Is the HoF - who is just a Warden - supposed to show up as the hero now and forever? This is the Dragon Age, not the Hero of Ferelden Age.

 

Look, unless the timetable for the next Blight gets moved up thanks to Solas doing something extraordinarily wacky, I don't really see a role for the HoF at all now - with the exception of that Weisshaupt situation as I said earlier. They set things up in DA:O in a way, unfortunately or fortunately (depending on how one feels about it), where the HoF can be alive or dead; and if they're alive, you have other variables like her being queen or a mistress, etc. that would have to be dealt with.

 

As a result, the writers have a complex situation where they're never going to be able to satisfy everyone (short of them caving and creating a game featuring the Warden just because *rolleyes*). The fact that one person is okay with the letter and another person is not okay with the damned letter just goes to show that no matter what they do, they'll never make everyone happy - never, ever, ever - with regards to the Warden.

 

As for what the HoF is currently doing (if alive), sometimes things that seem minor at first (like, say, Flemeth) actually turn out to have a major impact down the line - whether or not this search for a cure to the Calling turns out to be one of those things, who knows; I wouldn't entirely discount it at this point. Oh yes, regarding your example using Corypheus in that other post, I disagree that he was like other characters who could be alive/not alive with death not being final, yadda yadda.

 

 

2)Corypheus is he really dead in DAII? No because magister.

Is he dead in DAI? I wouldn't be surprised to see him again because he was banished into the fade 

(no.... he is dead the Inquisitor have opened a breach inside him.........still i'm sceptical)

 

 

If you go back and look at the final scene in Legacy, it sort of screamed "Hey, unless you're totally oblivious, this guy probably jumped bodies somehow!" At the time that I actually played it, I was pretty sure that something fishy was going on after the final scene and thought it left an opening for Cory to come back in some capacity. That being said, I certainly hadn't anticipated him being the major villain in DA:I. As for Cory's fate this time around, I think he's pretty darned dead because the Inquisitor kills the dragon that was functioning as his horcrux.

 

And as others have pointed out, the deal lately seems to be that characters who can die stay dead if you killed them/were responsible for their deaths. I sure haven't seen Bethany Hawke miraculously pop up anywhere after she ate it in DA2. There are always going to be characters in any game or book that have plot armor or that won't die just because the author says so (or who magically survive what seems like certain death). I'm mostly accepting of the fact that it does happen and will probably happen once in a while in a game, mainly because a game is more complicated than a book where you don't really have to deal with people making choices x, y, z (unless you're doing one of those choose-your-own-adventure books).

[Magdalena11]

I love the points that Aren and AtreiyaN7 make, and I agree with both of you.  That dialogue is so cool.  Something along those lines probably did happen, with different words.  I also think the Calling is a serious issue, because it reflects a logical end.  If you consume enough of a toxic thing for long enough, as a way to make you stronger, it eventually consumes you unless you find a way to release yourself from it.

[Ieldra]

I love the points that Aren and AtreiyaN7 make, and I agree with both of you.  That dialogue is so cool.  Something along those lines probably did happen, with different words.  I also think the Calling is a serious issue, because it reflects a logical end.  If you consume enough of a toxic thing for long enough, as a way to make you stronger, it eventually consumes you unless you find a way to release yourself from it.

It may not be exactly relevant to this debate, but that's not what happens. The Wardens don't consume more and more darkspawn blood. They do it once and its effects become stronger over the years. It's more like taking in a carcinogenic substance once rather than a toxic substance repeatedly.

Anyway, the effect becomes debilitating, so I think it's perfectly natural to look for a way out. However, as a reason for the Warden being absent it's not quite convincing, since I'd expect a Warden to around the only person who already managed to defeat the Blight in her body - Fiona. I have no objection to the Warden being absent, as I've said repeatedly, but the way it was justified is not optimal.

[Carmen_Willow]

Because not that many people cares about that warden

My Orlesian Warden was transferred to Weisshaupt because it was so politically inconvenient to have an Orlesian Warden-Commander acting as an Arl in Ferelden. He sent money to his long time mistress to join him at Weisshaupt, and as far as I know, he is living as happily-ever-after as a Warden can.

[Andromelek]

I'm happy with the way they've managed to keep the Warden, it remains dead if died or it is doing Wardens business if still alive. What I don't like it's the way they use all the other characters. It's almost like hear them:

"I like these characters, so I'm going to bring them back, no matter how forced their appearance seems to be and no matter how stupid sounds the way they revived...In the other hand, I don't like those characters, so I'm gonna kill them off screen or in a book even if they were spared.... Oh look! Cool characters from books... let's make sure they will die in the same issue they were born."

I would like the book's characters could have the same chances to revive than the ones from games, or at least a way to permanently take down those who I've already killed.

[Ieldra]

I would like the book's characters could have the same chances to revive than the ones from games, or at least a way to permanently take down those who I've already killed.

Is there such an imbalance? I haven't counted, but just to name examples: Cole is from a book and now he's a companion who survives to the end of DAI. Meanwhile, Wynne is a character from a game and she's killed off-screen.

 

I only see two problematic areas:

 

(1) There is a point where keeping characters alive against all probability adversely affects the story and makes it veer off into the parodistic. So some characters of those we see in situations that should, in all plausibility, have killed them, need to die for real rather than to mysteriously survive. The improbable survival needs to be an exception rather than the rule.

 

(2) Some mysterious survivals contribute more to that "veering off into the parodistic" than others. Leliana is the prime example here. I like her and I like that she survived, but in all honesty she shouldn't have if the Warden killed her in DAO, from any reasonable storytelling POV. Her death was too on-screen to retcon convincingly. It's not a critical mistake on its own, but it means that all future mysterious survivals will invite much greater scrutiny and are more likely to adversely affect how the world feels to players.

[RenAdaar]

Okay, seriously there's like 3 legendary people in Thedas so far. Don't you think that's a bit ridiculous?

Lol you know whats ridiculous? that same person saving the galaxy 3 times in a row.

And every one was fine with that so 3 heroes in thedas is not ridiculous at all.