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[Linkenski]

And of course it's about Witcher 3.

 

Trust me, it's a good one, and everyone, whether open or close-minded, every Bioware dev and every CDPR fan would benefit for reading it. (that doesn't really work does it?)

 

http://kotaku.com/th...er-3-1711003491

 

I see this topic also as sort of a feedback one, but I think it was more fitting to be put in here since it contains spoilers for both games (and if it doesn't it will because discussion of the subject requires it IMO)

 

The interesting snippet that made me think of Bioware and DA:I:

 

. . .
"Last fall’s Dragon Age: Inquisition provides an interesting counterpoint to The Witcher 3. BioWare’s game still challenges its audience, but in a different, almost directly opposing way.Inquisition tests preconceived notions by depicting a world in which currently contentious subjects—for instance, trans characters and gay characters—are accepted, not squabbled over. That’s awesome, and I’m glad there are games that let people of all types be who they want to be without ugly prejudices spitting all over their parade.

 The Witcher 3’s approach is more direct. CD Projekt Red’s game stares down problems—it attempts to depict things as they are rather than sugarcoating them. To interrogate, dissect, and understand. That approach can create a space for reflection, discussion, and growth. Both games are valid. Could a game more directly focused on those issues untangle them better thanThe Witcher? Probably. Games have only scratched the surface of this sort of subject matter, and I hope they continue to explore it. Who knows? Maybe another Witcher game will do it even better."

- Kotaku, Nathan Grayson.

 

Please have proper use of tags for Witcher 3 spoilers in this topic. DA:I spoilers go unmarked, hence the Scuttlebutt (spoilers) subforum name, naturally.

[zambingo]

Star Trek is where no one cared and instead everyone cared about being better. Star Wars has lightsabers and says bad people should suffer from horrible disfiguring injuries. Yada yada blah bleh Witcher that, Dragonteetness. The only approach that is likely stupid, that's just so stupid, is none. So if you're playing a game that has no levels then dumb. Yay for living today.

[chrstnmonks]

I read the article and while  i can appreciate his take I don't agree. That said he did misrepresent The Bloody baron quest somewhat.

[zambingo]

Wot.

Ridiculousness because yet another Witcher did it better, everything should be Witcher article. To quote Jerry Maquire, "I got Cush-Lash."

[AlanC9]

zambingo, you might be overdoing it just a little.

[Aren]

I genuinely believe that the DA Writers should rename the continent,from Thedas to Wonderland

With each passing game they alienate the players from  their own lore.

[Panda]

I appreciate Bioware's take more. Playing Witcher to me is mostly frustrating on how it deals with women. I'm much happea with story where women are as good as men and can be heroes too than having to deals with IRL sexism on a game too. Though from ME from Bioware has it too and I'd prefered none.

[Joseph Warrick]

I think the former makes the latter obsolete. There are two ways to deliver the point that women can be mages for example.

In "Equal Rites", Terry Pratchett challenges the notion that a girl with magic is to become a witch instead of a wizard. This is easily extrapolable to the real world. People oppose the idea, etc.

Another way is to consider it just a natural fact and portray it accordingly. Harry Potter did this. Nobody is surprised to see Hermione on the train. The point is delivered by creating a world in which this point is a fact and showing it to the audience. The audience then realizes it's not a fact in their own world and think about why.

[Aren]

I appreciate Bioware's take more. Playing Witcher to me is mostly frustrating on how it deals with women. I'm much happea with story where women are as good as men and can be heroes too than having to deals with IRL sexism on a game too. Though from ME from Bioware has it too and I'd prefered none.

Oh, you know what else CDPR > Bioware at? Writing strong women. When BW tries for a "strong woman", they write a (female mabari). Like Vivienne or Sera. Pretty common mistake really. TW3 has plenty of women that are strong and independent while not being self-centered, self-righteous scumbags. Cerys is probably the best example. Cerys is incredible. Ciri is also great. She's almost as good in battle as Geralt and yet is a good, sociable person. Of course, there's always Triss. All the mages of Novigrad looked to her as a leader for a reason.

But TW doesn't jump up and down screaming "LOOK AT ME, STRONG WOMEN, EQUALITY AND FEMINISM!" so it's rarely acknowledged that they do equality better than the SJW types. 

 

 

PS from user Rifneno

http://forum.bioware...than-tw3/page-5

[Joseph Warrick]

Oh, you know what else CDPR > Bioware at? Writing strong women. When BW tries for a "strong woman", they write a (female mabari). Like Vivienne or Sera. Pretty common mistake really. TW3 has plenty of women that are strong and independent while not being self-centered, self-righteous scumbags. Cerys is probably the best example. Cerys is incredible. Ciri is also great. She's almost as good in battle as Geralt and yet is a good, sociable person. Of course, there's always Triss. All the mages of Novigrad looked to her as a leader for a reason.

But TW doesn't jump up and down screaming "LOOK AT ME, STRONG WOMEN, EQUALITY AND FEMINISM!" so it's rarely acknowledged that they do equality better than the SJW types.


PS from user Rifneno
http://forum.bioware...than-tw3/page-5

Flemeth is strong and not like Vivienne or Sera. Liara is strong. Leliana and Wynne are strong.

TW3 does give you the feminism in your face line, though in the most cynical and disingenuous way possible: it has Ves, a soldier, wearing some sort of super cleavage atrocity. When questioned about her revealing outfit, she says you're not my dad, I dress how I want! wow. much independent. so agency.

[Al Foley]

Flemeth is strong and not like Vivienne or Sera. Liara is strong. Leliana and Wynne are strong.

TW3 does give you the feminism in your face line, though in the most cynical and disingenuous way possible: it has Ves, a soldier, wearing some sort of super cleavage atrocity. When questioned about her revealing outfit, she says you're not my dad, I dress how I want! wow. much independent. so agency.

Cassandra, Josephine (well sort of), Morrigan, etc etc...especially Cassandra.  Strong character who happens to be a woman and is very natural about it.  Lets also not forget Aveline.  

[Panda]

Oh, you know what else CDPR > Bioware at? Writing strong women. When BW tries for a "strong woman", they write a (female mabari). Like Vivienne or Sera. Pretty common mistake really. TW3 has plenty of women that are strong and independent while not being self-centered, self-righteous scumbags. Cerys is probably the best example. Cerys is incredible. Ciri is also great. She's almost as good in battle as Geralt and yet is a good, sociable person. Of course, there's always Triss. All the mages of Novigrad looked to her as a leader for a reason.

But TW doesn't jump up and down screaming "LOOK AT ME, STRONG WOMEN, EQUALITY AND FEMINISM!" so it's rarely acknowledged that they do equality better than the SJW types. 

 

 

PS from user Rifneno

http://forum.bioware...than-tw3/page-5

 

Female mabari like Sera and Vivienne? I don't really know where you are coming up with this, choosing two characters so far from each other and comparing them to mabaris.. dog breed that has no same traits as them o.O Bioware does write great female characters who are very different from each other, which is positive. DAI's female cast are all different, not only personality and storywise, but also lookwise.

 

I don't know how Witcher 3 writes female characters, though article did give some suggestion, some complex characters and some pure fanservice ones. Some complex characters do sound well-written, which is good. Though I really much doubt DA's female characters who are wide cast are second to Witchers.

 

Also how does this change Witchers world-building and sexism that they portray in the game?

[Al Foley]

Female mabari like Sera and Vivienne? I don't really know where you are coming up with this, choosing two characters so far from each other and comparing them to mabaris.. dog breed that has no same traits as them o.O Bioware does write great female characters who are very different from each other, which is positive. DAI's female cast are all different, not only personality and storywise, but also lookwise.

 

I don't know how Witcher 3 writes female characters, though article did give some suggestion, some complex characters and some pure fanservice ones. Some complex characters do sound well-written, which is good. Though I really much doubt DA's female characters who are wide cast are second to Witchers.

 

Also how does this change Witchers world-building and sexism that they portray in the game?

the poster was calling them two *****es.  

 

Edit:  You know the profanity filter in this place really confuses the heck out of me.  

[Aren]

Flemeth is strong and not like Vivienne or Sera. Liara is strong. Leliana and Wynne are strong.

TW3 does give you the feminism in your face line, though in the most cynical and disingenuous way possible: it has Ves, a soldier, wearing some sort of super cleavage atrocity. When questioned about her revealing outfit, she says you're not my dad, I dress how I want! wow. much independent. so agency.

Sorry but i cannot understand your examples.

 

-Flemeth have short in screen time and she is never part of your party in any game,you have few interactions with this character,she is the cryptic and Mysterious woman not someone that i would use as an example.

 

-Leliana I'd call her "all over the place", personally. She's supposed to fill too many shoes, personality-wise, which just means she doesn't fill any properly. That combined with her tendency to have her personality and worldview controlled so much by whatever person she's currently latched onto (Marjolaine, Dorothea, the Warden, Dorothea/Justinia again, the Inquisitor even though we're not remotely as close to her) makes it very hard for me to believe any development,not a strong woman at all.

 

-Wynne  (is she worth considering she is an old lady more as a mentor,but sometimes too preachy)

 

Liara is a female......but she is an asari not a woman

[Aren]

Cassandra, Josephine (well sort of), Morrigan, etc etc...especially Cassandra.  Strong character who happens to be a woman and is very natural about it.  Lets also not forget Aveline.  

Because she is not self centered......love the irony.

Strong and self centered are not synonyms

 

Cassandra is the only one that i will put without no doubt at 1st place of all the DA women,aside from her no one have impressed me,she is strong but not self centered

[Al Foley]

Because she is not self centered......love the irony.

I think that is part of the character arc.  In DA and DA I especially.  She goes from being a self centered 'witch' of a woman to being someone who can care deeply about the lives around her and the people around her, while still not sacrificing her strength.  The Morrigan at the beginning of the franchise is very different from the Morrigan whos tepped into the Fade and offered to sacrifice herself to save Kieran.  

 

Granted the character does bug the crap out of me because I feel her approval system is whacked and its very hard to get to the point where she opens up and starts changing in DA O unless you pull some really fast punches IMO, she is not one of my favorite characters.  But she is a strong character with an interesting arc.  

 

Besides isnt being self centered one of the points in being a strong woman in some senses of the word and also helpful for the diversity in characters BioWare wants to create?  After all, many people say 'we don't need men' that is a very self centered view point yet it gets a lot of credence in some circles.  And Morrigan is unique in her characterization.  

[Aren]

I think that is part of the character arc.  In DA and DA I especially.  She goes from being a self centered 'witch' of a woman to being someone who can care deeply about the lives around her and the people around her, while still not sacrificing her strength.  The Morrigan at the beginning of the franchise is very different from the Morrigan whos tepped into the Fade and offered to sacrifice herself to save Kieran.  

 

Granted the character does bug the crap out of me because I feel her approval system is whacked and its very hard to get to the point where she opens up and starts changing in DA O unless you pull some really fast punches IMO, she is not one of my favorite characters.  But she is a strong character with an interesting arc.  

 

Besides isnt being self centered one of the points in being a strong woman in some senses of the word and also helpful for the diversity in characters BioWare wants to create?  After all, many people say 'we don't need men' that is a very self centered view point yet it gets a lot of credence in some circles.  And Morrigan is unique in her characterization.  

Caring for a person who is close (due to family bound) doesn't mean she cares about the lives around her,i still remember that she violated my Inq Order while stabbed Abelas in the back , he have done no harm to my squad.

If with strong you mean these kind of bullying,   clearly it's not my thought

She seek blindly the power of the well despite the danger even if Kieran exist,this is not a great behaviour development after 9 years from DAO

[Joseph Warrick]

Too old - doesn't count as a woman!

Man. It really is telling.

Your point was: When BW tries for a "strong woman", they write a (female mabari).

It's simply not the case. Thanks. Play again.

[giveamanafish...]

From the article quoted in the OP:

 

"Inquisition tests preconceived notions by depicting a world in which currently contentious subjects—for instance, trans characters and gay characters—are accepted, not squabbled over..... [In contrast] CD Projekt Red’s game stares down problems—it attempts to depict things as they are rather than sugarcoating them. To interrogate, dissect, and understand. That approach can create a space for reflection, discussion, and growth. Both games are valid."

 

I'm not sure of the article writer's logic here. Does the Witcher 3 have trans and gay characters the issues surrounding which players can squabble over?  If not the contrast doesn't seem valid. I don't think PTSD and spousal abuse, as in the example from the Witcher storyline,used by the authour, are contentious issues -- people almost universally want to help the victims in both situations.

[Al Foley]

From the article quoted in the OP:

 

"Inquisition tests preconceived notions by depicting a world in which currently contentious subjects—for instance, trans characters and gay characters—are accepted, not squabbled over..... [In contrast] CD Projekt Red’s game stares down problems—it attempts to depict things as they are rather than sugarcoating them. To interrogate, dissect, and understand. That approach can create a space for reflection, discussion, and growth. Both games are valid."

 

I'm not sure of the article writer's logic here. Does the Witcher 3 have trans and gay characters the issues surrounding which players can squabble over?  If not the contrast doesn't seem valid. I don't think PTSD and spousal abuse are contentious issues -- people almost universally want to help the victims in both situations.

Which the quote does not make it seem like the author played the game considering in both cases, Krem and Dorian, they face opposition from their Tevinter Culture.  So much so they both had to flee that culture.  

[Panda]

the poster was calling them two *****es.  

 

Edit:  You know the profanity filter in this place really confuses the heck out of me.  

 

Oh, I was just thinking what personality traits female mabaris in general have and wondered how Sera and Vivienne would fit XD

 

Yep it's confusing. I don't like it at all and I don't know why it's even needed. I'm guessing it's cultural difference.

[Al Foley]

Oh, I was just thinking what personality traits female mabaris in general have and wondered how Sera and Vivienne would fit XD

 

Yep it's confusing. I don't like it at all and I don't know why it's even needed. I'm guessing it's cultural difference.

Well its inconsistent as hell.  I typed out one word in another threat and it was starred out.  I typed out the same word in this thread with the exception of 'es' and the whle word was there.  

[Evamitchelle]

Oh, you know what else CDPR > Bioware at? Writing strong women. When BW tries for a "strong woman", they write a (female mabari). Like Vivienne or Sera. Pretty common mistake really. TW3 has plenty of women that are strong and independent while not being self-centered, self-righteous scumbags. Cerys is probably the best example. Cerys is incredible. Ciri is also great. She's almost as good in battle as Geralt and yet is a good, sociable person. Of course, there's always Triss. All the mages of Novigrad looked to her as a leader for a reason.

But TW doesn't jump up and down screaming "LOOK AT ME, STRONG WOMEN, EQUALITY AND FEMINISM!" so it's rarely acknowledged that they do equality better than the SJW types. 

 

 

PS from user Rifneno

http://forum.bioware...than-tw3/page-5

 

This is such a weird argument. I mean, if anyone, Cassandra and Aveline are much closer to the archetype of the "Strong Female Character" than Vivienne (scheming politician) and Sera (kind of bratty Robin Hood). I'd say one of Bioware's strengths re: writing women is that they don't fall into the "strong female" trap, instead they write women as people with different strengths and weaknesses. So yes, some of them are pretty abrasive, some of them are a lot more personable. Having both is more interesting than just having hyper-competent women who are nice about it, which is what that poster seems to think make a strong, independent character. Though I don't know if that applies to TW3's female characters, I haven't played it and probably won't anytime soon (I gave up halfway through TW1 because I found the combat tedious).

[Seraphim24]

Generic nothing article to be honest. "Everyone does everything good, it's all valid,"

 

This kind of endless aspirational attitude that games have to do X or Y or Z better is starting to become nauseating because quite frankly most video games are pretty much exactly the same they've been content wise for however many years now.

 

The Witcher 3 is pretty much literally exactly the same as The Witcher 2, which is pretty much exactly the same as The Witcher 1. In spiritual concept, at least.

 

It's the same with Dragon Age, there aren't really any substantial changes anywhere, well, unless you count the volume of commentary.