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[midnight tea]

You are trying to throw in the makeup/lipstick point as if this makes women even MORE subject to being oversexualized which is just not making sense. Women by default where lipstick in wear makeup whereas most men don't. Hell, there is an entire BILLION dollar industry aimed at female beauty/hair products.

 

 

See. THIS is the problem with your thinking. Why are you claiming that women wear lipstick BY DEFAULT? Why SHOULD they even wear lipstick by default? Or why shouldn't men wear lipstick by default too, if they wanted to?

 

Also - there's entire billion-dollar industry targeting women, but have you ever wondered WHY it targets predominantly women? WHy certain industries pander to certain genders in the first place?

 

No, for you it's just... default, it seems. It how it was and how it should be, it seems. And that is your problem.

[In Exile]

Really, that scenario can more accurately be interpreted as Morrigan using you for her own benefits, since the whole reason she goes along is her (and Flemeth's) desire for an OGB. 

 

Plus, the scene isn't sexy. With a male PC, it's basically "impregnate me during this blood magic sex ritual or risk having to wipe yourself out of existence to stop the blight". With a female PC, it's "convince this person I cannot get along with and actively dislike to impregnate me in a blood magic sex ritual or risk wiping yourself out of existence". There's other lovely stuff added on top, like maybe your character is in love with Morrigan or the person you have to convince to impregnate her. 

[midnight tea]

Counter point:Why do most male main characters strong solders, narrow waste, super 6 -8 pack abs, and fit bodies? How is that not being serialized?

 

How is that even a counter-point? I've addressed this thing TWICE already.

 

Gawd, gotta love the level of reading comprehension on Internet sometimes...

[andy6915]

Tsk, tsk - I'd say that hating on feminism is rather like hating on LGBT movement. Is LGBT movement about bigotry? Women may not face as much discrimination as homosexual people still do today, but there are still some issues that can be legitimately discussed through and addressed.

 

Anyway, calling feminism bigotry or just basing opinion of entire movement just based on one (biased) video series, or calling people "very ignorant" just because they have a different opinion on the matter doesn't really foster atmosphere in which any discussion can exist, because it immediately antagonizes any person who either chooses to call themselves feminists (or are deemed as feminists... which happens frequently any time some sort of gender issue arises). I mean, comparing feminism to KKK puts you very close to violating Godwin's Law to begin with and is nothing other than a tactic to shut the mouth of anyone who disagrees with you. 

 

One is about equal rights, one is about bullying everyone else and being a hate movement... Yeah, real comparable.

 

And it's not one video series. He's done dozens of vids, and often feminism has something to do with them. And there's many other Youtubers that will tell you the same stuff, like Karen Straughan, thunderf00t, doctorRandomercam. I've learned far more about this subject thanks to them than you've EVER learned.

 

Funny, shutting down anyone who disagrees? That's feminism's main tactic. Anyone who disagrees is just a misogynist who should be ignored. Like you know what feminists do at every single men's rights thing done in public? They come in with blow horns and constantly pull the fire alarm so no one can hear anything. No MRA has EVER done that at a feminist thing. Or how about how many times they make a false harassment complaint on Twitter or false DMCA complaint to get a video removed that they don't like? No anti-feminists do that, just the feminists.

[leaguer of one]

See. THIS is the problem with your thinking. Why are you claiming that women wear lipstick BY DEFAULT? Why SHOULD they even wear lipstick by default? Or why shouldn't men wear lipstick by default too, if they wanted to?

 

Also - there's entire billion-dollar industry targeting women, but have you ever wondered WHY it targets predominantly women? WHy certain industries pander to certain genders in the first place?

 

No, for you it's just... default, it seems. It how it was and how it should be, it seems. And that is your problem.

Because cultraly speaking woman wear  make up. It's a fact. These are thing done for self appeal or to attract a partner. Men have there was  as well with shaving. gender culture is in no way equal to sexualiation.

[Il Divo]

Plus, the scene isn't sexy. With a male PC, it's basically "impregnate me during this blood magic sex ritual or risk having to wipe yourself out of existence to stop the blight". With a female PC, it's "convince this person I cannot get along with and actively dislike to impregnate me in a blood magic sex ritual or risk wiping yourself out of existence". There's other lovely stuff added on top, like maybe your character is in love with Morrigan or the person you have to convince to impregnate her. 

 

Agreed. Really, just the idea of Morrigan being a sex object just seems so utterly foreign to her entire presentation. I guess it could be argued that the consumation scene with the PC's in their awkward underwear was meant to be "sexy", but I also recall Alistair having a look of fear/uncertainty during that sequence, which kinda ruins the whole tempo if that was the intent.

[andy6915]

By the way, speaking of Karen... To any feminist in here who tries to say it's just extremists or crazy feminists and that true feminism is actually for equality? Watch this. Just nipping this in the bud because I know it's coming or has already happened in this topic.

 

[In Exile]

One is about equal rights, one is about bullying everyone else and being a hate movement... Yeah, real comparable.

 

And it's not one video series. He's done dozens of vids, and often feminism has something to do with them. And there's many other Youtubers that will tell you the same stuff, like Karen Straughan, thunderf00t, doctorRandomercam. I've learned far more about this subject thanks to them than you've EVER learned.

 

Funny, shutting down anyone who disagrees? That's feminism's main tactic. Anyone who disagrees is just a misogynist who's who should be ignored. Like you know what feminists do at every single men's rights thing done in public? They come in with blow horns and constantly pull the fire alarm so no one can hear anything. No MRA has EVER done that at a feminist thing.

 

Talking about "feminism" as if it were some hive-mind political agenda is a bit like talking about "capitalists". It's not a coherent group, people don't have shared views, and major authors can't agree with each other sometimes on the most basic issues. Like, say, sex. Or responses to gender discrimination in the developing world. It's not even about ignorance. It's nonsense. 

 

Also, using some random dipshit on youtube to represent "feminism" is a bit like using some MRA nutter to represent "men". And of course that's like acting there's some coherent template for being an "MRA", which is as silly as saying there's a hive-mind of feminism. 

 

edit: Let me put it this way: you'd never say "you learned about science" from some random on the internet. Sure, people might use Neil Degrassi Tyson as an a public figure they've learned things from... but that's because this is someone with a legitimate and well-respect background in a field giving a public lecture. Dipshit on the internet with an opinion is the worst possible source. Might as well just source a forum post here.  

[Il Divo]

Talking about "feminism" as if it were some hive-mind political agenda is a bit like talking about "capitalists". It's not a coherent group, people don't have shared views, and major authors can't agree with each other sometimes on the most basic issues. Like, say, sex. Or responses to gender discrimination in the developing world. It's not even about ignorance. It's nonsense. 

 

Also, using some random dipshit on youtube to represent "feminism" is a bit like using some MRA nutter to represent "men". And of course that's like acting there's some coherent template for being an "MRA", which is as silly as saying there's a hive-mind of feminism. 

 

Basically, it's the same thing we deal with any time somebody wants to talk about "the" Bioware fans as a collective. 

[KaiserShep]

And no, it's not bigoted to hate feminism. At all. No more than it is to hate the KKK, which is to race what feminism is to gender. And trust me, if you think this... You're very very ignorant about the modern day feminism "movement". You should try watching his "why people hate feminism" series, which that one is part of, and see why I think you're so ignorant about this subject. Feminism is bigotry, not the other way around. I hate feminism because I believe in equality. I was planning to mostly just lurk, but this post here made me decide to not stay silent. You did just attack me out of the blue merely for posting a video that is half an hour long because of how in depth it is on why the wage gap is BS, and you start going on about things I nor the video even bring up.

 

I'm an egalitarian, I'm what feminists pretend to be. Don't lecture me on this subject.

 

The problem with this argument is that "feminism" is not guided by some absolute, uniform ideology, like, say, the Klan would be, which is why that comparison is total bullshit, other than the fact that only one of these "groups" has a long history of extreme violence and opposes civil liberties for other groups entirely. The fact that this comparison is made at all kind of invalidates the rest of this paragraph.

[In Exile]

Agreed. Really, just the idea of Morrigan being a sex object just seems so utterly foreign to her entire presentation. I guess it could be argued that the consumation scene with the PC's in their awkward underwear was meant to be "sexy", but I also recall Alistair having a look of fear/uncertainty during that sequence, which kinda ruins the whole tempo if that was the intent.

 

It may have been how I build his face, but my PC had such a look of abject terror that honestly I couldn't understand how it'd even be physically possible for him to have sex with Morrigan. 

 

That said, you can quibble about Morrigan's presentation more generally. 

[In Exile]

The problem with this argument is that "feminism" is not guided by some absolute, uniform ideology, like, say, the Klan would be, which is why that comparison is total bullshit. The fact that this comparison is made at all kind of invalidates the rest of this paragraph.

Oh, Jesus, I missed the KKK comparison. Whelp, I'm done with this conversation. 

[Jaison1986]

Tsk, tsk - I'd say that hating on feminism is rather like hating on LGBT movement. Is LGBT movement about bigotry? Women may not face as much discrimination as homosexual people still do today, but there are still some issues that can be legitimately discussed through and addressed.

 

Anyway, calling feminism bigotry or just basing opinion of entire movement just based on one (biased) video series, or calling people "very ignorant" just because they have a different opinion on the matter doesn't really foster atmosphere in which any discussion can exist, because it immediately antagonizes any person who either chooses to call themselves feminists (or are deemed as feminists... which happens frequently any time some sort of gender issue arises). I mean, comparing feminism to KKK puts you very close to violating Godwin's Law to begin with and is nothing other than a tactic to shut the mouth of anyone who disagrees with you. 

 

Wrong. You're just putting the movement on a pedestal. It's perfectly possible to not like feminism and still believe in gender equality. It's such an simple concept people fail to realize. The problem is not cause, the problem is the people behind the cause. In the western world the feminists achieve most of the things they set out to achieve. In this time and age feminism became obsolete. Any injustice woman suffer can be taken to the law just like anyone else. Woman cling to it out of entitlement or because they don't know any better. There was once a survey that shows over 80% of american population is in favor of gender equality, and in the same interview, over 80% of these people did not like or did not wanted to be involved with feminism. Isn't that enough to show that the problem is group and not the cause?

[leaguer of one]

How is that even a counter-point? I've addressed this thing TWICE already.

 

Gawd, gotta love the level of reading comprehension on Internet sometimes...

Because your ignoring it. Every time you have an issue with attractive woman being sexual object in game you ignore the fact that it's done so for men as well. 

I can at least say it's implied to woman in some game more than others but both sex are still treated sexually. The human body is an object. The only thing that makes it stand out is the persona's in said body. If that character is well developed and the look is not too outrageous, what does it matter if the characters body is sexualized?

[Legion of 1337]

The patriarchy hurts men too. Just not as much as it hurts women.

Ah yes, I forgot about this 'brilliant' little bit of radfem reasoning you all push.

 

"You're actually helping yourselves (because I guess the implication is matriarchy > patriarchy), so join us in shitting on your half of the species."

 

There is no "patriarchy" in the West anymore because women can no longer be owned by anyone and have the same rights as men. This myth needs to die.

[andy6915]

Talking about "feminism" as if it were some hive-mind political agenda is a bit like talking about "capitalists". It's not a coherent group, people don't have shared views, and major authors can't agree with each other sometimes on the most basic issues. Like, say, sex. Or responses to gender discrimination in the developing world. It's not even about ignorance. It's nonsense. 

 

Also, using some random dipshit on youtube to represent "feminism" is a bit like using some MRA nutter to represent "men". And of course that's like acting there's some coherent template for being an "MRA", which is as silly as saying there's a hive-mind of feminism. 

 

edit: Let me put it this way: you'd never say "you learned about science" from some random on the internet. Sure, people might use Neil Degrassi Tyson as an a public figure they've learned things from... but that's because this is someone with a legitimate and well-respect background in a field giving a public lecture. Dipshit on the internet with an opinion is the worst possible source. Might as well just source a forum post here.  

 

Watch that last video from Karen, the one that is all about how the Not All Feminist/Feminism is nothing but garbage. I don't care about how many "versions" of feminism there is, the overall umbrella of feminism is absolutely awful. Sargon isn't a dipshit, and I can absolutely f*cking promise that you didn't watch that video. Because of course you didn't, can't have a video making you questing your dogma and the narrative you've been swallowing your whole life.

[KaiserShep]

Wrong. You're just putting the movement on a pedestal. It's perfectly possible to not like feminism and still believe in gender equality. It's such an simple concept people fail to realize. The problem is not cause, the problem is the people behind the cause. In the western world the feminists achieve most of the things they set out to achieve. In this time and age feminism became obsolete. Any injustice woman suffer can be taken to the law just like anyone else. Woman cling to it out of entitlement or because they don't know any better. There was once a survey that shows over 80% of american population is in favor of gender equality, and in the same interview, over 80% of these people did not like or did not wanted to be involved with feminism. Isn't that enough to show that the problem is group and not the cause?

 

Personally, I don't see why these concepts need to be mutually exclusive. At the same time, however, I don't always take polls seriously, because people are idiots and don't often understand what words mean. Ask most of those yokels what they think feminism means, and their definitions will probably be amusing. 

[In Exile]

Wrong. You're just putting the movement on a pedestal. It's perfectly possible to not like feminism and still believe in gender equality. It's such an simple concept people fail to realize. The problem is not cause, the problem is the people behind the cause. In the western world the feminists achieve most of the things they set out to achieve. In this time and age feminism became obsolete. Any injustice woman suffer can be taken to the law just like anyone else. Woman cling to it out of entitlement or because they don't know any better. There was once a survey that shows over 80% of american population is in favor of gender equality, and in the same interview, over 80% of these people did not like or did not wanted to be involved with feminism. Isn't that enough to show that the problem is group and not the cause?

 

That doesn't mean anything. I'm sure 80%+ of Americans are in favour of "not having a racist society", but that's a generic platitude that doesn't mean very much. I mean, first of all, why the hell are 20% of people against gender equality in a survey like that one? 

 

Social issues don't magically get fixed at some point in time, where you can just declare some arbitrary label pointless. Let's go back to "capitalist". Human prosperity in the 'Western' world increased exponentially in the 19th and 20th centuries. But it would be just ridiculous nonsense to say "capitalism" achieved it's goals, we can put the whole thing to bed, and it's time to move on to new ideas.

[leaguer of one]

Watch that last video. I don't care about how many "versions" of feminism there is, the overall umbrella of feminism is absolutely awful. Sargon isn't a dipshit, and I can absolutely f*cking promise that you didn't watch that video. Because of course you didn't, can't have a video making you questing your dogma and the narrative you've been swallowing your whole life.

Speaking of Dogma...

 

"Rufus: He still digs humanity, but it bothers Him to see the **** that gets carried out in His name - wars, bigotry, televangelism. But especially the factioning of all the religions. He said humanity took a good idea and, like always, built a belief structure on it.

Bethany: Having beliefs isn't good?

Rufus: I think it's better to have ideas. You can change an idea. Changing a belief is trickier..."

Quoted from the movie Dogma.

[Panda]

Yeah lets just ignore the fact that the most powerful characters in Witcher lore are female (sorceresses). Let's also ignore the fact that Geralt spends most of the game as Yennefer's lapdog, getting ordered around. Also, Ciri the demigod who can wipe out an entire legion with a thought. But yeah, yeah, women in the Witcher just straight up suck. Can't help themselves. Oh, the poor things.

 

I don't like really like seeing sexism in games. Even if it's called out and used as kind of shout out to female players like ME, hey this guy is being sexist pig and you can call them out/punch them for it. I'd rather have fantasy world with gender equality than deal with cat-calls and PC's looking down my character or other characters just because they are woman. Witchers actual female characters and how powerful and well-written they are are another issue. The thing I dislike is this unnervingly sexist world CD Project has build with Witcher no matter how realistic it is.

[andy6915]

Seriously, anyone who wants to maybe have their mind opened, look up the people I mentioned. Karen Straughan, SargonofAkkad, and doctorRandomercam (who's the funniest person I've seen on Youtube). If you're too into the ideology you'll just ignore what those people say, but if you're like I was where you once thought you was a feminist because you thought they actually were for equality... Well, you might have your eyes opened.

[Dieb]

Damnit!

 

I was just chased around the block, and my son was expelled from school for some flimsy reason, because the headmaster was secretly a feminist! Good thing a brother from the Klan offered us shelter until this madness blows over.

[Legion of 1337]

I did not say female characters are treated better in one game than another, if that's what you understand then I think you read the wrong post. I said, it is very obvious that DAI's utopic strong and independend unicorn women theme does not reflect the view of the writers honestly. I don't think it's anything more than a way to try to make the game sell more, to make more profit, considering the very same writers were proud of materializing the most important female character  so much that they had someone draw a comic about it. What I was saying in short is this, in case you still fail to understand; In the first, second and the third witcher games, the world is still same for the women, homosexuals and transgenders. In DAO and DAI, however, the world and the veiw of the writers regarding women and homosexuals are worlds aparts. In DAO, Morrigan was basically a sex toy that the warden could "use" to make sure all the wardens survive. In DAI, however, women are not sex toys, they do not "require" a man for anything unlike Morrigan needed so desparately, and women are strong, independant, brilliant, amazing unicorns. There's no honesty in it, it is obviously just a marketing strategy, let's not kid ourselves.

I'm not sure where you're getting this "sex toy" thing. This isn't the modern day, there's no sperm banks in Thedas, if you want a kid it has to be done the old fashioned way. Morrigan, if anything, is trying to manipulate the Warden and "use" them, not the other way around. She basically leans on the 4th wall by telling the player "hey, give me what I want and your character doesn't have to die", which as we all know is a very effective method since players are so attached to their characters. In fact, most of the dialogue options are affirmative (showing that evidently the writers want you to do it too), and you have to be persistent and willing to completely shatter any goodwill you have with her up to that point in order to completely refuse.

[In Exile]

Watch that last video from Karen, the one that is all about how the Not All Feminist/Feminism is nothing but garbage. I don't care about how many "versions" of feminism there is, the overall umbrella of feminism is absolutely awful. Sargon isn't a dipshit, and I can absolutely f*cking promise that you didn't watch that video. Because of course you didn't, can't have a video making you questing your dogma and the narrative you've been swallowing your whole life.

 

I don't actually care about these issues. I come from a country that has gender and social issues that are very different from the ones that dominate American media and culture. 

 

But, again, listening to you or some other random on the internet spouting an opinion isn't an argument against a concept. It's someone spouting an opinion. And, for the record, I did listen to your videos. It's an inchoate rant, on the one hand making intellectual vacuous claims that generally don't follow as actual criticisms of "feminism", and on the other hand, filled with empirical assertions without empirical evidence. It's, like I said, a random with an opinion. 

 

There are lots of structural, conceptual and social issues bound up with the academic movement generally labelled as "feminism", from a social, political and philosophical POV. Take, for example, Catherine McKinnon, who makes an interest intellectual point that's arbitrary restricted to gender for no principled reason and is wrapped up in incredibly inflammatory rhetoric (and strange metaphors and similes). But that inchoate rant isn't a criticism of it. It's an argument in favour of improving literacy. 

[MoonDrummer]

Damnit!

 

I was just chased around the block, and my son was expelled from school for some flimsy reason, because the headmaster was secretly a feminist! Good thing a brother from the Klan offered us shelter until this madness blows over.