Aller au contenu

Photo

Interesting article from Kotaku's Nathan Grayson about portrayal of women in games. DA:I is also mentioned in it.


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
561 réponses à ce sujet

#251
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages

Damnit!

 

I was just chased around the block, and my son was expelled from school for some flimsy reason, because the headmaster was secretly a feminist! Good thing a brother from the Klan offered us shelter until this madness blows over.

 

I was once suspended from school because 2 girls who didn't like me decided to make of accusations of sexual harassment. They warned me ahead of time, and I told them it wouldn't work. They basically said that being female means they'll be believed by default, and that them going together would pretty much mean gameover for me. I doubted them right until I was called into the principals office.

 

Does that count as madness?



#252
SnakeCode

SnakeCode
  • Members
  • 2 674 messages

Wrong. You're just putting the movement on a pedestal. It's perfectly possible to not like feminism and still believe in gender equality. It's such an simple concept people fail to realize. The problem is not cause, the problem is the people behind the cause. In the western world the feminists achieve most of the things they set out to achieve. In this time and age feminism became obsolete. Any injustice woman suffer can be taken to the law just like anyone else. Woman cling to it out of entitlement or because they don't know any better. There was once a survey that shows over 80% of american population is in favor of gender equality, and in the same interview, over 80% of these people did not like or did not wanted to be involved with feminism. Isn't that enough to show that the problem is group and not the cause?

 

Honestly, the whole "If you're for gender equality then you're a feminist" or "If you aren't a feminist then you're a bigot/sexist/against equality" things that you hear are nothing more than attempts to strong-arm or guilt trip people into either joining or approving of the movement/s. As you say, one can absolutely be pro- gender equality and NOT identity as a feminist or even agree with feminism.

 

That said, this is remarkably off topic, how did we get on to feminism? Was it the patriarchy quote?


  • andy6915, Zeroth Angel, 9TailsFox et 5 autres aiment ceci

#253
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 774 messages

Honestly, the whole "If you're for gender equality then you're a feminist" or "If you aren't a feminist then you're a bigot/sexist/against equality" things that you hear are nothing more than attempts to strong-arm or guilt trip people into either joining or approving of the movement/s. As you say, one can absolutely be pro- gender equality and NOT identity as a feminist or even agree with feminism.

 

That said, this is remarkably off topic, how did we get on to feminism? Was it the patriarchy quote?

 

With a topic like portrayal of women in games, that's inevitably going to be where the conversation turns at one point. And likely to be where it ends, since I foresee a mod stepping in sooner or later. 



#254
KaiserShep

KaiserShep
  • Members
  • 23 844 messages

That said, this is remarkably off topic, how did we get on to feminism? Was it the patriarchy quote?

 

Well, this thread is about portrayal of women in games, so it's not that far off topic, though this subject never really ends well.


  • Panda aime ceci

#255
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages

I don't actually care about these issues. I come from a country that has gender and social issues that are very different from the ones that dominate American media and culture. 

 

But, again, listening to you or some other random on the internet spouting an opinion isn't an argument against a concept. It's someone spouting an opinion. And, for the record, I did listen to your videos. It's an inchoate rant, on the one hand making intellectual vacuous claims that generally don't follow as actual criticisms of feminism, and on the other hand, filled with empirical assertions without empirical evidence. It's, like I said, a random with an opinion. 

 

There are lots of structural, conceptual and social issues bound up with the academic movement generally labelled as "feminism", from a social, political and philosophical POV. But that inchoate rant isn't a criticism of it. It's an argument in favour of improving literacy. 

 

Sargon's video was an incoherant rant? The video that is half an hour long because of detail that needs an entire pastebin link just to hold all the citations and sources? Are you sh!tting me?! It couldn't BE MORE coherent.

 

This is incoherent-

 

http://pastebin.com/FNHjaQMv

 

 

Are you sure you're talking about the right vid? Even if you meant the Karen one instead, every single thing she mentioned in that video is true. Of course, without prior knowledge you'll think it's horsecrap because of how nuts it sounds. But for someone who actually has knowledge about this subject, you know that everything she lists that feminism as a movement does... Actually does those things.



#256
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Honestly, the whole "If you're for gender equality then you're a feminist" or "If you aren't a feminist then you're a bigot/sexist/against equality" things that you hear are nothing more than attempts to strong-arm or guilt trip people into either joining or approving of the movement/s. As you say, one can absolutely be pro- gender equality and NOT identity as a feminist or even agree with feminism.

 

That said, this is remarkably off topic, how did we get on to feminism? Was it the patriarchy quote?

 

Using an random person who ascribes (or eschews) the label of "feminist" is a bit like, again, using the opinion of some random as representative of "capitalism". A hard-right libertarian from the middle of the Midwestern US isn't qualified to speak on, say, economics and economic policy anymore than some ultra-left wing socialist/communist from the UK is qualified to speak on the same. The fact that these people throw around concepts - "supply side economics", "Keynesian economics", etc. isn't something that amounts to an intellectual position. It's an echo chamber, where people are just throwing around their poorly though out opinions. 

 

Which is why, again, the actual proper response here is to encourage people to properly engage with the source material they're trying to source. Adam West being a great example, here, who literally thought there was an actual "Invisible Hand" (i.e., God) who had to interfere in the market because otherwise it was immoral. 


  • Korva et Il Divo aiment ceci

#257
Dieb

Dieb
  • Members
  • 4 631 messages

Ferris Bueller teaches us not to believe in isms.



#258
midnight tea

midnight tea
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages

Speaking as someone who is Eastern European of descent, having in part grown up here, that just doesn't capture the division. It's like talking about the similarity between German and American culture culture. I mean, sure, to an external observer there is a great deal of similarity, and in the modern period there is a great deal of shared history, but that really doesn't capture very important differences in how stories are told and what ultimate cultural values (see e.g. attitudes toward sex and violence, or attitudes toward legal immigration and immigrants). 

 

Poland, for example, is not very much like Romania, which is not very much like the Albania. There are different languages, alphabets, a different historical relationships with the Turks, the Muslim faith, and Catholicism. 

 

Speaking as someone who actually lives here... I agree. I mean, I never said that there are no differences, in fact I explicitly said that Eastern European culture shouldn't be treated as monolith.

 

I'm just saying that overall, Eastern/Central European culture has a somewhat different flavor compared to that of Western Europe and while a lot of Witcher is sort of generic, Middle Ages/Renaissance period-inspired fantasy, a lot of it can be viewed as a love-letter to local folk beliefs and old myths, with an aim to likely showcase that we do indeed have our own myths (lol, despite the fact that Poland has been always torn between East and West, but always harbored an ambition to be viewed as Western Country, to a point that in schools we learn more about Greek/Roman myths more than our own) and our own cultural identity.

 

That is NOT to say that people should confuse gritty, bloody tone of Witcher games to "how things were and are all across Eastern Europe". In fact, I'm quite annoyed by that.

 

 

 

There were a lot of structural and social problems endemic in communism, and the optimistic post-revolutionary period was something that (depending on the country we're talking about) wore off pretty quickly. The kind of cynicism about human nature that's inherent in the Witcher - the books, in part, though Geralt is an almost comical "SJW" in there, and the games a lot more - is a reflection of the kind of cynicism you see in post-communist dictatorships. 

 

Oh it wore off suuuper-quickly. I grew up in 90-ties in Poland and can attest that in terms of mood or attitude of people at that time things were almost schizophrenic. People finally began shaking their cynicism and pessimism off after joining EU, when things actually began looking fairly well. It's not like cynicism or complaining is over though, but I'd say that after two more decades (as well as 2010 Presidential Jet disaster in Katyn) it kinda re-contextualized itself - now, at least Poland, is divided into carefully optimistic (though somewhat frustrated) and somewhat progressive half that just tries to live decent life and one that is very right-wing, fairly nationalistic, protective of traditions and wary of change.

 

If we take that into account, I think some of CDPRs choices with narrative may not just reflect Sapkowski's observations on 90-ties, but are (more or less subtle) jabs into rhetoric spun by our far-right populist politicians and activists (and some of them are craaaaaaazy. Tea Party crazy I'd say. What's worse, our center-right government - inept as it was in many regards - has now lost its steam and those delightful delinquents are now marching for power....)

 

 

 

 

But to me the cultural values - and the ways that they're different - are so apparent in the Witcher, and in the (translated) books. 
 
It's a bit like how Bioware games are so very Canadian in a lot of ways, and seem more progressive to Americans just because of our cross-border differences in what social issues are important and in how they are seen. 

 

Well, like you said, Geralt sometimes almost passes as near-comical SJW in Witcher, which is why I sometimes feel Bioware's DA is closer in spirit to Sapkowski's books than Witcher games are, lol. 


  • AllThatJazz et In Exile aiment ceci

#259
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages

Ferris Bueller teaches us not to believe in isms.

And I agree. Ism's never go well. Ever.



#260
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Sargon's video was an incoherant rant? The video that is half an hour long because of detail that needs an entire pastebin link just to hold all the citations and sources? Are you sh!tting me?! It couldn't BE MORE coherent.

 

Are you sure you're talking about the right vid? Even if you meant the Karen one instead, every single thing she mentioned in that video is true. Of course, without prior knowledge you'll think it's horsecrap because of how nuts it sounds. But for someone who actually has knowledge about this subject, you know that everything she lists that feminism as a movement does... Does those things.

 

Sargon's video is nonsense. An argument doesn't become sensible because it's sourced. That's a bit like a C+ student arguing they deserved an A because "I had sources! Lots of them! Many pages of bibliographies!" I'm not about to post a response video, or write an essay why I think the video is incorrect. If that makes you think less of me, well, I'm pretty much okay with that one. 

 

As I said: I don't think highly of the vast majority of scholarship that gets labelled as "feminist", because I think it's not particularly well-articulated from a conceptual POV. There are brilliant and insightful analyses of power dynamics and social culture within that field, but all of these ideas apply generally and the authors privilege gender as an issue for no principled reason. 



#261
leaguer of one

leaguer of one
  • Members
  • 9 995 messages

And I agree. Ism's never go well. Ever.

This makes me want to watch Dogma again.



#262
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages

I'm sure that video is an incoherent rant - it's some random on the internet. For example, the gender pay gap is an unbelievably complex phenomenon that requires an incredible amount of statistical, economic and social know-how to even begin to investigate properly. With the appropriate background we can start looking into the studies that illustrate a pay gap - and they are varied and inconsistent with one another even if notionally they demonstrate that, depending on how you define it, some statistically significant gap exists - but that's different from someone espousing an opinion. 

 

Sargon's video is nonsense. An argument doesn't become sensible because it's sourced. That's a bit like a C+ student arguing they deserved an A because "I had sources! Lots of them! Many pages of bibliographies!" I'm not about to post a response video, or write an essay why I think the video is incorrect. If that makes you think less of me, well, I'm pretty much okay with that one. 

 

As I said: I don't think highly of the vast majority of scholarship that gets labelled as "feminist", because I think it's not particularly well-articulated from a conceptual POV. There are brilliant and insightful analyses of power dynamics and social culture within that field, but all of these ideas apply generally and the authors privilege gender as an issue for no principled reason. 

 

So you didn't watch it, assume something with 30+ citations is crap, assume the things you think are true are actually true because you don't want to question ingrained narratives... You just completely proved my point. You're afraid to watch it, despite any excuse you give. Every single reason here is "assumption assumption conclusion", which always is a red flag about the real reasons someone seems to be specifically avoid stepping out of their comfort zone. The one thing that makes you not want to watch it is the thought that "truths" you take for granted might not be true like you thought.

 

So yeah, I do think less of you. Like a child you plugged your ears and started yelling, that's pathetic.



#263
General TSAR

General TSAR
  • Members
  • 4 384 messages

Also when you have games like Grand Theft Auto 5 selling as much as it does with its VERY open message of women as sex objects/inferior to men and what not,

If that's what you believe is the message of GTA, then you completely missed the point.


  • Jaison1986 et SnakeCode aiment ceci

#264
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

So you didn't watch it, assume something with 30+ citations is crap, assume the things you think are true are actually true because you don't want to question ingrained narratives... You just completely proved my point. You're afraid to watch it, despite any excuse you give. Every single reason here is "assumption assumption conclusion", which always is a red flag about the real reasons someone seems to be specifically avoid stepping out of their comfort zone. The one thing that makes you not want to watch it is the thought that "truths" you take for granted might not be true like you thought.

 

So yeah, I do think less of you. Like a child you plugged your ears and started yelling, that's pathetic.

 

There's no "ingrained narrative". As I've explained to you - on multiple occasions, in fact - the debate over a gender pay gap - and the extent to which it exists and what explains the effect - is an incredibly complicated social, economic, and political question that turns, in part, on debates about social sciences methodology and the validity of the statistical modelling being used.

 

That video, when you get past the almost unending deluge of childish potshots, doesn't substantively engage with any meaningful issue relating to the existence of the paygap. It provides a list of vacuous truisms, starting from an idea that's been academically described for more than a decade, which is that there's a uniform single "gap" that's useful for anything other than rhetoric and propaganda. Then it plays "leap to conclusion". 

 

What "truth" do you think I'm denying about gender pay gaps? Let's play a game here. Point out where - in this thread - I've even acknowledged the truth of one assertion that video ascribes to "feminists", beyond my general claim that - depending on how one defines "gap" - a statistically significant result exists. 



#265
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages

There's no "ingrained narrative". As I've explained to you - on multiple occasions, in fact - the debate over a gender pay gap - and the extent to which it exists and what explains the effect - is an incredibly complicated social, economic, and political question that turns, in part, on debates about social sciences methodology and the validity of the statistical modelling being used.

 

That video, when you get past the almost unending deluge of childish potshots, doesn't substantively engage with any meaningful issue relating to the existence of the paygap. It provides a list of vacuous truisms, starting from an idea that's been academically described for more than a decade, which is that there's a uniform single "gap" that's useful for anything other than rhetoric and propaganda. Then it plays "leap to conclusion". 

 

What "truth" do you think I'm denying about gender pay gaps? Let's play a game here. Point out where - in this thread - I've even acknowledged the truth of one assertion that video ascribes to "feminists", beyond my general claim that - depending on how one defines "gap" - a statistically significant result exists. 

 

No, it provides a very long list of facts and math that absolutely and completely disprove the wage gap as some sign of sexism or patriarchy, a so-called fact that feminists harp on about as one of their strongest pieces of evidence that the patriarchy is real. Period. If you can't see that, you're either not watching and pretending you are or you're being willfully obtuse on purpose.

 

No matter, other people who watch it will actually get informed. Unlike you.



#266
General TSAR

General TSAR
  • Members
  • 4 384 messages

Perhaps this could explain why TW3 has such a high metacritic user score while DAI has a very low score.

Maybe because DAI is so much more glitchly than TW3?



#267
midnight tea

midnight tea
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages

Maybe because DAI is so much more glitchly than TW3?

 

Is it? The major issue people/reviewers have with TW3 is how glitchy it is... Most reviewers I've seen say t's a masterpiece, but "a very messy masterpiece".

 

Can't say I've had many issues with DAI or TW3, personally, but it may be because I have a very decent computer.



#268
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

No, it provides a very long list of facts and math that absolutely and completely disprove the wage gap as some sign of sexism or patriarchy, a so-called fact that feminists harp on about as one of their strongest pieces of evidence that the patriarchy is real. Period. If you can't see that, you're either not watching and pretending you are or you're being willfully obtuse on purpose.

 

No matter, other people who watch it will actually get informed. Unlike you.

 

No, it doesn't. We're going around in circles here. The video is focused on the 0.77 figure, which, as I said, has been discredited for some time. It reviews the typical truisms that were used to show the issue with that figure - namely, that the fundamental assumption that it's an apples to apples comparison is actually false. The real scholarship is in those underlying relationships, and whether - and to what extent - they say anything about inequality. For example, the distribution of women vs. men in part-time or temporary jobs and the difference in negotiating over salary and compensation across genders. 

 

Not to mention - and it just occurred to me - that you think studying a gender pay gap is exclusively about some limited inquiry into proving that women are paid, universally, less than men. But that's not true, either. Research into the gender pay gap is research into whether there are statistically significant effects in pay between genders. The question after that - what should we do about it - is totally separate from the empirical question. That's the social engineering question. 

 

That video can only be considered "insightful" to someone who - ignoring, again, the repeated inflammatory rhetoric - has just never come across any economic scholarship on the subject of the pay gap, basically, ever. 



#269
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages

Is it? The major issue people/reviewers have with TW3 is how glitchy it is... Most reviewers I've seen say t's a masterpiece, but "a very messy masterpiece".

 

Can't say I've had many issues with DAI or TW3, personally, but it may be because I have a very decent computer.

 

It's starting to seem like only Nintendo releases games that are actually relatively bug free anymore. In fact, it's starting to feel like games are being pushed out early with the knowledge that their fanbase will basically bug test the game for them for free via complaining on message boards and customer service.


  • The Elder King aime ceci

#270
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages
That video can only be considered "insightful" to someone who - ignoring, again, the repeated inflammatory rhetoric - has just never come across any economic scholarship on the subject of the pay gap, basically, ever. 

 

Which is actually a hell of a lot of people, and seemingly every feminist on the planet considering how ridiculously often they bring it up.

 

I hope this hasn't soured anything. Despite me saying I think less of you earlier, you're one of my more liked people on here... So let's not let this ruin future interaction on here, okay? I am partly saying this because I think we were basically agreeing without realizing it, because you do seem informed on the wage gap after all... And partly because I don't want you hating me on here. Did you watch the whole vid though? You should still love at the whole mini series of "why people hate feminism", it's still pretty interesting and gives the absolute best look at why people are starting to be against it. I used to count myself as a feminist back when I was ignorant about what a nest of vipers it was, and my mind had to be changed the hard way to make me realize it.

 

Hope I don't become a pariah for saying some of the things I said in here :unsure:.



#271
midnight tea

midnight tea
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages

No, it provides a very long list of facts and math that absolutely and completely disprove the wage gap as some sign of sexism or patriarchy, a so-called fact that feminists harp on about as one of their strongest pieces of evidence that the patriarchy is real. Period. If you can't see that, you're either not watching and pretending you are or you're being willfully obtuse on purpose.

 

No matter, other people who watch it will actually get informed. Unlike you.

 

Yes, yes - and HeyRuka (or whatever her name was) a few years back also had a very long list of "sources" that proved that 'race is a thing' and that white people are superior, just like there's a TON of creationists ready to prove with their numerous sources that the Earth is flat, 4,000 years old and people lived with dinosaurs.

 

..... Yet, every single time people actually took time to dismantle it, it turned out that sources were an unholy mess of references to highly-opinionated blogs or questionable material, a mother-load of quotemined quotes and entirely misrepresented or misred research papers that actually made an opposite point to the one they tried to make.


  • Korva et 5ubzer0 aiment ceci

#272
Torgette

Torgette
  • Members
  • 1 422 messages

So what most people think or want to discuss should be the guide eh? Popularity =/= the best idea necessarily, it's absurd to equate the two automatically.

 

Clearly, but that is how we tick.



#273
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages

Yes, yes - and HeyRuka (or however her name was) a few years back also had a very long list of "sources" that proved that 'race is a thing' and that white people are superior, just like there's a TON of creationists ready to prove with their numerous sources that the Earth is flat, 4,000 years old and people lived with dinosaurs.

 

..... Yet, every single time people actually took time to dismantle it, it turned out that sources were an unholy mess of references to highly-opinionated blogs or questionable material, a mother-load of quotemined quotes and entirely misrepresented or misred research papers that actually made an opposite point to the one they tried to make.

 

Didn't watch it, did you? Unlike Exile, you seem to be one of those many people that actually think the wage gap is because of discrimination.



#274
midnight tea

midnight tea
  • Members
  • 4 819 messages

It's starting to seem like only Nintendo releases games that are actually relatively bug free anymore. In fact, it's starting to feel like games are being pushed out early with the knowledge that their fanbase will basically bug test the game for them for free via complaining on message boards and customer service.

 

Personally I don't mind it as long as issues are fixed relatively quickly. I mean, in this time and age, with so many platforms and specifications, things are bound to go bad, while applying a patch has never been simpler (I mean, at least the process of applying the thing, not necessarily fixing the bug).

 

HTisMpC.jpg


  • Ariella aime ceci

#275
andy6915

andy6915
  • Members
  • 6 590 messages

Personally I don't mind it as long as issues are fixed relatively quickly. I mean, in this time and age, with so many platforms and specifications, things are bound to go bad, while applying a patch has never been simpler (I mean, at least the process of applying the thing, not necessarily fixing the bug).

 

HTisMpC.jpg

 

It's funny how we can go from friendly to spitting venom from one post to the next. Feminism post, venom. Gaming post, friendly and diplomatic :lol:.

 

Anyway, I like that image. I just brought Bull to the bad future quest earlier, and heard him singing the bottle version of that song in his cell.