561 réponses à ce sujet

[Urzon]

So basically another sunday

Basically. Though if the thread isn't locked, and it rolls over into Monday, we can probably expect another "invigorating" discussion then as well.

[andy6915]

I read this entire paragraph hearing Sera's voice saying it.

 
You're... Right. That is pretty much a perfect Sera impression .
 

Basically. Though if the thread isn't locked, and it rolls over into Monday, we can probably expect another "invigorating" discussion then as well.

Ugh. I don't look forward to that if that happens.

[raging_monkey]

One can hope I guess

[andy6915]

Absolutely nothing. DAI is simply used as a flimsy discussion starters for slightly trolly well meaning and polite arguments discussions between SJWs and their bizzaro counterparts tactful debaters over the politics of today.

I'm not tactful and don't claim to be such. I don't debate well, I get heated easily and escalate arguments once I start getting too passionate. That's a problem of mine, I have passion for certain subjects which causes me to argue fiercely about said subjects if I get going about it. The phrase "don't get me started" is quite apt for me. Because of that, I hate arguments and debates. Which you wouldn't think so judging from how much I argued in here, but once I get going I start to feel like I need to respond. And nearly every time I have an argument or debate about one of those "passionate" subjects, I'm always stuck wondering if I went too far by the end of it.

 

Other people in here might think they're awesome, but I freely admit that debating is not a strong point of mine.

[Dieb]

Women don't want to harm you, they just don't like it be treated inferiorly because of their gender. We all know that still happens a lot, and more than with men. That can also happen. Do you know why? Because women are just as good as men at being stupid a**holes.

 

That, too, is equality.

 

I think this particular debate has now run its course, and we can hug it out to Mr. Marvin Gaye.

(Whose name is not him being in your face with some agenda. It's just his name.)

 

 

*screen fades to black & credits roll*

[raging_monkey]

Funny my comp is playoling this

[andy6915]

they just don't like it be treated inferiorly because of their gender.

Neither gender likes that happening, but it's much more acceptable to treat men and boys badly in western society than it is women. I don't see male genital mutilation being banned all over like the female equivalent is, for example.
 

We all know that still happens a lot, and more than with men.

That is highly debatable.

[Seraphim24]

I don't see how this applies here. It's not like we're discussing the greatest movies of all time and I argue that Avatar is that movie because it has the highest box-office of all time (discounting inflation). You said people can't agree on what makes a good female character, I argued that on some characters they actually do. Just because some of them are controversial (like Bayonetta) doesn't mean that all of them are. Any time a best female character list pops up you're pretty much guaranteed to see FemShep or Jade or Ellie show up. 

 

As for Life is Strange I personally don't mind the dialogue. I think the characters sound appropriately corny. 

 

Yeah.... no

 

http://www.denofgeek...game-characters

 

I'm not saying those are bad characters really but in the grand sense of gaming history that's a pretty limited perspective.

 

Simply speaking of Life is Strange (or Don'tnod generally) Nillin is probably more compelling than Jade or Ellie. Femshep is weird because it's a PC but she can be pretty entertaining especially if you play as a renegade.

[midnight tea]

Neither gender likes that happening, but it's much more acceptable to treat men and boys badly in western society than it is women. I don't see male genital mutilation being banned all over like the female equivalent is, for example.
 

That is highly debatable.

 

While I disagree with circumcision on general principle, be it male or female, can you really compare male genital mutilation it to a super-painful process that basically makes woman's life living hell? They feel near constant pain, they can never derive pleasure from sex, they're constantly at risk of severe infection and if they happen to become pregnant, giving birth to a child is beyond traumatic.

 

The consequences of both types of circumcisions are incomparable, to say the least. It's like comparing pulling some teeth to removing the whole jaw. Stopping female circumcision is simply higher on priority list, because it's not just unnecessary and have NO health benefits whatsoever - it's just entirely barbaric.

[Toasted Llama]

While I disagree with circumcision on general principle, be it male or female, can you really compare male genital mutilation it to a super-painful process that basically makes woman's life living hell? The feel near constant pain, they can never derive pleasure from sex, they're constantly at risk of severe infection and if they happen to become pregnant, giving birth to a child is beyond traumatic.

 

The consequences of both types of circumcisions are incomparable, to say the least. It's like comparing pulling some teeth to removing the whole jaw. Stopping female circumcision is simply higher on priority list, because it's not just unnecessary and have NO health benefits whatsoever - it's just entirely barbaric.

We're living with 7 billion people on this planet, I don't think we really need a priority list; there's plenty of people to improve multiple goals at the same time. I'd even argue it causes more harm than it does good, because it turns global/societal/cultural issues into a competition or it blows up statistics just to convince people to move it up higher in their priority list.

[SnakeCode]

If you ignore the fact that they posses two X chromosomes, you'd realize that anyone in the game who doesn't have money or power, regardless of their sex, is a poor peasant who gets crapped on by pretty much everyone. This has been a common thread throughout human history. The powerful prey on the powerless. This game adheres to the lore of The Witcher books and has not strayed terribly far throughout the series. Yes, it is based during times when there was blatant and overt sexism toward women, but equally so toward men. Men were expected to go to battle and die for causes that were not their own simply because penis; men were expendable and are still largely viewed this way in contemporary times.

As a man playing this game, does it bother me that most enemy NPC's are faceless men without back stories or personalities being sent to slaughter by my blade because penis? Should it? No. Methinks the Internet would have a huge problem with endless waves of women being put in my way though. Why? Maybe because we value female lives more than a man's? Just a thought. Now everyone just needs to calm the hell down with the SJW crap for the love of all that is sacred and holy.

 

This already happened. The last God of War game cut all fights against female characters and monsters after they were made aware that they were endorsing and glorifying violence against women. Despite male characters getting the exact same treatment. They also altered a trophy after complaints that it was "misogynist and condoning violence against women."  The trophy was called 'Bros Before Hos' and was awarded for killing one of the Furies. It was changed to 'Bros Before Foes'

 

Dat equality.

[midnight tea]

We're living with 7 billion people on this planet, I don't think we really need a priority list; there's plenty of people to improve multiple goals at the same time. I'd even argue it causes more harm than it does good, because it turns global/societal/cultural issues into a competition or it blows up statistics just to convince people to move it up higher in their priority list.

 

 

 

You're warping my point into something it's not about - and I'm not really sure why? Nobody here wants to make any sort of REAL "world suck" priority list, but whether you like it or not, female circumcision IS a bigger issue among two mentioned in my previous comment.

[Hiemoth]

This already happened. The last God of War game cut all fights against female characters and monsters after they were made aware that they were endorsing and glorifying violence against women. Despite male characters getting the exact same treatment. They also altered a trophy after complaints that it was "misogynist and condoning violence against women."  The trophy was called 'Bros Before Hos' and was awarded for killing one of the Furies. It was changed to 'Bros Before Foes'

 

Dat equality.

 

Wait, what? You are talking about the game where Kratos cracks Hera's neck with one hand?

 

Do you actually have some links or comments to back this wild claim or is this some internet myth flying around?

[9TailsFox]

This already happened. The last God of War game cut all fights against female characters and monsters after they were made aware that they were endorsing and glorifying violence against women. Despite male characters getting the exact same treatment. They also altered a trophy after complaints that it was "misogynist and condoning violence against women."  The trophy was called 'Bros Before Hos' and was awarded for killing one of the Furies. It was changed to 'Bros Before Foes'

 

Dat equality.

Really? What's next? All games kid friendly. Equality means everyone treated the same, not women treated good. Like everyone complain about witcher. In witcher world women not treated bad, everyone treated bad. Even if you king you under so much stress to keep your power you go insane.

 

Yes women so oppressed in games and man are treated with respect and like gods I blame patriarchy

http://img-9gag-fun....0rDNV_460sv.mp4

 

[Aren]

Indeed. The fact that the women in Dragon Age are just as flawed as the men is what makes them awesome.

 

Of course, the instant they display flaws, some people start calling them weak or bitchy. A perfect demonstration of how women (including the fictional ones) can't win.

I think most of the characters are pretty well written in the banter sections of their respective games. In personal conversation, they tend to be too heavily slanted towards 'This is the characters who embodies X issue' and end up feeling very one note after a while). In banter, they feel more natural and cover a wider range of topics than their usual soapbox issues.

This is an issue that i have with most of the DA characters,  including men

[leaguer of one]

This already happened. The last God of War game cut all fights against female characters and monsters after they were made aware that they were endorsing and glorifying violence against women. Despite male characters getting the exact same treatment. They also altered a trophy after complaints that it was "misogynist and condoning violence against women."  The trophy was called 'Bros Before Hos' and was awarded for killing one of the Furies. It was changed to 'Bros Before Foes'

 

Dat equality.

What game did you play?

 

And how is that glorify violence against woman? These are literally being out to kill the mc and rip him to bits. Added the person on the team who named the trophy was a woman.

[9TailsFox]

What game did you play?

 

And how is that glorify violence against woman? These are literally being out to kill the mc and rip him to bits. Added the person on the team who named the trophy was a woman.

This is funniest think. Bayonetta is created by women. People who complain about "SJ" in video games mostly. Don't even play games or even like them. And it gets funnier then person who don't even know what she talking about like fox new on mass effect

 

02:30

-Did you ever played mass effect.

-hahaha no.

[TheJiveDJ]

Equally? It's not really equal, when the only way of life open for woman was only marrying, bearing children and taking care of household.

Peasants or lower class men might not have as much choice on the matter, as, say, nobility, but they were still considered to be head of their household whose decision mattered of that over woman, in pretty much every regard. They could also choose career paths - they could be merchants, squires, artisans, priests, or scholars. They could educate themselves or make money - and for a very long time women simply had NO opportunity like that whatsoever.

 

Also... really, your're going to say that female life was "more valued", when women were no less victims of war than men were (that's not mentioning rampant rape that happened, usually on women that couldn't defend themselves, because they were left no means or knowledge how to do it).

 

In fact, they might have not died on the battlefield, but died frequently when giving yet another childbirth, out of complications or simple exhaustion (like my grand-grand-grandma, who - during 13 years of her marriage and was pregnant with yet another child almost at all times... until eventually her body just gave up).

Ah yes, the "women were treated with disdain pretty much at all times everywhere in the world until 1965" argument. Right. You're describing certain areas of the world during specific eras. There were many enlightened cultures in antiquity. In some provinces in ancient Greece for example, women shared status equal or greater than that of a mans. Yes there were powerful kings, but there were powerful queens as well. The real deciding factor regarding one's treatment really boiled down to their bloodline and their wealth.

Bottom line. The Witcher has its lore and its storyline. I think CDPR balanced things pretty well, showing the realities and brutality of the times, yet giving a lot of screen time to strong, independent powerful women who don't need no man *snaps fingers*. I thought a lot of the women in this game were just fantastic. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

[TheJiveDJ]

This already happened. The last God of War game cut all fights against female characters and monsters after they were made aware that they were endorsing and glorifying violence against women. Despite male characters getting the exact same treatment. They also altered a trophy after complaints that it was "misogynist and condoning violence against women."  The trophy was called 'Bros Before Hos' and was awarded for killing one of the Furies. It was changed to 'Bros Before Foes'

 

Dat equality.

*facepalm* Oh my sweet baby infant Jesus... I just looked up that story. Wow. Just wow. Case in point, I guess? I really did not want to be right about that. See? Fictional violence against men =  no problemo! Fictional violence against women = U WOT MATE?!?!?!?!?!

[In Exile]

In some provinces in ancient Greece for example, women shared status equal or greater than that of a mans. Yes there were powerful kings, but there were powerful queens as well. The real deciding factor regarding your treatment really boiled down to your bloodline and your wealth.

 

This is at odds with what I know of ancient Greece and it sounds fascinating (though my knowledge is limited to periods of Athens and Sparta so it is likely ignorance on my part that's the product). I ask solely for my own benefit/education: do you have a link and/or reference to what cultures I should read up on?

[midnight tea]

Ah yes, the "women were treated with disdain pretty much at all times everywhere in the world until 1965" argument. Right. You're describing certain areas of the world during specific eras. There were many enlightened cultures in antiquity. In some provinces in ancient Greece for example, women shared status equal or greater than that of a mans. Yes there were powerful kings, but there were powerful queens as well. The real deciding factor regarding your treatment really boiled down to your bloodline and your wealth.

Bottom line. The Witcher has its lore and its storyline. I think CDPR balanced things pretty well, showing the realities and brutality of the times, yet giving a lot of screen time to strong, independent powerful women who don't need no man *snaps fingers*. I thought a lot of the women in this game were just fantastic. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

 

 

.... If you have to go as far as ancient Greece to find examples of some women treated fairly well then I think the inevitable conclusion that - overall - women had it preeeeetty bad in Western cultural circle and endured being treated predominantly as property of men for a preeeeetty long time. Also - why do you mention some provinces of Greece, while ignoring the fact that in considerable number Greek city-states throughout history women couldn't even walk anywhere without male escort and were treated predominantly as baby-popping machines? The only women who basically rose above that pitiful status were hetairai, and there were not that many of them.

 

Also - I don't think I've ever shared my opinion on Witcher to you or said that I didn't like female characters or anything of the sort, so don't make hasty assumptions about it.

[BabyPuncher]

If you ignore the fact that they posses two X chromosomes, you'd realize that anyone in the game who doesn't have money or power, regardless of their sex, is a poor peasant who gets crapped on by pretty much everyone. This has been a common thread throughout human history. The powerful prey on the powerless. This game adheres to the lore of The Witcher books and has not strayed terribly far throughout the series. Yes, it is based during times when there was blatant and overt sexism toward women, but equally so toward men. Men were expected to go to battle and die for causes that were not their own simply because penis; men were expendable and are still largely viewed this way in contemporary times.

As a man playing this game, does it bother me that most enemy NPC's are faceless men without back stories or personalities being sent to slaughter by my blade because penis? Should it? No. Methinks the Internet would have a huge problem with endless waves of women being put in my way though. Why? Maybe because we value female lives more than a man's? Just a thought. Now everyone just needs to calm the hell down with the SJW crap for the love of all that is sacred and holy.

 

This is coming across as rather whiny...

 

When you make these criticisms, are you criticizing these doubling standards because they demonstrate hypocrisy, or because double standards themselves are bad?

 

[TheJiveDJ]

This is at odds with what I know of ancient Greece and it sounds fascinating (though my knowledge is limited to periods of Athens and Sparta so it is likely ignorance on my part that's the product). I ask solely for my own benefit/education: do you have a link and/or reference to what cultures I should read up on?

The wiki is a great place to start and it has many citations.

 

https://en.wikipedia...Women_in_Greece

 

A quote:

 

The status of women in ancient Greece varied from city state to city state. Records exist of women in ancient Delphi, Gortyn, Thessaly, Megara and Sparta owning land, the most prestigious form of private property at the time.^[6]

 

[TheJiveDJ]

.... If you have to go as far as ancient Greece to find examples of some women treated fairly well then I think the inevitable conclusion that - overall - women had it preeeeetty bad in Western cultural circle and endured being treated predominantly as property of men for a preeeeetty long time. Also - why do you mention some provinces of Greece, while ignoring the fact that in considerable number Greek city-states throughout history women couldn't even walk anywhere without male escort and were treated predominantly as baby-popping machines? The only women who basically rose above that pitiful status were hetairai, and there were not that many of them.

 

Also - I don't think I've ever shared my opinion on Witcher to you or said that I didn't like female characters or anything of the sort, so don't make hasty assumptions about it.

LoL I don't have time to give you a history lesson. Ancient Greece was the easiest thing I could think of at the time. Feel free to use those empowered fingers of yours. The info is out there.

 

Edit: Regardless of "how far back" I had to go is irrelevant. The claim was that women have been oppressed pretty much at all times. That claim is demonstrably false. Funny how that evidence thing works.

 

Edit 2: Excuse me, I may have confused you with someone else. Got multiple threads going. Disregard that comment regarding your preference on the Witcher's story then.

[TheJiveDJ]

This is coming across as rather whiny...

 

When you make these criticisms, are you criticizing these doubling standards because they demonstrate hypocrisy, or because double standards themselves are bad?

Whiny? You gonna make a point or just sit there making ad hominem attacks?