561 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

 

I shouldn't be surprise of BSN anymore, from the portrayal of women in games, mostly about

DA games,to circumcision.....bah

 

 

That was kind of my point, but it starts with the "portrayal of women in games" it's nominally about games true but why not just be about games?

Women do, legally speaking. Well, okay... It's not strictly legal for a woman, but the crime they commit isn't considered a rape crime.

 

Could the same not be said of women? Why is it only men who have any actual responsibility? Women have none when it comes to children, the state and child support will bail them out if they can't afford having a child they chose to have despite knowing they couldn't financially handle it. Men, you better be responsible and never ever have sex if you don't want to be in financial servitude for decades. Women? Ah, don't worry about it since we give you multiple outs and will help pay for the child one way or another if you decide to have the kid anyway. Equality!

 

I guess you missed earlier when I mentioned a story of a 13 year old boy who was raped by a woman being forced to pay his rapist child support. Women aren't allowed to rape men? That women full on benefited from it.

 

http://www.usatoday....pport/14953965/

 

http://law.justia.co...4th/50/842.html

 

http://www.businessi...-support-2014-9

 

And look at that, multiple cases... So don't try to claim it's just some random isolated incident.

 

 

By the way, how badly men get screwed by marriage is why men are refusing to marry more and more. Us men are starting to get that marriage is a raw deal that is most likely to end with you utterly screwed, especially since women are the ones who file for divorce more than men to begin with. The key isn't divorcing, it's not signing onto such a bad deal to start with.

 

There are freak incidents in the justice system all the time, involving just about everyone, they involve old people, young people, males, females whatever, the point of a video game though again isn't to like shed light or fixate on this particular tragedy or that, it's just designed to make a grand kind of thing that everyone can enjoy and understand.

 

It's certainly not a mechanism for "correction" or something, if men treat women badly that is what it is, but the solution to that isn't to pour extra resources or attention into how women are portrayed, because then you leave men behind. The reverse is also true.

 

This "correction" is not a correction at all, it's just an excuse to continue the cycle of hatred.

 

DA:I for example failed utterly in at least one respect in the sense that it was (partially) designed with animus towards a particular kind of "straight male gamer" in mind, they should of just made what mattered to them most. If they failed to understand where those straight male gamers were coming from they should of sought means to better understand them.

 

The goal is to portray both (everything) as well as you can, no favoritism should be shown towards either gender once you make the game itself.

[Ieldra]

The goal is to portray both (everything) as well as you can, no favoritism should be shown towards either gender once you make the game itself.

That is true with regard to player characters, but not necessarily for the world. I think that DAI's portrayal of Thedas as a world where certain kinds of gender imbalance simply don't exist is problematic. Not because I want to justify them or think they shouldn't, or couldn't, be overcome, but because I think they're based at least in part on biology and wouldn't naturally be overcome by any culture without a conscious effort that would be a part of that culture's history. It is part of the DA team's responsibility to make their world appear plausible, and they failed to realize that such a drastic break from real-world reality, while desirable for various reasons, needs a better explanation, out-of-world, than "things simply are that way."

 

It doesn't help that things weren't that way in the earlier games. They might have gotten away with "things just are that way" when they first made the world, but now they have to fight against the weight of - especially - DAO.

 

As for the above debate about biology, I am continuously astonished by people's willingness to treat biology as irrelevant. Quite a bit of our "stone age heritage" has very undesirable effects - not surprisingly, since survival isn't exactly a predictor for "fair" - but ignoring that fact helps nobody. In fact, I consider it a liability. We should know what we need to overcome to make a better world, if that is our desire. 

[Ridwan]

Been a while since I lurked in the dragon age section of bsn. Forgot how tumblresque it is, lol.

[The Elder King]

That is true with regard to player characters, but not necessarily for the world. I think that DAI's portrayal of Thedas as a world where certain kinds of gender imbalance simply don't exist is problematic. Not because I want to justify them or think they shouldn't, or couldn't, be overcome, but because I think they're based at least in part on biology and wouldn't naturally be overcome by any culture without a conscious effort that would be a part of that culture's history. It is part of the DA team's responsibility to make their world appear plausible, and they failed to realize that such a drastic break from real-world reality, while desirable for various reasons, needs a better explanation, out-of-world, than "things simply are that way."
 
It doesn't help that things weren't that way in the earlier games. They might have gotten away with "things just are that way" when they first made the world, but now they have to fight against the weight of - especially - DAO.
 
As for the above debate about biology, I am continuously astonished by people's willingness to treat biology as irrelevant. Quite a bit of our "stone age heritage" has very undesirable effects - not surprisingly, since survival isn't exactly a predictor for "fair" - but ignoring that fact helps nobody. In fact, I consider it a liability. We should know what we need to overcome to make a better world, if that is our desire.

What type of gender inbalance was present in DAO that Bioware took away in following games?

[Dieb]

BioWare is not required to portray a plausible world, if that is your definition of one. Nobody dismisses mythological tales of amazonian or matriachal societies as lesser entertainment because they don't seem plausible. If you wish to play a game in a "fantasy" world which serves as hyperbole or subtle re-coloring of the real world, then you will find some, naturally.

 

But Thedas remains Thedas. For all problems the people have there, sexism as a lesser one. It's been defined as such.

 

Also please remember that all -sorry- selfish claims to be properly entertained by realistic portayal of misery is carried out on the backs of people wishing to be represented. I'm not saying it shouldn't ever, but we're having the discussion the wrong way round. We create these things to entertain everybody first, and then all else.

[midnight tea]

Aaaannnnd if you read just below that paragraph you'll get to brush up on Spartan women.

 

"Brush up" is a good word to describe it, considering that this is barely an article - and even that bare-bones article makes it pretty clear that Sparta was an exception from the rule, and was a place where, I quote: "(women) enjoyed a status, power, and respect that was unknown in the rest of the classical world". 

[9TailsFox]

"Brush up" is a good word to describe it, considering that this is barely an article - and even that bare-bones article makes it pretty clear that Sparta was an exception from the rule, and was a place where, I quote: "(women) enjoyed a status, power, and respect that was unknown in the rest of the classical world". 

[midnight tea]

 

.... Implying that value of women lies inherently in giving birth to "real men", huh?

Also - movie 300 is hardly known for its historical accuracy, I'd like to point out.

[Toasted Llama]

You're warping my point into something it's not about - and I'm not really sure why? Nobody here wants to make any sort of REAL "world suck" priority list, but whether you like it or not, female circumcision IS a bigger issue among two mentioned in my previous comment.

It's been a couple of pages by now but I want to get back at this:

I'm not warping your point into something it's not about: It doesn't matter if it's a bigger issue, male genital mutilation is also wrong and shouldn't be excused because someone else is suffering more. We've got plenty of people living on this planet to solve both at the same time; I'd argue it's even easier to both at the same time than just one.

[midnight tea]

 

That is true with regard to player characters, but not necessarily for the world. I think that DAI's portrayal of Thedas as a world where certain kinds of gender imbalance simply don't exist is problematic. Not because I want to justify them or think they shouldn't, or couldn't, be overcome, but because I think they're based at least in part on biology and wouldn't naturally be overcome by any culture without a conscious effort that would be a part of that culture's history. It is part of the DA team's responsibility to make their world appear plausible, and they failed to realize that such a drastic break from real-world reality, while desirable for various reasons, needs a better explanation, out-of-world, than "things simply are that way."

 

And it IS part of its history - I mean, should I even mention the existence of the Chantry? Considering how profound was the influence of Catholic Church (and quite a few other Christian denominations) on our culture and acceptance of rigid gender roles, you really think female-governed Church wouldn't have significant influence on gender roles in Thedas???
 

Also - I'm not really sure you can play "biology card" here. Females might not be as strong as men on general principle, but that doesn't mean that trained female would only be a cannon fodder on the battlefield, even in a world which has no magic in it. Plus, none of the female soldiers or commanders we've seen lived their life being closed in home and in near constant cycle of pregnancy (after reaching eligible age for marriage/childbearing) - in fact, it's pretty seriously implied that life as warrior comes at expense of having one. Cassandra, for example, is hardly a warrior with 10 kids running around her - plus, she is implied to be particularly strong, she trained since childhood and has acquired magical abilities that enhance her fighting prowess.

 

Even in our world female warriors existed throughout history - and while they were not that many of them, they proved their prowess on battlefield if given a chance. One of the more well known female military units were Dahomey Amazons (also called Mino) from African Kingdom of Dahomey. Their unit lasted till XIX century, disbanded after country fell under the rule of France.

Those were thousands of women who were rigorously trained for physical combat since young age and were apparently quite formidable, noted to be better in effectiveness and bravery than their male counterparts.

 

So no, the biology card doesn't really apply.

[Torgette]

That is true with regard to player characters, but not necessarily for the world. I think that DAI's portrayal of Thedas as a world where certain kinds of gender imbalance simply don't exist is problematic. Not because I want to justify them or think they shouldn't, or couldn't, be overcome, but because I think they're based at least in part on biology and wouldn't naturally be overcome by any culture without a conscious effort that would be a part of that culture's history. It is part of the DA team's responsibility to make their world appear plausible, and they failed to realize that such a drastic break from real-world reality, while desirable for various reasons, needs a better explanation, out-of-world, than "things simply are that way."

 

It doesn't help that things weren't that way in the earlier games. They might have gotten away with "things just are that way" when they first made the world, but now they have to fight against the weight of - especially - DAO.

 

As for the above debate about biology, I am continuously astonished by people's willingness to treat biology as irrelevant. Quite a bit of our "stone age heritage" has very undesirable effects - not surprisingly, since survival isn't exactly a predictor for "fair" - but ignoring that fact helps nobody. In fact, I consider it a liability. We should know what we need to overcome to make a better world, if that is our desire. 

 

I guess to be fair, if DA was remotely like the real world then all the mages would've been burned at the stake as soon as they tried to use magic of any kind. Mages would be more like they are in TW3 - in hiding.

[midnight tea]

It's been a couple of pages by now but I want to get back at this:

I'm not warping your point into something it's not about: It doesn't matter if it's a bigger issue, male genital mutilation is also wrong and shouldn't be excused because someone else is suffering more. We've got plenty of people living on this planet to solve both at the same time; I'd argue it's even easier to both at the same time than just one.

 

You're warping my point AGAIN - I'm not excusing it, in fact I said that I'm no fan of either. There's no point comparing the two though in terms of severity of impact on someone's health and life quality, that's all I'm saying. It has nothing to down with "excusing " the other practice - merely putting things in perspective.

[KaiserShep]

I guess to be fair, if DA was remotely like the real world then all the mages would've been burned at the stake as soon as they tried to use magic of any kind. Mages would be more like they are in TW3 - in hiding.

Very probably. In a world where lyrium exists, Templars would be a thing, but they wouldn't be so much a police force as they'd be roving death squads that hunt down anything remotely magical. 

[Aren]

.... Implying that value of women lies inherently in giving birth to "real men", huh?

Also - movie 300 is hardly known for its historical accuracy, I'd like to point out.

It was just a joke i guess,there is no need to take things always so seriously......

[midnight tea]

Very probably. In a world where lyrium exists, Templars would be a thing, but they wouldn't be so much a police force as they'd be roving death squads that hunt down anything remotely magical. 

 

Only that part is pretty much done in Thedas - mages have been pacified a those that exist are either hunted down and killed or put in isolated locations and heavily guarded.

[Sah291]

This discussion about gritty realism and writing to reflect how things actually are, versus writing for how we think things ought to be, reminds of that banter between Solas and Varric about tricksters in dwarven literature.

Personally, I like both styles. Science fiction is a highly speculative genre, often involving utopian (or dystopian) themes, about how things could be..and I'm a huge fan of scifi and fantasy.

DA:I for example failed utterly in at least one respect in the sense that it was (partially) designed with animus towards a particular kind of "straight male gamer" in mind, they should of just made what mattered to them most. If they failed to understand where those straight male gamers were coming from they should of sought means to better understand them.

I'm not sure I would go that far, but to some extent I do notice a general tendency in the series to expect a slightly more... shall, I say, "conservative" player? I think Hawke was portrayed as slightly more conservative, for example. Some of the dialogue options you got with the personality tones in DA2 often seemed like 3 major flavors of conservative to me. Though, I was looking at it through my own cultural lens, and I'm aware "conservative" is a subjective label and means different things to different people/cultures. I'm not Canadian, so I could be misinterpreting the writers intentions.

What type of gender inbalance was present in DAO that Bioware took away in following games?

Well, there hasn't been just one, to be honest. It varies. But I think there is a hint of female bias within the (southern) Chantry. The White Divine can only be female, for instance. While in Tevinter they had the opposite with a male Divine and hinted towards a more male dominated religious power structure there. And I'm not sure they took these themes away, exactly, it's just not something they chose to focus on much in DAI. Although, the only 3 candidates for Divine are all female. So there's that.

I thought the idea they were going for was to have different nations in Thedas reflect different political and cultural dynamics. DAI doesn't necessarily negate that, since the Inquisition is supposed to be more politically independent, and the advisers/companions all come from diverse backgrounds. So if there is any sort of organization in Thedas with the potential to be very cross cultural and inclusive, it's probably the Inquisition.

[KaiserShep]

Only that part is pretty much done in Thedas - mages have been pacified a those that exist are either hunted down and killed or put in isolated locations and heavily guarded.

What I mean to say is that Circles might not be a thing remotely like they are in these games. If magic existed in reality in a time frame similar to this, I imagine it would be like the Guantanamo Circle. 

[midnight tea]

What I mean to say is that Circles might not be a thing remotely like they are in these games. If magic existed in reality in a time frame similar to this, I imagine it would be like the Guantanamo Circle. 

 

 

Probably even worse, considering that people were willing to invent magical scapegoats and subsequently punishing them for all imagined crimes and slights.

[Toasted Llama]

You're warping my point AGAIN - I'm not excusing it, in fact I said that I'm no fan of either. There's no point comparing the two though in terms of severity of impact on someone's health and life quality, that's all I'm saying. It has nothing to down with "excusing " the other practice - merely putting things in perspective.

 

Why is it so hard to understand that this "perspective" you're trying to put out here is a harmful one and shouldn't matter at all. Genital mutilation, regardless of severity and regardless of gender, could've been abolished entirely with one simple law that prohibits genital mutilation for everyone, instead several countries choose to favour women's rights to their genitals over men's, on the basis of "female genital mutilitation is worse"; something that shouldn't matter and ignores the suffering of one gender entirely.

[Heimdall]

Probably even worse, considering that people were willing to invent magical scapegoats and subsequently punishing them for all imagined crimes and slights.

It was more complicated than that.

And really the whole witch hunt thing was a very late Middle Ages and early renaissance period. For much of the medieval period, the church taught that witchcraft was superstitious nonsense and its practitioners delusional.

Aside from that, if magic were real, demonstratable, and useful to the rulers, then I doubt mages would be treated as "witches" were.

[midnight tea]

It was more complicated than that.

And really the whole witch hunt thing was a very late Middle Ages and early renaissance period. For much of the medieval period, the church taught that witchcraft was superstitious nonsense and its practitioners delusional.

 

Oh, the fact that it was more complicated than what I managed to summarize in one sentence is without question Still, Middle Ages or no, it doesn't change the fact that the Church eventually changed its stance - and the pyres burned in some parts of Europe even as late as 17/18th century.

 

Plus, not just "witches" were persecuted. Aside from heretics, among burned or persecuted were scientists/scholars and people who argued established status quo as well. Index Librorum Prohibitorum and the fate of Giorano Bruno is the first thing that comes to my mind.

 

 

 

Aside from that, if magic were real, demonstratable, and useful to the rulers, then I doubt mages would be treated as "witches" were.

 

Well, as long as they helped the crown I guess...

[midnight tea]

Why is it so hard to understand that this "perspective" you're trying to put out here is a harmful one and shouldn't matter at all. Genital mutilation, regardless of severity and regardless of gender, could've been abolished entirely with one simple law that prohibits genital mutilation for everyone, instead several countries choose to favour women's rights to their genitals over men's, on the basis of "female genital mutilitation is worse"; something that shouldn't matter and ignores the suffering of one gender entirely.

 

Why is it so hard to understand that I condone neither? I've pointed it out TWICE already. And if both can be dealt with in one clean swoop than I'm all for it - but we both know that male circumcision and female circumcision WON'T be dealt with one law, simply because neither exist in just one country. Different laws, different cultural context, different ways we have to address it at a different pace.

[9TailsFox]

It was just a joke i guess,there is no need to take things always so seriously......

Well everyone is offended by something. So every joke will offend someone.If posible  I just ignore people like it.

[9TailsFox]

Why is it so hard to understand that I condone neither? I've pointed it out TWICE already. And if both can be dealt with in one clean swoop than I'm all for it - but we both know that male circumcision and female circumcision WON'T be dealt with one law, simply because neither exist in just one country. Different laws, different cultural context, different ways we have to address it at a different pace.

I am sorry do we seriously need law who says cutting penis is wrong? I think it is you know conman sense. Seriously there this bs happening.