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[midnight tea]

What you said reminded me of this:

 

 

Starts at 3:00

 

Great speech. Much more poignant than my fumbling attempt at describing the issue

[Ariella]

Great speech. Much more poignant than my fumbling attempt at describing the issue

You did just fine.

At the end of the day, it does come down to why is this even a issue? Why is the idea of a world where women have equality unrealistic or supposedly utopian? Last I checked one of humanity's greatest gifts was to find new ways to screw up on incredible levels thus causing conflict. As long as there are people there's always going to be something we're going to want to hit each other with sticks about.

[midnight tea]

You did just fine.

At the end of the day, it does come down to why is this even a issue? Why is the idea of a world where women have equality unrealistic or supposedly utopian? Last I checked one of humanity's greatest gifts was to find new ways to screw up on incredible levels thus causing conflict. As long as there are people there's always going to be something we're going to want to hit each other with sticks about.

 

I think one of the possible reasons this argument is used is that people don't necessarily think it through - or at least I HOPE that's the case, because the only other reason I can think of is that there are quite a few people who WANT equality among genders or races to remain an unrealistic utopia *shudders*

 

And yeah, I've mentioned this at one point too - why can't stories in which misogyny or race aren't as prominent issues make a point about how people can still find ways to divide themselves?

 

Many people/societies in Thedas are certainly guilty of that - it's bizarre to call their society "utopian" just because they lack rampant misogyny or open discrimination of people of different skin color.

 

I mean... doesn't it also speak of something dangerous about us? Like, people who think that if we get rid of more overt forms of sexism or racism may start to think that the job's done - "utopia's here, please stop your whining"? In fact - isn't it like that NOW, at least to a point? How many people did we already see argue that women or PoC or LGBT members should stop their whining, since everybody is already equal, pretty much in every respect???

[5ubzer0]

As a feminist and someone who worked in family violence I've had a lot of fun reading this thread. I can't decide what I liked best: the KKK references, the debate about the Baron quest and the difficult question whether cheating excuses rape/murder, or the part about female genital mutilation? I am not sure how and why some of this wasn't moderated, but hey, apparently anything goes.

 

In an attempt to get back on topic, today I've looked for a new game to play. Since I learned here that patriarchy is dead (yay!) and equality achieved, it's fascinating that I have such a hard time finding a game with a female protagonist. I can buy a new one with a white, heterosexual, male spy/soldier/assassin type who saves the world probably every week of the year, yet there are next to none with female leads. Why is that?

 

Aside from Bioware and Bethesda very few game studios seem to bother with gender choice. It sucks. Recently, I've started to play a lot of choose your own adventure text games online solely because they allow me to create a main character with gender/sexual orientation/ethnicity of my choosing. It's refreshing to play as a character that I actually feel represented by.

 

 

 

 

[Guitar-Hero]

As a feminist and someone who worked in family violence I've had a lot of fun reading this thread. I can't decide what I liked best: the KKK references, the debate about the Baron quest and the difficult question whether cheating excuses rape/murder, or the part about female genital mutilation? I am not sure how and why some of this wasn't moderated, but hey, apparently anything goes.

 

In an attempt to get back on topic, today I've looked for a new game to play. Since I learned here that patriarchy is dead (yay!) and equality achieved, it's fascinating that I have such a hard time finding a game with a female protagonist. I can buy a new one with a white, heterosexual, male spy/soldier/assassin type who saves the world probably every week of the year, yet there are next to none with female leads. Why is that?

 

Aside from Bioware and Bethesda very few game studios seem to bother with gender choice. It sucks. Recently, I've started to play a lot of choose your own adventure text games online solely because they allow me to create a main character with gender/sexual orientation/ethnicity of my choosing. It's refreshing to play as a character that I actually feel represented by.

You make my teeth ache

[midnight tea]

You make my teeth ache

 

What an excellent and valid point! I am floored by your impeccable reasoning!

[Guitar-Hero]

What an excellent and valid point! I am floored by your impeccable reasoning!

Thank you, i am just trying my hardest.

[5ubzer0]

You make my teeth ache

 

Good.

[midnight tea]

The mods in this forum are very.. Selective.

As for your post. As a female I prefer to play as one, however if a game looks interesting and have to play a dude.. I will. I'm not gonna let political beliefs restrict me from having some fun.

While the past few years we have seen more games come out with female protagonists.. It is still predominantly dudes.

In TW3's case -- just because you have to play a male a majority of the game it doesn't mean that it's misogynist. There were many situations in the game where you could choose to favour the female over the male. There were also a lot of strong female characters. Yennefer, for instance, pretty much masters Geralt like one would master a dog.

 

I can't speak for 5ubzer0, but the impression I got was that she was making a point about disproportion in numbers between specific types of protagonists to, say, female protagonists.

 

I'm also not sure anybody mentioned that playing male protagonists means that the game is inherently misogynist - at least I don't make such point, as I don't believe such is the case. The game can be fair in portrayal of everyone (fixed PC or no), it just matters how well it does the work of portraying everyone or what context is being used.

 

However - while I don't claim that TW3 is sexist, I'd like to point out that "choosing female over male" can't be really used as indicator of game's fairness towards gender... I mean, in a game that chooses to treat people equally the deeds of the people would be more important than who they are (though again... context matters).

 

A single, or perhaps even a number, of strong female characters is a better indicator (and Yen's pretty great and has been so since books), though a strong woman wrapping a male around her little finger.... welllllll, it's not like that didn't happen in fiction that - overall - wasn't that fair for either women or other groups of people.

[Legion of 1337]

As a feminist and someone who worked in family violence I've had a lot of fun reading this thread. I can't decide what I liked best: the KKK references, the debate about the Baron quest and the difficult question whether cheating excuses rape/murder, or the part about female genital mutilation? I am not sure how and why some of this wasn't moderated, but hey, apparently anything goes.

 

In an attempt to get back on topic, today I've looked for a new game to play. Since I learned here that patriarchy is dead (yay!) and equality achieved, it's fascinating that I have such a hard time finding a game with a female protagonist. I can buy a new one with a white, heterosexual, male spy/soldier/assassin type who saves the world probably every week of the year, yet there are next to none with female leads. Why is that?

 

Aside from Bioware and Bethesda very few game studios seem to bother with gender choice. It sucks. Recently, I've started to play a lot of choose your own adventure text games online solely because they allow me to create a main character with gender/sexual orientation/ethnicity of my choosing. It's refreshing to play as a character that I actually feel represented by.

So, few female protagonists = patriarchy exists? You have no idea how marketing works do you.

[midnight tea]

So, few female protagonists = patriarchy exists? You have no idea how marketing works do you.

 

Do you?

Marketing responds to changes in views and wants of the society - anyone who actually studied marketing to any extent knows that. This is exactly why we see somewhat more females, PoC or LGBT members NOW in advertisements alone than we did a few years back. The disproportion is still large, but the gap in representation is - slowly and hopefully surely - closing as society becomes more inclusive and open-minded. And marketing will change together with it.

[midnight tea]

Oh nobody said it here. Well.. I think somebody did earlier in the thread, or at least implied as much but had nothing to do with with the user I was replying to. I'm just sick of people making assumptions about The Witcher when they clearly haven't played it, and using the game as an example to make the point that even though you play as a male protagonist there are still a few feminist themes in the game, but what makes it special is it gives people a choice. E.g you can help make woman queen, but you have a choice between her and her brother. In another case you have two people working as blacksmiths -- one is a male dwarf who takes the credit for the work but in truth is actually useless while his colleague, a female human, is the talented one and makes the weapons.. You have the option of helping her prove that she's the one with the skill.

Fair enough they are basing the assumption off of the first game in the series but 3 is much different just as all the DA games are different..

 

If they make assumptions about Witcher without playing it (or at least getting themselves informed about actual content in the game) then it's not cool.

 

Just to clarify - I myself play the game (plan on firing it for a few hours after I'm done responding ) and have known the series loooong before anyone even thought about making Witcher games.

[midnight tea]

On my experience it's always just wise to experience it for yourself. Journalists and people on Tumblr tend to exaggerate their opinions and read into things that aren't actually there. For instance, despite how toned down DAI was in regard to dark themes there were still a lot of complaints. Of course that all depends on one's sensitivity but honestly I don't think people should play games targeted for adults if that's the case.

I got into the books after I heard about and played the first Witcher. While the first three books to me were average I'm currently reading Baptism of Fire and it's my favourite in the series so far, good stuff. Eager for the next book.

 

That's true, but people can always choose watching, say, Lets Plays over playing or reading summaries on the Internet.

 

As for books... it was my first "serious" fantasy series I mean, back in the day, it was one of few easily available serious fantasy titles in Poland to begin with. I have to refresh the series at some point and see how much it changed for me since last reading it (in entirety), but I wonder how much translation impacts the story or its reception.

 

There's a lot of humor or situations in books (and some in games as well) that just doesn't translate well to any language, as it makes sense only in context of local culture - like, say, a princess who drowned herself in river Duppa ('dupa' means 'ass' in Polish) because nobody wanted her was a jab at Polish legend about princess Wanda who drowned herself in a river, 'cause she didn't want to marry a German prince.... not really funny if I say it so straightforwardly, but written in a book in a way that made me laugh my face off (plus... a river called "Ass" is something that actually exists on Continent and nobody who knows Polish is aware of it? Oh, Sapek, you troll )

[Legion of 1337]

Do you?

Marketing responds to changes in views and wants of the society - anyone who actually studied marketing to any extent knows that. This is exactly why we see somewhat more females, PoC or LGBT members NOW in advertisements alone than we did a few years back. The disproportion is still large, but the gap in representation is - slowly and hopefully surely - closing as society becomes more inclusive and open-minded. And marketing will change together with it.

That inclusive feeling you get when your particular physical/mental identity is represented in a game (ie the protagonist is female)? That exact feeling is the reason so many protagonists are male. Most people who play AAA games that actually have stories (or try to) are male; gamers are split 50/50, but men are more likely to play AAA games. That's why I said it was marketing: they're trying to make the player character even more relatable to their game's largest demographic (it's really just a feel-good thing though - even if the protagonist is a woman, men will still be the majority consumers if it's a male-oriented genre, like an action game (Bayonetta comes to mind). Companies aren't stupid - they aren't "closed minded", they're audience pandering. Bioware for example, as you probably know, does this all the time.

[9TailsFox]

The mods in this forum are very.. Selective.

As for your post. As a female I prefer to play as one, however if a game looks interesting and have to play a dude.. I will. I'm not gonna let political beliefs restrict me from having some fun.

While the past few years we have seen more games come out with female protagonists.. It is still predominantly dudes.

In TW3's case -- just because you have to play a male a majority of the game it doesn't mean that it's misogynist. There were many situations in the game where you could choose to favour the female over the male. There were also a lot of strong female characters. Yennefer, for instance, pretty much masters Geralt like one would master a dog.

Geralt is just sex toy for the Lodge of Sorceresses.  Everyone hate Lodge of Sorceresses for reason. And Geralt is wery sexist he will save female just because she is female, sometimes even if she is guilty. And Yennefer just manipulative bit...

[Rocknife]

Gotta learn Polish! River Ass There was no "River Ass" in French translation. Back when I first wanted to buy Witcher books, I couldn't find any English translations but French translations are not that different I suppose, when it comes to names like that. I also heard some names are different in Polish version, like Vesemir's name. I suddenly find myself wanting to learn Polish    Doesn't hurt to add another weapon to the arsenal, I'll learn Polish as soon as I can. Witcher is one of the best fantasy series for me. Witcher, LOTR and GoT are my favorite three.

 

In Witcher, there is nudity and sex but not sexism. At first, everyone respected Sorceresses and Mages and people bowed down before them when they were walking on the streets. Then they have fallen from power and witch hunts started. Once every sorceress and mage was either burned at stakes or fled the city, peopel started burning non-humans at the stakes. In Witcher, women are not oppressed, elves are not oppressed.In Witcher, weak are oppressed, regardless of their genders or race. Humans invaded the homes of Aen Seidhe Elves and forced them to hide and live in forests. Aen Elle Elves invaded both Humans' and Aen Seidhe's realm, burnt their cities and villages, kidnapped their people. So it's never about gender or race in Witcher. It's all about power. Even though Geralt says this as a comment to courtly politics of Tameria, these words describe it best "Power, sex. Sex, power. It all comes down to one thing, f***ing others". That was always like this in every Witcher game. The first, the second and the third.

 

In Dragon Age, however, it is different. Writers' opinion about it changes with each new game, apparently. In DAO, there were terrible examples of dark fantasies, sexism and homophobia while DAI was like a disney movie comparing to DAO. Game reviews and critics must have affected developers and writers. In DAO, Morrigan was just a sex toy that could also be used as a tool of survival. A woman who literally begs for and desparately "needs" any tainted "man" to impregnate her... sexism itself lies in that scene's roots and writers were quite proud of that scene, let alone being disturbed by it. You know, they liked that scene so much that they had someone draw a comic about it. I don't find sex and nudity offensive or disturbing and I don't understand who do but that was kinda disturbing.

[zestalyn]

Mainstream AAA titles? Well there are only a handful of those, period, so you don't get much diversity one way or another.

 

Well now, isn't that quite a problem. Quantity isn't the issue - they are the face of mainstream gaming, for they bring in the big bucks.

It's the same bullsh*t irony that Hollywood is riddled with- the most powerful film industry ever coming from the most diverse country in the world mostly tells the stories of a very very tiny percentage of the world, and people of color today still have to fight against racist stereotyping/whitewashing/all that fun stuff, and of course sexism is still an issue, which all of the most successful actresses of our time have confirmed countless times.

Mainstream = lack of diversity/primitive principles is an outdated business model for a highly globalized world.

I haven't heard of most of the games you mentioned, except for Final Fantasy, which I never played because I only could ever afford playing on my PC (I was interested in the one with Lightning, but of course the PC port got terrible reviews) As far as the whole general gamer population goes, I don't think being a sole PC player makes me that ridiculous of an outlier. And unfortunately, my only impression of MGS is how they so tastefully have women somehow engage in combat with their bits hanging out, so screw that. Makes me feel like I'm supposed to be a 13 year old boy to play the game.

Just as your average movie goer may only be exposed to Hollywood blockbusters and such, I'm a pretty average/below average game consumer, so... what does that leave me exposed to? These days our culture is heavily defined by pop culture, which is why making mainstream media more progressive has become increasingly important.

I completely disagree with your comment about Leliana and Josie "being in the kitchen". How can that even be a thing to say about them when you sit at the highest offices of the Inquisition? They are in power. Not in the kitchen (especially not Leliana jesus, I don't think those daggers are used for carrot dicing) Gender equality isn't about teaching women how to shoot guns...

So yes, as your average/below average PC gamer, DA:I stands out to me when it comes to dynamic representations of women. As we've seen, there are multiple gaming articles commenting on the same thing regarding DA:I, so I'm not the only one who considers the game a relative outlier.

[Panda]

As a feminist and someone who worked in family violence I've had a lot of fun reading this thread. I can't decide what I liked best: the KKK references, the debate about the Baron quest and the difficult question whether cheating excuses rape/murder, or the part about female genital mutilation? I am not sure how and why some of this wasn't moderated, but hey, apparently anything goes.

 

In an attempt to get back on topic, today I've looked for a new game to play. Since I learned here that patriarchy is dead (yay!) and equality achieved, it's fascinating that I have such a hard time finding a game with a female protagonist. I can buy a new one with a white, heterosexual, male spy/soldier/assassin type who saves the world probably every week of the year, yet there are next to none with female leads. Why is that?

 

Aside from Bioware and Bethesda very few game studios seem to bother with gender choice. It sucks. Recently, I've started to play a lot of choose your own adventure text games online solely because they allow me to create a main character with gender/sexual orientation/ethnicity of my choosing. It's refreshing to play as a character that I actually feel represented by.

 

Actually in E3 there was quite many games with female protagonist in the lead or at least you could choose which gender you play. Well, I haven't counted numbers, but since I'm not used to seeing many female protagonists I was suprised ^^ Mirror's Edge, Tomb Raider, Recore, Horizon, Dishonored and even Assassin Creed (+ others I can't remember now). I guess Ubisoft finally has learned how to animate women

 

So it at least seems that trend is getting better ^^

[9TailsFox]

I wish I could have banged Phillippa.. There's something about a cruel woman wearing a blindfold.

[9TailsFox]

Actually in E3 there was quite many games with female protagonist in the lead or at least you could choose which gender you play. Well, I haven't counted numbers, but since I'm not used to seeing many female protagonists I was suprised ^^ Mirror's Edge, Tomb Raider, Recore, Horizon, Dishonored and even Assassin Creed (+ others I can't remember now). I guess Ubisoft finally has learned how to animate women

 

So it at least seems that trend is getting better ^^

Dishonored 2 yes best game don't need to kill, and we can play as Emily, looks like Korvo tech her good will be fun. Don't care about Assassins creed since unity. I want Tomb Raider but no PC morons .

And Mirror Edge was marketed like it was first game with main female character.  Look look it's female. She fights against this evil corporation man.

[wright1978]

He also neglects to mention that the Baron was in a mutually abusive relationship. Anna abused him as well, though in different ways. Nor did he mention that the first time the Baron struck her was when Anna tried to murder him with a knife. He's clearly only interested in telling half of the story. Not surprised though, Grayson and Kotaku are a joke.

 

Yeah i didn't think much of the article. Desperately trying to push an agenda.