561 réponses à ce sujet

[Al Foley]

Generic nothing article to be honest. "Everyone does everything good, it's all valid,"

 

This kind of endless aspirational attitude that games have to do X or Y or Z better is starting to become nauseating because quite frankly most video games are pretty much exactly the same they've been content wise for however many years now.

 

The Witcher 3 is pretty much literally exactly the same as The Witcher 2, which is pretty much exactly the same as The Witcher 1.

 

It's the same with Dragon Age, there aren't really any substantial changes anywhere, well, unless you count the volume of commentary.

Tell that to all the people who argue that BioWare should make DA O 2 and Inquisition is a betryal of that concept and how the Dragon Age series has no identity because they keep on changing things from the ground up one game to the next.

[Seraphim24]

they keep on changing things from the ground up one game to the next.

 

That is an identity.

[Aren]

Too old - doesn't count as a woman!

Man. It really is telling.

Your point was: When BW tries for a "strong woman", they write a (female mabari).

It's simply not the case. Thanks. Play again.

Removed everything from Wynne she is a strong female character and doesn't have any flaw..

[Evamitchelle]

 

Are you referring about wynne? Because i honestly beside the mentor figure 

(which one can appreciate or not is subjective) i don't find her to be  "strong" she isn't charismatic she is too  preachy i already stated that

All the others examples that you have mentioned i have already answered,.while you at the same time  have mentioned just names without provide the reason of why you believe that they are strong.

welcome and goodbye

 

 

ps By the way again Liara is not a woman and Leliana is the worst example that one can mention, wear some glasses next time

 

 

So what exactly is your idea of a good female character ? Your list of disqualifying traits is getting pretty long : too old, too preachy, too self-centered, too mysterious, too cryptic, too self-righteous etc. When people say they want more strong female characters they usually mean they want [strong characters] female, rather than [strong female] character. That kinda requires giving them a couple of flaws.  

[Andraste_Reborn]

So what exactly is your idea of a good female character ? Your list of disqualifying traits is getting pretty long : too old, too preachy, too self-centered, too mysterious, too cryptic, too self-righteous etc. When people say they want more strong female characters they usually mean they want [strong characters] female, rather than [strong female] character. That kinda requires giving them a couple of flaws.  

 

Indeed. The fact that the women in Dragon Age are just as flawed as the men is what makes them awesome.

 

Of course, the instant they display flaws, some people start calling them weak or bitchy. A perfect demonstration of how women (including the fictional ones) can't win.

[Al Foley]

Indeed. The fact that the women in Dragon Age are just as flawed as the men is what makes them awesome.

 

Of course, the instant they display flaws, some people start calling them weak or bitchy. A perfect demonstration of how women (including the fictional ones) can't win.

how anyone is because as someone I read recently pointed out this attitude is as limiting to men.  If you can't portray various types of women as having flaws or weak and not be 'sexist' and if yu can't portray other minorities as having flaws and being weak without being racist.  Then who does that leave?

[Aren]

Interesting article from Kotaku's Nathan Grayson about portrayal of women in games.

 

 

 

The more i read the comments the more i understand that the discussion is been shifted from games

(which have their fictional elements and their timeline that have nothing to do with this world) to IRL issues.

As if  someone deliberately seek representation from a game....

[Panda]

 

Since we are discussing one quality which can be seen as subjective "being strong" ,don't get me wrong there are many characters in the DA franchise that i believe lack in this quality for my personal opinion (Orsino,Alistair,Anders, ecc..) not just women,but often women are the characters portrayed to be more overambitious in this franchise (Celene,Briala,Vivienne,Anora,Morrigan,Isabela) (aside from Gaspard and Eamon i don't remember many others overambitious man, Loghain may be not the correct example he is ust paranoid in DAO awesome in DAI)

Often people give whatever interpretation they wish and portray it as a meaningful example in being strong.

I have already clarified by opinion on Cassandra but Aveline,seriously we wish to compare Aveline to the Hero of Orlais?

I like her character but let's not forget that Aveline can be seen as a deserter, in DAII she whine (common denominator of many DA characters) all the time to beg to my Marian Hawke for help,she close her  eyes for Hawke's crimes...

sorry Whining is the antithesis (at least in my mind )of being strong.

Cassandra have her weakness of course,but she is also the type of character that i have found more balanced (not self centered by any mean) she obtain strenght by others point of views,while remaining anchored to her faith (Morrigan not so much especially in DAO always closed in her little world of ancient forgotten realms,basically her mother's daughter with the lack of Wisdom,Leliana is the opposite a Chameleon who change color based on who influenced her)

Solas is another that i found particularly compelling and a solid strong character,he is not ambitious and he knows what his pride have cost to others.

He doesn't search power (he have even gifted with his Orb Corypheus terrible mistakes of course) he wish to help the people,he will pursue his own agenda that is meant to help all the elves not his personal ambition.

 

 

 

Can you elaborate what makes Witchers female characters stronger?

[Aren]

Though I don't know if that applies to TW3's female characters, I haven't played it and probably won't anytime soon (I gave up halfway through TW1 because I found the combat tedious).

Well i think we are basically done here,you aren't even in the position to make a confrontation between the characters, the so called mono perspective .

[Eelectrica]

how anyone is because as someone I read recently pointed out this attitude is as limiting to men.  If you can't portray various types of women as having flaws or weak and not be 'sexist' and if yu can't portray other minorities as having flaws and being weak without being racist.  Then who does that leave?

I was going to go with robots, but then I remember in ME3 they decided that robots Geth are people too...

[Evamitchelle]

Well i think we are basically done here,you aren't even in the position to make a confrontation between the characters, the so called mono perspective .

 

Which is why I haven't. I haven't said anything about Triss or Ciri or Yennefer, what I responded to was the argument that Bioware sucks at writing "strong women". Meanwhile you still haven't explained why you think TW3's female characters are so much better than Bioware's.

[dsl08002]

I think that bioware were so terrified of being callled, homofobic, racist, and so on, that they created a wonderland in DA with no real concept of reality in medievel period. Basically "this is how it should be". But what it should have been is " this is how it was back then", which is what i think DAO did good, it was hinted in the background but wasnt as brutal reality witcher 3 was.

[Al Foley]

I think that bioware were so terrified of being callled, homofobic, racist, and so on, that they created a wonderland in DA with no real concept of reality in medievel period. Basically "this is how it should be". But what it should have been is " this is how it was back then", which is what i think DAO did good, it was hinted in the background but wasnt as brutal reality witcher 3 was.

You see this is one of those oddities.  Thedas is not the real world.  It is not a drama or a fiction that is supposed to be medeval Europe just losely based on same.  In some cases they take a lot of historical cues from real world Europe, and in some cases they do a lot of interesting twists...and in some ways they do a complete break.  But in universe, the Chant of Light does not have the prohibitions and taboos on homosexuality that Christianity/ Islam/ Judaism in the real world.  So the Souterhn Nations of thedas would have almost no reason, in lore, to be discriminatory against such people.  At least, in an organized fassion, people might have individual discomforts but its not instutitionalized.  Meanwhile, in the North, the Tevinter Imperium has huge taboos against homosexuality becuase of the importance they place on blood.  Purity there of and carrying on blood lines.  And while I am thinking about it the relationship between Celene and Briala was conducted behind closed doors because they were afraid of the political image their relationship would cause.  

 

As far as race is concerned.  The racial divides in Thedas again are in a completly different conext then they are in the real world...to be short and blunt why hate black people or oriental people when you can pick on Elves and Dwarves? 

[Panda]

I think that bioware were so terrified of being callled, homofobic, racist, and so on, that they created a wonderland in DA with no real concept of reality in medievel period. Basically "this is how it should be". But what it should have been is " this is how it was back then", which is what i think DAO did good, it was hinted in the background but wasnt as brutal reality witcher 3 was.

 

Dragon Age is not medieval simulator and never has been. It's fantasy game that has it's own fictional word Thedas that borrows some themes like knights and kings from medieval history, but it can choose what it borrows. There is no requirement that fantasy game should have same inequality between sexes as medieval era had. DAI and Witcher both have different inequalities that are tied to their world, both have theme of humans vs elves, DAI also non-mages vs mages. I think these are much more intresting to explore in game than simply make game's world full of sexism, racism and homophobia.

[Al Foley]

What I love about DA is the fact that it truly takes no prisoners and everyone is treated with balanced.  There are noble humans, Templars, and Chantry folk who do amazing work and are amazing forces for good just like there are evil mages, Elves who can be just as racist and pigheaded as the stupidest human, etc.  No one group is given a free pass, which is very realistic...and not preachy.  Even traditional victims in fiction and archetypes are often portrayed as just as bad as those people who would be traditionally considered evil.  

[dsl08002]

You see this is one of those oddities.  Thedas is not the real world.  It is not a drama or a fiction that is supposed to be medeval Europe just losely based on same.  In some cases they take a lot of historical cues from real world Europe, and in some cases they do a lot of interesting twists...and in some ways they do a complete break.  But in universe, the Chant of Light does not have the prohibitions and taboos on homosexuality that Christianity/ Islam/ Judaism in the real world.  So the Souterhn Nations of thedas would have almost no reason, in lore, to be discriminatory against such people.  At least, in an organized fassion, people might have individual discomforts but its not instutitionalized.  Meanwhile, in the North, the Tevinter Imperium has huge taboos against homosexuality becuase of the importance they place on blood.  Purity there of and carrying on blood lines.  And while I am thinking about it the relationship between Celene and Briala was conducted behind closed doors because they were afraid of the political image their relationship would cause.  
 
As far as race is concerned.  The racial divides in Thedas again are in a completly different conext then they are in the real world...to be short and blunt why hate black people or oriental people when you can pick on Elves and Dwarves?

Which is why DAI feels so bland, in the overall context. It feels so modern in ideals and equality and it doesn't fit. It is not primitive enough.

You could argue that it is a "Fantasy" BUT look at all fantasy- books, movies and series that where we fight with swords and shields all of them have a stroke of modern views in them strong women, equality and so on but not to much so its overpowering the medieval lore, it is still primitive enough so it could take place in that time.

And that is what DAI does completely overpowering.

[Andraste_Reborn]

There are SO many things about Thedas that would be unimaginable in Medieval Europe, and yet the only ones I ever hear complaints about are to do with sexism, racism and homophobia.

 

Just for starters: Thedas has strong nation states, and people have a sense of nationalism that would have been completely anachronistic during Earth's Middle Ages. Literacy rates are high. The complex bonds of feudalism never seem to be discussed. Nobody seems to think that diseases are caused by miasmas. There doesn't seem to be massive infant and childhood mortality. We never even see anybody pissing in the street! Not to mention that stuff like the amour designs and fashions are all over the place and don't belong to any single period in our history.

 

And all of this is fine, because Thedas is not Medieval Europe. It isn't trying to be. It's just borrowing some Medieval and Renaissance trappings because it's BioWare's take on classic High Fantasy tropes. You can't expect a world that has dragons, magic, elves and dwarves in it to be just like ours.

[Al Foley]

Which is why DAI feels so bland, in the overall context. It feels so modern in ideals and equality and it doesn't fit. It is not primitive enough.

You could argue that it is a "Fantasy" BUT look at all fantasy- books, movies and series that has medieval period all of them have a stroke of modern views in them strong women, equality and so on but not to much so its overpowering the medieval lore, it is still primitive enough so it could take place in that time.

And that is what DAI does completely overpowering.

As I said I feel like the contexts and social taboos have shifted not been eliminated.  Instead of homosexuality you have mage opression.  Instead of racism against 'blacks' (or other europeans) you have racism against Elves and Dwarves...and tension between Cultures, IE Ferelden against Olais, the Nations of the South against the Tevinter Imperium.  

[Evamitchelle]

There are SO many things about Thedas that would be unimaginable in Medieval Europe, and yet the only ones I ever hear complaints about are to do with sexism, racism and homophobia.

 

Just for starters: Thedas has strong nation states, and people have a sense of nationalism that would have been completely anachronistic during Earth's Middle Ages. Literacy rates are high. The complex bonds of feudalism never seem to be discussed. Nobody seems to think that diseases are caused by miasmas. There doesn't seem to be massive infant and childhood mortality. We never even see anybody pissing in the street! Not to mention that stuff like the amour designs and fashions are all over the place and don't belong to any single period in our history.

 

And all of this is fine, because Thedas is not Medieval Europe. It isn't trying to be. It's just borrowing some Medieval and Renaissance trappings because it's BioWare's take on classic High Fantasy tropes. You can't expect a world that has dragons, magic, elves and dwarves in it to be just like ours.

 

Yeah all this talk of 'realism' always sounds a bit suspect. I've yet to see anyone complain about the presence of naval artillery or printing in their medieval fantasy. (Though I thought it was a nice touch when the non-magical surgeon in the Hinterlands started talking about balancing of the humors). 

[Al Foley]

Yeah all this talk of 'realism' always sounds a bit suspect. I've yet to see anyone complain about the presence of naval artillery or printing in their medieval fantasy. (Though I thought it was a nice touch when the non-magical surgeon in the Hinterlands started talking about balancing of the humors). 

Actually that is one of the twists on history I love the most.  I mean not sure how I would feel about their inclusion but towars the end of the Dragon Age I would be more then curious to see what effect the introduction of basic fire arms, from the Qunari, have on the world.  

[Jester]

This is such a weird argument. I mean, if anyone, Cassandra and Aveline are much closer to the archetype of the "Strong Female Character" than Vivienne (scheming politician) and Sera (kind of bratty Robin Hood). 

It's very telling, that the archetype of a "strong female character" is a female with masculine character traits. 

Very telling indeed...

 

From Dragon Age side, I'd count into the group of "strong female characters" Morrigan, Vivienne, perhaps Leliana. Maybe Josephine or Sera as well. 

From The Witcher universe, definitely almost entire Lodge (Triss, Yennefer and Philippa in particular), Cirilla, Cerys, perhaps Saskia. 

 

Characters like Aveline or Cassandra, while female, are characterized with positive masculine character traits - brave, physically strong, loyal, good military leader... And while that's not bad, you can hardly call them strong 'female' characters, as their leading positive traits are taken straight from the "male hero" archetype. 

[Evamitchelle]

I think that bioware were so terrified of being callled, homofobic, racist, and so on, that they created a wonderland in DA with no real concept of reality in medievel period. Basically "this is how it should be". But what it should have been is " this is how it was back then", which is what i think DAO did good, it was hinted in the background but wasnt as brutal reality witcher 3 was.

 

Also I think it's very telling that every time a developer tries to be somewhat inclusive they're always accused of pandering, or trying to appear liberal, or any other dishonest PR-related reason. As if no one could actually want to include minorities. I mean if you take a look at Dragon Age's writing team: David Gaider, the lead writer of all previous games, is a gay guy, and about half the team is made up of women. Is it really that surprising that they maybe don't want to create a world where women and gay people are treated horribly ?

 

Actually that is one of the twists on history I love the most.  I mean not sure how I would feel about their inclusion but towars the end of the Dragon Age I would be more then curious to see what effect the introduction of basic fire arms, from the Qunari, have on the world.  

 

 

Yeah if we're heading north in the future games as has been hinted, I'd definitely like to see that idea expanded upon. 

[Dieb]

"Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

 

 

Characters like Aveline or Cassandra, while female, are characterized with positive masculine character traits - brave, physically strong, loyal, good military leader... And while that's not bad, you can hardly call them strong 'female' characters, as their leading positive traits are taken straight from the "male hero" archetype. 

 

They should have portrayed them with being superhumanly compassionate, devinely empathetic and outrageously good at cleaning.

[Al Foley]

"Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"

 

 

 

"They should have protrayed them with being superhumanly compassionate, devinely empathetic and outrageously good at cleaning."

hmmm Cassandra in a maid outfit with a dusting thingy.  

 

(Disgusted noise)

 

I mean right, sorry, carry on dear.  

 

*gets run through with sword*

 

Ow.  

[Panda]

It's very telling, that the archetype of a "strong female character" is a female with masculine character traits. 

Very telling indeed...

 

From Dragon Age side, I'd count into the group of "strong female characters" Morrigan, Vivienne, perhaps Leliana. Maybe Josephine or Sera as well. 

From The Witcher universe, definitely almost entire Lodge (Triss, Yennefer and Philippa in particular), Cirilla, Cerys, perhaps Saskia. 

 

Characters like Aveline or Cassandra, while female, are characterized with positive masculine character traits - brave, physically strong, loyal, good military leader... And while that's not bad, you can hardly call them strong 'female' characters, as their leading positive traits are taken straight from the "male hero" archetype. 

 

I think it's true that "strong female character" architype often has masculine traits. However strenght, bravery, loyalty and leadership aren't traits that women don't have and aren't desirable to women to have also, personality traits aren't sth that certain genders own and are undesirable on another gender. It just means that society has coded these traits as masculine and historically as sth that mens have more than women, though that's quite big generalization to make.

 

Overall Morrigan, Vivienne and Leliana is different kind of set strong female characters than Cassandra and Aveline, but I don't really think you can dismish Cass and Aveline that easily either. Women are different and have different desirable traits (strenghts) and undesirable traits (weaknesses) just like men do.