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Interesting article from Kotaku's Nathan Grayson about portrayal of women in games. DA:I is also mentioned in it.


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#526
midnight tea

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 There’s a lot you can debate about the strength of that feedback loop. I tend to think it’s rather weak, and what there is, is probably very complex in nature. What you are arguing can be used in favour of a progressive, activist agenda for fiction, based on the idea that fiction can genuinely influence attitudes and behaviour . Using fiction to make the world a ‘better place’, so to speak. Alternatively, it can be also be used to do the same thing for ideas that are repulsive to a modern liberal-progressive person, which I suspect pretty much describes us both.

Some writers, cinematographers, songwriters (as well as some of their customers) etc. seem rather fond of the idea of them having a tremendous influence, but that kind of figures…

 

I'm not sure why you're making it look as if I think that things I mention are somehow not complex? Obviously they are, as the debate of their strength might as well be old as art itself. I merely point out its existence.
 

I'm also not sure why are you trying to frame your argument as if I've made my claim about art being only a positive force or something (especially in light of everything I've said in a given post, rather than it being taken out of context). The 'positive feedback loop' simply describes the way art influences culture and culture influences art in return, not that it's 'positive' per se. Obviously this can be done in good and bad way - which is EXACTLY why it's good to think about how we portray people, because it can easily skew the picture or perpetuate bad stereotypes.

 

I mean, let's face it - even in modern world a lot of people know other people, cultures or issues oftentimes THROUGH some kind of art/fiction/medium. That is not to say that it's the ultimate or definitive thing that shapes the world, but to it's hard to deny its influence.

Which is why it's entirely justified for creators to feel as if they have power over what they feed their audience or can shape their worlds or views on things. Not necessarily TREMENDOUS (sure, why not make it look like artists are delusional in thinking what they can achieve...), but enough to think about what they're doing, especially if they want to make a point about something.

 

 

EDIT: WOW, this is long. The rest I'll just spoiler tag for the sake of 'un-wall-of-text-ing' this thread a bit:

Spoiler

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#527
midnight tea

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I found that the "women-as-sex-objects" problem really only existed in the first game.  The second and third are much better about promoting strong female characters.

 

.... And people are able to forgive that, while - when DA makes some form of change, even a far subtler one (or does something that can be viewed as change, but isn't necessarily one) - it's called out as 'glaring discontinuity' or lack of realism???


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#528
9TailsFox

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Blimey, that was a long post. My apologies...

So by way of a humourous intermission, stop reading half-way and take a look at this:

death-male_stereotype-expression-idiom-s

...and then continue if you're even remotely interested. This is what you get when you react to a thread that's been going on for a while...

Spoiler


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#529
midnight tea

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The exclusion is certainly 'real,' isn't it? If we look at say, morbidly obese characters being nearly absent in fiction, that's a very 'real' phenomenon happening to a very 'real' catagory of people. Or fictional characters in general and particularly protagonists tending to be very attractive, that's certainly very real.

 

That's just one big non sequitur. The fact that certain groups are excluded, from, say, our fiction doesn't have much to do with what we discussed before.

 

I'd also like to point out that what's fat or "obese" can be very subjective after all. Many major actresses or models who aren't size 0, had to face accusation of being "fat". That's not exactly an environment that fosters much inclusivity, isn't it?

 

In any case I don't see how trends propagating either anorexic or morbidly obese people can be described as good or harmless - both carry serious health-risks OR (in case of people suffering of bullimia or anorexia or those who are literally addicted to food) are the result of serious mental issues. In either case, there exists a healthy middle ground that encompasses a lot of weights, sizes and shapes and I'm looking forward to it being expanded.

 

 

 

Nobody is saying that these many of these things aren't subjective. But it's inarguably that certain trends have arisen.

 

And those trends will be a subject of change in the upcoming future. Intelligence, for example, wasn't really a trait valued in women for quite a long time, just like outward appearance of male wasn't really as important in many past ages as it is now.

 

 

 

All that does is split one trait into several. It doesn't change anything. Besides, it's not as real life is an RPG and everyone is given an equal amount of skill points to distribute where they want. Some people are good at a great deal of things. Some people aren't good at much of anything.

 

That's a loaded statement. Even people with no specific talents can find something they're interested in and dedicate themselves to, making their life valuable. Also - I'd rather say that most people are good at just some things, realistically speaking. We're not just divided into "those who are good at most things and those who are crap at pretty much everything". Hence why diversity, equal opportunity and cooperation are important - there's always someone who knows something better than we do or has certain (learned or inherent) talent or set of skills with which they can help themselves and others. There's no point of excluding people just because they lay far from unreachable ideal.

 

 

The same thing we do with anyone else. Give them the opportunity to make the most of themselves and find whatever happiness they can find in life.

 

....And what makes you think that equality means something different?

 

 

 

It applies to gender because people find value in masculinity and femininty. I'm not going to touch race except to say that I think the idea that all cultures are equally moral and intelligent is flatly stupid.

 

"Masculinity" and "femininity" are fairly artificial constructs that have changed and will change over time. So are many of our preconceptions about many ethnicities and cultures.


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#530
Ridwan

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I played the Witcher and it sucked. Never bothered with 2 or 3 after the first one wasted my time. That being said, I doubt the Witcher series improved dramatically in "dissecting" and, what was it... promoting "growth" of complex issues or some such B.S.? I mean, the entire game is pretty much the typical male power fantasy where all large-breasted, sexy ladies want to **** Geralt. 

Holy ****, full tumblr alert. 


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#531
Legion of 1337

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Nothing. Why we need to replace with something. Religion have no practical purpose at all after creating collage of enchanters even more, mages can take care themselves. If you can't imagine world without chantry doesn't mean it's impossible.

What do you think all those people who use the Chantry to give them answers about existence? You think they're just going to go "Well, I guess I don't know the answers to any of life's mysteries" and carry on? There's a reason the Chantry exists in the first place you know.



#532
chrstnmonks

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What do you think all those people who use the Chantry to give them answers about existence? You think they're just going to go "Well, I guess I don't know the answers to any of life's mysteries" and carry on? There's a reason the Chantry exists in the first place you know.

I agree with all your saying but to add to this. Alot of poor  people are proably helped by the Chantry. They most likely get there meals and clothes from there. And if there is any type of education for the poor exist  in Thedas it mostlikely comes from the brothers or sisters of the Chantry. If the Chantry where to collaspe awhole lot more people would suffer more than they do now.



#533
Ariella

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I agree with all your saying but to add to this. Alot of poor  people are proably helped by the Chantry. They most likely get there meals and clothes from there. And if there is any type of education for the poor exist  in Thedas it mostlikely comes from the brothers or sisters of the Chantry. If the Chantry where to collaspe awhole lot more people would suffer more than they do now.


I'm thinking that there may be more education in Thedas than would have been in the Middle Ages. The whole concept is based aroud spreading the Chant, and singing it. There's be no room for derivation in that case. Unlike Christianity where people aren't expected to be able to recite the entirety of the Gospels.

#534
midnight tea

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I'm thinking that there may be more education in Thedas than would have been in the Middle Ages. The whole concept is based aroud spreading the Chant, and singing it. There's be no room for derivation in that case. Unlike Christianity where people aren't expected to be able to recite the entirety of the Gospels.

 

I don't think anyone expected much of common folk other than not questioning the priest - they were mostly educated on the content of the Bible through pictures; most of which they could find on walls in their local churches. In fact, quite a few of common misconceptions about content of the Bible itself stem from that form of 'education', like the fact that great many people imagine the Forbidden Fruit as an apple.

 

In fact, many folks didn't even understand what the priest was talking about, especially in countries that were using Latin, rather than local language. That was cultivated in large parts of Poland (at least) for so long, that even my parents remember holy masses being entirely in Latin happening back when they were around their 20-ties.



#535
Legion of 1337

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I agree with all your saying but to add to this. Alot of poor  people are proably helped by the Chantry. They most likely get there meals and clothes from there. And if there is any type of education for the poor exist  in Thedas it mostlikely comes from the brothers or sisters of the Chantry. If the Chantry where to collaspe awhole lot more people would suffer more than they do now.

IRL atheists, of which I am one, often seem to not understand that in a society with virtually no scientific knowledge, religion is a vital part of social order, cohesion, and welfare. Without it, people literally go nuts because they don't know anything about anything, they have no answers to any questions, so the vast unknown causes extreme paranoia, fear and emotional distress because nothing makes any sense to them.


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#536
midnight tea

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IRL atheists, of which I am one, often seem to not understand that in a society with virtually no scientific knowledge, religion is a vital part of social order, cohesion, and welfare. Without it, people literally go nuts because they don't know anything about anything, they have no answers to any questions, so the vast unknown causes extreme paranoia, fear and emotional distress because nothing makes any sense to them.

 

True. Though it doesn't help that religious heads usually spin that to their favor, telling people that they'd be nothing without their guidance and actively obstructing gaining any knowledge by populace, aside from what they approve. It's part of a rather vicious circle.



#537
Deztyn

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I agree with all your saying but to add to this. Alot of poor  people are proably helped by the Chantry. They most likely get there meals and clothes from there. And if there is any type of education for the poor exist  in Thedas it mostlikely comes from the brothers or sisters of the Chantry. If the Chantry where to collaspe awhole lot more people would suffer more than they do now.

 
Taking in orphans and refugees, no questions asked sanctuary for any who need it, tending to the sick and wounded. The Chantry is basically Thedosian Social Services.

 

I'm thinking that there may be more education in Thedas than would have been in the Middle Ages. The whole concept is based aroud spreading the Chant, and singing it. There's be no room for derivation in that case. Unlike Christianity where people aren't expected to be able to recite the entirety of the Gospels.

 
Origins indicated that the Chantry was indeed responsible for most of the education in the lower classes. Brother Burkel mentions it as a feature of having a Chantry during his questline. They are the ones who teach most children to read, and the Templars and Chantry personal are the best educated people in Thedas outside of the nobility and mages. But the entire population isn't literate, Asunder also indicated that among the peasants of Orlais there are many who can't read. It was a neat little scene that highlighted how the mage protagonist wasn't really aware of how many privileges he had that others don't.
 

IRL atheists, of which I am one, often seem to not understand that in a society with virtually no scientific knowledge, religion is a vital part of social order, cohesion, and welfare. Without it, people literally go nuts because they don't know anything about anything, they have no answers to any questions, so the vast unknown causes extreme paranoia, fear and emotional distress because nothing makes any sense to them.

 

QFT.

Religion can also be a powerful way to influence people to act in a way that benefits society on the whole.

"Behave or you will be punished for all eternity" is almost necessary in a crapsack world with no reliable criminal justice system to act as a deterrent to crime.



#538
In Exile

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IRL atheists, of which I am one, often seem to not understand that in a society with virtually no scientific knowledge, religion is a vital part of social order, cohesion, and welfare. Without it, people literally go nuts because they don't know anything about anything, they have no answers to any questions, so the vast unknown causes extreme paranoia, fear and emotional distress because nothing makes any sense to them.

 

You're misapprehending the role of science vis-a-vis non-belief, then. It may well be that people need belief to have a cogent social order, but science is by no means how you could come to an atheistic worldview. At most you can reject the currently postulated gods, but that's about it. The rest is all pure philosophy. 



#539
Aren

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You're misapprehending the role of science vis-a-vis non-belief, then. It may well be that people need belief to have a cogent social order, but science is by no means how you could come to an atheistic worldview. At most you can reject the currently postulated gods, but that's about it. The rest is all pure philosophy. 

Yep
Agree, Science does not equate to non-belief ,actually the entire premise doesn't make sense.
It's a Non sequitur  that is often used by many.


#540
Aren

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 One thing people who argued against me have overlooked is this: I am not asking for a world with sexism. I am asking "If this world has no sexism, how the heck did it get there"? 

With retcon, the power of fantasy.

 

retcon:in a film, television series, or other fictional work a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.



#541
The Big Red One

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I played the Witcher and it sucked. Never bothered with 2 or 3 after the first one wasted my time. That being said, I doubt the Witcher series improved dramatically in "dissecting" and, what was it... promoting "growth" of complex issues or some such B.S.? I mean, the entire game is pretty much the typical male power fantasy where all large-breasted, sexy ladies want to **** Geralt.

 
This must be the new low. is this what uninformed witcher haters like to spew?
 
I really dont care whether someone likes TW or not, but posts like this conjure up the image of a frothing mad person, unable to post anything relevant apart from embarassing assumptions.
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#542
Guest_Donkson_*

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I played the Witcher and it sucked. Never bothered with 2 or 3 after the first one wasted my time. That being said, I doubt the Witcher series improved dramatically in "dissecting" and, what was it... promoting "growth" of complex issues or some such B.S.? I mean, the entire game is pretty much the typical male power fantasy where all large-breasted, sexy ladies want to **** Geralt. 

 

You should actually play the game before making assumptions like that.

 

Perhaps you're accurate about the first game, but 3 is very different. 3 makes a point of including both "male power fantasy" and "feminism".


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#543
9TailsFox

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What do you think all those people who use the Chantry to give them answers about existence? You think they're just going to go "Well, I guess I don't know the answers to any of life's mysteries" and carry on? There's a reason the Chantry exists in the first place you know.

Qunari perfectly fine without chantry or any gods.



#544
midnight tea

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Qunari perfectly fine without chantry or any gods.

 

Perfectly fine? Even a Qunari as intelligent as Iron Bull thinks that he'd be a savage monster if he doesn't follow the Qun. In that regard they're no better than those taught that they're sinners/bad/go to hell if they don't follow specific holy text or religion. It's safe to assume that a lot of the Qunari follow the Qun out of sheer fear.



#545
9TailsFox

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IRL atheists, of which I am one, often seem to not understand that in a society with virtually no scientific knowledge, religion is a vital part of social order, cohesion, and welfare. Without it, people literally go nuts because they don't know anything about anything, they have no answers to any questions, so the vast unknown causes extreme paranoia, fear and emotional distress because nothing makes any sense to them.

This is main reason why religion is bad. We don't know, and will never know everything. Religion answers all your questions so you don't need to seek and understand more. Look at the Dalish they using slave markings on their faces like it some good and honourable think. Chantry deleted Shartan from history just because he is elf. If we get ride of chantry we still have laws. And there will still be bad and good people whenever chantry exist or not.



#546
9TailsFox

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Perfectly fine? Even a Qunari as intelligent as Iron Bull thinks that he'd be a savage monster if he doesn't follow the Qun. In that regard they're no better than those taught that they're sinners/bad/go to hell if they don't follow specific holy text or religion. It's safe to assume that a lot of the Qunari follow the Qun out of sheer fear.

Qun is not religion. The Qun is a code of honor based on the writings of the Ashkaari Koslun. The Qun is a philosophy, a set of laws, a legislative guide, and a social architecture governing the Qunari. Qun is basically constitution.



#547
midnight tea

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Qun is not religion. The Qun is a code of honor based on the writings of the Ashkaari Koslun. The Qun is a philosophy, a set of laws, a legislative guide, and a social architecture governing the Qunari. Qun is basically constitution.

 

Sometimes there's no fine line between philosophy and religion (considering that most religions have some form of leading philosophy within). And what happens in, say, North Korea is not religion per se, but it's still has a lot in common with it.



#548
midnight tea

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Yep
Agree, Science does not equate to non-belief ,actually the entire premise doesn't make sense.
It's a Non sequitur  that is often used by many.

 

 

It doesn't equate non-belief per se, yet more scientifically-minded people tend to be more on atheistic side, just like many scientists are.



#549
9TailsFox

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Sometimes there's no fine line between philosophy and religion (considering that most religions have some form of leading philosophy within). And what happens in, say, North Korea is not religion per se, but it's still has a lot in common with it.

Fine you can call Qun Nontheistic religions. it's still don't change fact what world still go on without chantry, just fine.



#550
9TailsFox

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It doesn't equate non-belief per se, yet more scientifically-minded people tend to be more on atheistic side, just like many scientists are.

Yes because like I said.

Religion is I know.

Science is I don't know and want to know.