561 réponses à ce sujet

[Jester]

They should have portrayed them with being superhumanly compassionate, devinely empathetic and outrageously good at cleaning.

Nope. They are good just as they are. 

I was merely replying to a commment claiming that Vivienne is not a good example of a strong female character, but Aveline is. 

Now in my opinion it's riddiculous to claim, that strong female character archetype, should be a female with masculine traits.

 

Overall Morrigan, Vivienne and Leliana is different kind of set strong female characters than Cassandra and Aveline, but I don't really think you can dismish Cass and Aveline that easily either. Women are different and have different desirable traits (strenghts) and undesirable traits (weaknesses) just like men do.

 

Of course. An archetype is a certain philosophical concept. I do not claim, that there are no (or that there shouldn't be) females having characteristics from a "male hero" archetype.

 

But when we speak about strong female characters, I certainly prefer the more believable (at least for me) archetype represented by say Morrigan, Philippa Eilhart, Vivienne, Empress Celene, Claire Underwood...

 

That archetype definately exists, and I find it far more interesting, compelling and... pardon my expression "women friendly" than physically strong, heroic, masculinized females, like Aveline, Cassandra, Brienne of Tarth or Milva (from Witcher novels). 

Of course variety is always desirable and is certainly needed in every form of art - but I'm strongly opposed to the idea, the the truly strong females are those with masculine characteristics. 

[Al Foley]

Nope. They are good just as they are. 

I was merely replying to a commment claiming that Vivienne is not a good example of a strong female character, but Aveline is. 

Now in my opinion it's riddiculous to claim, that strong female character archetype, should be a female with masculine traits.

Ah so thats your point.  Interesting.  And I would like...if I could.

[Dieb]

Nope. They are good just as they are. 

I was merely replying to a commment claiming that Vivienne is not a good example of a strong female character, but Aveline is. 

Now in my opinion it's riddiculous to claim, that strong female character archetype, should be a female with masculine traits.

 

No, no, we are on the same page. That's a wonderfully disgusting thing to say again, right there. Braveness, loyalty and leadership skills being inherently masculine traits - I'm just using the very things you listed. Please correct me making a potentially horrible mistake, if by that you would say a woman who is brave, is more masculine because of this; as opposed to a very timid one being more female because of her cowardice? A disloyal woman is more feminine than a loyal one - which she logically must be if loyalty is a masculine trait?

 

But then again, here we are, another bunch of dudes discussing how we would feel better about women.

 

Let's leave it at that. You have your worldview and I have mine, which includes loving you regardless!

[SnakeCode]

Wait, people still take Nathan Grayson seriously?

[Eelectrica]

Wait, people still take Nathan Grayson seriously?

I followed the link and skimmed through it. There was one bad inaccuracy where he said the Baron punched his daughter which the Baron vehemently denies in the quest. Guess the author decided not to let details get in the way of the story he was telling.

[SnakeCode]

I followed the link and skimmed through it. There was one bad inaccuracy where he said the Baron punched his daughter which the Baron vehemently denies in the quest. Guess the author decided not to let details get in the way of the story he was telling.

 

He also neglects to mention that the Baron was in a mutually abusive relationship. Anna abused him as well, though in different ways. Nor did he mention that the first time the Baron struck her was when Anna tried to murder him with a knife. He's clearly only interested in telling half of the story. Not surprised though, Grayson and Kotaku are a joke.

[SolNebula]

IMO BW is trying too hard to be good and tolerant and this in my own view sacrifice how much such world is believable. It's impossible to have a totally sexist, racist free world. IMO they aren't tackling the issues of our society but just ignoring them creating a politically correct world that have no connection with the values, problems and pending issues of our society. This is why I appreciate TW world more, because yet in that DARK and realistic world they create believable and strong woman characters. Like is happening in our unfair world.

 

To use a culinary metaphor, BW is sugar-coating everything in their games with the risk of becoming diabetic.

[Panda]

Nope. They are good just as they are. 

I was merely replying to a commment claiming that Vivienne is not a good example of a strong female character, but Aveline is. 

Now in my opinion it's riddiculous to claim, that strong female character archetype, should be a female with masculine traits.

 

Of course. An archetype is a certain philosophical concept. I do not claim, that there are no (or that there shouldn't be) females having characteristics from a "male hero" archetype.

 

But when we speak about strong female characters, I certainly prefer the more believable (at least for me) archetype represented by say Morrigan, Philippa Eilhart, Vivienne, Empress Celene, Claire Underwood...

 

That archetype definately exists, and I find it far more interesting, compelling and... pardon my expression "women friendly" than physically strong, heroic, masculinized females, like Aveline, Cassandra, Brienne of Tarth or Milva (from Witcher novels). 

Of course variety is always desirable and is certainly needed in every form of art - but I'm strongly opposed to the idea, the the truly strong females are those with masculine characteristics. 

 

Ah yes I understand your point now of strong female archtype. Though I think that female characters type of Vivienne are bit overused too, meaning female characters whose strenght is in their ambitiousness and intrigue. Vivienne does have many other traits too, but I think that strong female characters who are meant to be strong, because they are ambitious and great in intrigue are quite popular archtype of female characters too, maybe even more than "masculine strong females" and bit overused. I think best situation would be to get more vast female characters with different strenghts and weaknesses and we have already seen some of this in the games like DA. Though personally my fav female characters usually do belong to those "masculine strong female" characters ^^

[Aren]

.

 

From Dragon Age side, I'd count into the group of "strong female characters" Morrigan, Vivienne, perhaps Leliana. Maybe Josephine or Sera as well. 

From The Witcher universe, definitely almost entire Lodge (Triss, Yennefer and Philippa in particular), Cirilla, Cerys, perhaps Saskia. 

 

Characters like Aveline or Cassandra, while female, are characterized with positive masculine character traits - brave, physically strong, loyal, good military leader... And while that's not bad, you can hardly call them strong 'female' characters, as their leading positive traits are taken straight from the "male hero" archetype. 

Sorry but  Cassandra is a strong and complex female character,and her positive traits have nothing to do with the male hero archetype which is ultimately  a meaningless generalization.

Aveline is a great character but i dont like her because she close her eyes on my female mage Hawke crimes.

(which i understand have nothing to do with the discussion)

[Evamitchelle]

Nope. They are good just as they are. 

I was merely replying to a commment claiming that Vivienne is not a good example of a strong female character, but Aveline is. 

Now in my opinion it's riddiculous to claim, that strong female character archetype, should be a female with masculine traits.

 

Of course. An archetype is a certain philosophical concept. I do not claim, that there are no (or that there shouldn't be) females having characteristics from a "male hero" archetype.

 

But when we speak about strong female characters, I certainly prefer the more believable (at least for me) archetype represented by say Morrigan, Philippa Eilhart, Vivienne, Empress Celene, Claire Underwood...

 

That archetype definately exists, and I find it far more interesting, compelling and... pardon my expression "women friendly" than physically strong, heroic, masculinized females, like Aveline, Cassandra, Brienne of Tarth or Milva (from Witcher novels). 

Of course variety is always desirable and is certainly needed in every form of art - but I'm strongly opposed to the idea, the the truly strong females are those with masculine characteristics. 

 

I wasn't saying that Vivienne herself is not a strong woman, but she's not the typical representation of a "Strong Female Character", which usually implies a really non-girly girl who's good at some kind of fighting (bonus if she says at least once that "she's not like other girls"). When people mention a "strong female character" they usually mean Arya Stark and not Sansa. 

 

Otherwise I agree that having more variety is a good thing, and I think Bioware has done pretty well in that regard. 

[Sah291]

Ah yes I understand your point now of strong female archtype. Though I think that female characters type of Vivienne are bit overused too, meaning female characters whose strenght is in their ambitiousness and intrigue. Vivienne does have many other traits too, but I think that strong female characters who are meant to be strong, because they are ambitious and great in intrigue are quite popular archtype of female characters too, maybe even more than "masculine strong females" and bit overused. I think best situation would be to get more vast female characters with different strenghts and weaknesses and we have already seen some of this in the games like DA. Though personally my fav female characters usually do belong to those "masculine strong female" characters ^^

 

I agree, in my opinion there isn't just one "strong female" archetype. Women are individuals, with different personalities, and different strengths and weaknesses. To me, "strong" female character means a "well written" female character. 

 

The problem is when you have just one or a couple female characters, people tend to take those single characters as representing everything about women, or project onto them some ideal. As a woman, I certainly know the feeling. When you go into a male dominated field, and when you are the only woman present, you feel like you have less leeway to make a mistake, because like it or not people are comparing and judging other women based on your performance. Like it or not, you become representative of your gender, and not just representing yourself. 

 

But when you have several or many female characters in a story, there is room to flesh them out and make them diverse, with their own strengths and flaws. Then the focus isn't all about them being "female" and representing their identity group, but on their personality as a character, and their role in the narrative.  I think DA has been pretty good about this with their female characters so far. In my opinion, there isn't a problem with female characters portraying so called "masculine" traits (Aveline, Cassandra, etc), or being portrayed as sexy or sensual (Isabela, Morrigan, etc) when they exist in world with other types of female characters. If they were all like Isabela or Aveline, though, then it would probably bug me.

[Al Foley]

These comparisons and obsessions with political issues in games needs to cease.

This is getting ridiculous -- people play games to escape this crap.

I respect and applaud Bioware for what they have done in including gay and transgender characters.

I love Cd Projekt Red for not being afraid to include dark themes in their games, while being respectful to females (as is stated elsewhere in the thread) by creating strong, powerful women, but also acknowledging the fact that there is misogyny -- because it is realistic, not some secret political agenda to make every man a misogynist or whatever it is that people think when they take political issues in games way too seriously. While you can't **** a man as Geralt, in my game I encountered a gay character. You know what? He was just a regular Joe, an average man and not dressed up in any gay male "stereotypes"

To sum it up; there is enough of this garbage without the toxicity seeping into our entertainment. And BOTH sides of this little war are as bad as each other.

Both "social justice warriors" and those who believe there's a politically correct agenda happening.

As for the article itself; writers and journalists will write whatever crap just so long as they know it will be read by a wide audience, feeding the toxicity train.

Rant over.

*slow clap*  

 

...still though sci fi and fantasy has been doing, and inviting this kind of commentary for years.  I think that is why BioWare and CD Projeckt Red generally attracts very intelligent people on both sides of the debate...whihc maybe we should both recognize.  

[The Elder King]

IMO BW is trying too hard to be good and tolerant and this in my own view sacrifice how much such world is believable. It's impossible to have a totally sexist, racist free world. IMO they aren't tackling the issues of our society but just ignoring them creating a politically correct world that have no connection with the values, problems and pending issues of our society. This is why I appreciate TW world more, because yet in that DARK and realistic world they create believable and strong woman characters. Like is happening in our unfair world.
 
To use a culinary metaphor, BW is sugar-coating everything in their games with the risk of becoming diabetic.

Indeed. But Thedas isn't a Totally sexist and racist (expecially racist free ) Free world.

[SnakeCode]

Indeed. But Thedas isn't a Totally sexist and racist (expecially racist free ) Free world.

 

This is true. Racism is usually explored with the elves. Both through people being racist towards them and elves being racist towards humans.

 

As for sexism, the dominant religion in the world is a matriarchal organisation with a dogma prejudiced against men because of the actions of one guy. Where men can only rise high enough to be glorified servants and mouthpieces. People always remark on how sexist Christianity is towards women IRL, it's funny how nobody seems to notice when it's been flipped on it's head and the opposite is true.

[Panda]

This is true. Racism is usually explored with the elves. Both through people being racist towards them and elves being racist towards humans.

 

As for sexism, the dominant religion in the world is a matriarchal organisation with a dogma prejudiced against men because of the actions of one guy. Where men can only rise high enough to be glorified servants and mouthpieces. People always remark on how sexist Christianity is towards women IRL, it's funny how nobody seems to notice when it's been flipped on it's head and the opposite is true.

 

Only thing Andrastianism has that is inequal between sexes is that men can't be priests. They can still be part of Chantry as brothers, seekers, templars and so on. Christianity in other hand was used in medieval era how women can't fit to high positions and how their husbands are above them, because Eva offered apple to Adam and so all women are sinful and weak-willed. In DAI men can be in all positions of power except chantry priests, they can own money, they get educated, they can be scholars and they first under their fathers will and then their husbands when they marry. I don't really think you can compare sexism of Andrastianism to sexism that has been part of Christianity and medieval society in history.

[zambingo]

zambingo, you might be overdoing it just a little.

Sera-Speak has worth too. :-P

[zambingo]

IMO BW is trying too hard to be good and tolerant and this in my own view sacrifice how much such world is believable. It's impossible to have a totally sexist, racist free world. IMO they aren't tackling the issues of our society but just ignoring them creating a politically correct world that have no connection with the values, problems and pending issues of our society. This is why I appreciate TW world more, because yet in that DARK and realistic world they create believable and strong woman characters. Like is happening in our unfair world.

To use a culinary metaphor, BW is sugar-coating everything in their games with the risk of becoming diabetic.

HAHAHAHAHA

Hey, guess wut? Thedas?! It's full of rainbows apparently.

[raging_monkey]

Bioskittles?

taste the rainbow

[Korva]

But then again, here we are, another bunch of dudes discussing how we would feel better about women.

 

Thank you.

 

If I never have to hear another male/straight/cis/white player complain about how "boring", "bland", "unrealistic", "political" and "pandering" (oh the irony -- as if there is no political agenda in trying to preserve an unequal, bigoted status quo) it is to for female/gay/trans/non-white characters to be treated as human beings -- or for us to exist at all -- it'll be too damn soon.

 

Especially if we're talking about a fantasy setting. Anything goes, anything is fine, from gods and demons to dragons and zombies and of course the superpowered oh-so-cool-and-important protagonist going face to face with something the size of a house and teeth bigger than he is tall. But it has to be a he. If a woman does it, it's suddenly unrealistic.

 

And as for the "masculine" BS -- seriously? That's a social construct, and a really crappy one to boot because it tries to lock women out of so many valuable skills and positive traits. Not to mention the sheer hypocrisy in how the same trait is treated as positive or negative, based purely on whether it is displayed by a man or a woman. Confidence versus b*tchiness for example, or stud versus ****. The notion that women who display "masculine"-coded traits and skills "deny" or "sacrifice" their "femininity" (or need to "make up" for it by placatingly displaying "feminine" traits as well) needs to die in a fire. Same for men and "feminine" traits and skills.

[Mihura]

Well I did played both games and I am highly critical of both too because DA:I is not in anyway perfect. I already did said quite a lot of that in this same forum. Also this post is full of spoilers so be afraid!

On a more general note the major problem I saw with The Witcher is the lack of more practical designs on female characters and some cringeworthy feminist one liners. I still think it was a mistake to put Ciri with a sorceress outfit and having the child version of her with a more practical one, it is creepy. The Ves quote about her armor was really, really bad and so was the conversation you have with the elven woman about saving her.

The Baron quest was actually pretty great in my opinion, it shows that abuse is not done by a "evil twist mustache man" but people that sometimes even seem cool but are huge pieces of trash to their family. The Baron is charismatic but he is also a violent man that abuses his wife, I hate the guy obviously and if people do not, maybe it is time to have a really hard reflection of your life morals and that is great art for me. It does not reflect your morals, it challenge them. 

There is also a "problem" with violence against women in game but normally you only see or hear this violence after the crime, you do not see it in first person. The most horrible one to me was seeing Sile in prison and you could only killed her or leave her there. That one was the most problematic quests in game because it should had been Yen to have agency with the decision and not Geralt, Geralt is not a sorceress and have no business deciding their fate.

That is why making Philippa kill Radovid was a genius move, it gave agency to the lodge and in general the woman that were tortured by Radovid. They got their revenge with Philippa, by far it is the best scene in game. Also killing Junior should had been a lot more gory that one deserves it, too bad they shy way from that. 

I know there are more good example of women punching sexism in the face but the bigger one for me was Ciri journey, whatever you do in game as Geralt the ending with her is always a reaction to your action. You cannot contain her or talk her down when she decides something in the end, you affect her life with your shitty or good advises but you will never control her.

PS: Also the beggars in game with the line "help save me I am dying of poverty" is strong political statement. It seems to be played for laughs but it is really not.

[In Exile]

I think the author is entirely incorrect. Actually, I find it kind of shocking in how incorrect he is given the point he's going for because the following just isn't true:

Spoiler

The Bloody Baron questline does not portray the Baron as a villainous madman. He’s an *******, sure, but he’s in turns compassionate and remorseful. He seems to be alcoholic, and his excuses for his horrible actions are often pathetic. He knows he fucked up. He wants to make up for it. His wife and daughter, on the other hand, think he waited way too long to turn that corner, and they don’t trust him. Why should they? They just want to move on with their lives.

The character in-game is in no way portrayed compassionately. He's shown as villainously as one can show a human being without reducing that person to a Saturday morning cartoon caricature. The idea that the character is compassionate is entirely a projection by the players - it's a conclusion people draw from his actions and their own perceptions, because the game takes every opportunity to portray him as beyond worthless garbage.

The entire sequence is also pretty progressive socially - both for the circumstances in Eastern Europe that CDPR is writing in and the actual "medieval" setting they're trying to portray.