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[In Exile]

He also neglects to mention that the Baron was in a mutually abusive relationship. Anna abused him as well, though in different ways. Nor did he mention that the first time the Baron struck her was when Anna tried to murder him with a knife. He's clearly only interested in telling half of the story. Not surprised though, Grayson and Kotaku are a joke.

You're not interesting in telling the full story either, since before Anna "attacked" the Baron, he hunted her down and immediately slaughtered her lover in cold blood in front of her. It's also telling that you don't mention the timeline: she cheating on him while he was away - and treated him well so he had no idea she was cheating - until one day she left a letter telling him she was leaving him.

He the hunts her down, kills her lover, beats her, drags her back.

There's no mutual victimisation here at the start. Over time she ostensibly is mean to him, but that doesn't redeem the horrid piece of **** that is the Baron. That just shows what a dark and broken character Anna - who was selfish to begin with, given the cheating - became. We also have the daughter's testimony on how serious and frequent the beatings were, which cemented what that dynamic was like.

As I said: the scene with the Baron is so so very brilliant because of how much it just leads to people projecting all of their beliefs (and I include myself in this category - it's not like I'm some neutral observer).

Still, don't take potshots about accuracy if you're going to fudge the timeline.

[Linkenski]

I thought Cassandra was well written. She did seem like a hardass kind of woman at first but it turned out she was kind of fragile in a sense, with her idealism and doubts. I felt she was a well written female character without the "look at me, strong independant, SJW" like some other recent video game female characters.

I did not care for Morrigan in DAI though. To me her "character development" is a total cop out because we did not see her journey to undergo this change. She just cares more for her loved ones now because... timeskip where anything could happen. Hey I get it, it's at least believable, but meh.

Witcher 3 has strong women too, especially Ciri, Yennefer, Keita, and Cerys. I love Triss, but to me she's too damsel in distress-y to fit the "Strong Female Character™" label everybody keeps throwing around because it's the norm (aka it's popular and you'll feel gratified for being part of it)

[Mihura]

You're not interesting in telling the full story either, since before Anna "attacked" the Baron, he hunted her down and immediately slaughtered her lover in cold blood in front of her. It's also telling that you don't mention the timeline: she cheating on him while he was away - and treated him well so he had no idea she was cheating - until one day she left a letter telling him she was leaving him.

He the hunts her down, kills her lover, beats her, drags her back.

There's no mutual victimisation here at the start. Over time she ostensibly is mean to him, but that doesn't redeem the horrid piece of **** that is the Baron. That just shows what a dark and broken character Anna - who was selfish to begin with, given the cheating - became. We also have the daughter's testimony on how serious and frequent the beatings were, which cemented what that dynamic was like.

As I said: the scene with the Baron is so so very brilliant because of how much it just leads to people projecting all of their beliefs (and I include myself in this category - it's not like I'm some neutral observer).

Still, don't take potshots about accuracy if you're going to fudge the timeline.

 

Could not agree more, people seem to put the Baron in a gray moral area that does not exists. Anna was indeed cheating but she did the right thing and left him, let us not forget that he feed his dogs or something with Anna supposedly lover. He is also responsible for his unborn child death and the game makes sure that you know this. There is also hints that he raped Anna since she hates having his child. 

The Baron is a huge piece of trash and a abusive, violent man, there is no black and white here. It is more people inability to empathize with the daughter and wife and liking the dude that make the general population uncomfortable. 

[KaiserShep]

Oh, you know what else CDPR > Bioware at? Writing strong women. When BW tries for a "strong woman", they write a (female mabari). Like Vivienne or Sera. Pretty common mistake really. TW3 has plenty of women that are strong and independent while not being self-centered, self-righteous scumbags. Cerys is probably the best example. Cerys is incredible. Ciri is also great. She's almost as good in battle as Geralt and yet is a good, sociable person. Of course, there's always Triss. All the mages of Novigrad looked to her as a leader for a reason.

But TW doesn't jump up and down screaming "LOOK AT ME, STRONG WOMEN, EQUALITY AND FEMINISM!" so it's rarely acknowledged that they do equality better than the SJW types. 

 

 

PS from user Rifneno

http://forum.bioware...than-tw3/page-5

 

This post is entirely confused on what defines a strong character, because a strongly-written female character isn't necessarily one that can face lots of opposition and come out on top, and necessarily have a lot of character traits that one might consider likable. 

 

A character can be strongly-written, and still be vulnerable, have shaky beliefs, have little capacity to actually fight armed assailants and have certain unlikeable traits like close-mindedness, selfishness, cowardice and the like. I would argue that Fuu, the female protagonist of Samurai Champloo, is a strong character, because she's believable in the Edo Era-like setting, and despite all the crap she goes through, continues to persevere.

 

In a subsequent comment, this user says, regarding Wynne: 

 

 

 

Not in the least, no. No one who falls for the Chantry's indoctrination that hard is a strong person.

 

That's not the least bit compelling, because that's like saying that a female character in a story is weak because she's a Catholic or is at least lawful good. 

 

On the subject of Ciri, the irony here is that from what I'm gathering, she's measuring up to a bit of a Mary-Sue, but I'll reserve judgment on that for later. 

[SnakeCode]

You're not interesting in telling the full story either, since before Anna "attacked" the Baron, he hunted her down and immediately slaughtered her lover in cold blood in front of her. It's also telling that you don't mention the timeline: she cheating on him while he was away - and treated him well so he had no idea she was cheating - until one day she left a letter telling him she was leaving him.

He the hunts her down, kills her lover, beats her, drags her back.

There's no mutual victimisation here at the start. Over time she ostensibly is mean to him, but that doesn't redeem the horrid piece of **** that is the Baron. That just shows what a dark and broken character Anna - who was selfish to begin with, given the cheating - became. We also have the daughter's testimony on how serious and frequent the beatings were, which cemented what that dynamic was like.

As I said: the scene with the Baron is so so very brilliant because of how much it just leads to people projecting all of their beliefs (and I include myself in this category - it's not like I'm some neutral observer).

Still, don't take potshots about accuracy if you're going to fudge the timeline.

 

The Baron's attack on Anna's lover is in the article, but you know that. Stop being disingenuous.

[Legion of 1337]

I don't think Nathan Grayson will be satisfied until the actual plot of a, RPG is about overtly confronting sexism (which wouldn't happen most fantasy universes). This isn't 'deep', Grayson just has personal beliefs he'd like his games to showcase by having a plot focused on them.

 

I'm not sure if he understands a game like The Witcher isn't really the place for such things. Or maybe he doesn't care, he just wants one to exist. That's fine, but I don't think The Witcher is the kind of game that should do so.

 

He should ask Bioware, I'm sure they'll oblige.

[In Exile]

The Baron's attack on Anna's lover is in the article, but you know that. Stop being disingenuous.

 

I wasn't talking about the article, which, as you'll recall, I described as "entirely incorrect". I was talking about your post, which was disingenuous. Let me quote it again for you:

 

"He also neglects to mention that the Baron was in a mutually abusive relationship. Anna abused him as well, though in different ways. Nor did he mention that the first time the Baron struck her was when Anna tried to murder him with a knife."

 

This is nothing more than an obsfucatory attempt to portray the Baron as somehow having motivation - or justification - for his behaviour. Ignoring how morally repugnant the idea is that somehow abuse is less bad if someone responds in kind - which is just nonsense - it's worded in a way that seems to excuse the first instance of violence. 

 

What you say is that it was a "mutually abusive relationship" ... except for the fact that it wasn't, when the Baron burst through the door to murder her lover and drag Anna back. And when you suggest that he she tried to "murder" him, well, attacking the lunatic who broke down you door and killed your lover in cold blood in front of you is a lot of things, but it's certainly not attempted murder. 

 

If you want to argue that Anna was also an abusive person, it's hard to see how that argument can succeed. We don't have any evidence of her treatment of the Baron beyond what the Baron says about her. 

 

She's a bad person, sure. She cheated on her husband, who was apparently just a drunk (but non-violent, at least according to his side; we never hear Anna's side). She effectively conspired with eldritch abominations to abort her child. Not a great person. 

 

But none of that makes the Baron a compassionate, misunderstood figure. 

[KaiserShep]

Anna should've just poisoned his meal. Can't fight your enemy when it's in your bloodstream, beyatch. 

[SnakeCode]

I wasn't talking about the article, which, as you'll recall, I described as "entirely incorrect". I was talking about your post, which was disingenuous. Let me quote it again for you:

 

"He also neglects to mention that the Baron was in a mutually abusive relationship. Anna abused him as well, though in different ways. Nor did he mention that the first time the Baron struck her was when Anna tried to murder him with a knife."

 

This is nothing more than an obsfucatory attempt to portray the Baron as somehow having motivation - or justification - for his behaviour. Ignoring how morally repugnant the idea is that somehow abuse is less bad if someone responds in kind - which is just nonsense - it's worded in a way that seems to excuse the first instance of violence. 

 

What you say is that it was a "mutually abusive relationship" ... except for the fact that it wasn't, when the Baron burst through the door to murder her lover and drag Anna back. And when you suggest that he she tried to "murder" him, well, attacking the lunatic who broke down you door and killed your lover in cold blood in front of you is a lot of things, but it's certainly not attempted murder. 

 

If you want to argue that Anna was also an abusive person, it's hard to see how that argument can succeed. We don't have any evidence of her treatment of the Baron beyond what the Baron says about her. 

 

She's a bad person, sure. She cheated on her husband, who was apparently just a drunk (but non-violent, at least according to his side; we never hear Anna's side). She effectively conspired with eldritch abominations to abort her child. Not a great person. 

 

But none of that makes the Baron a compassionate, misunderstood figure. 

 

Nice strawman, I never said that the Baron was compassionate, nor misunderstood. Keep being disingenuous, it's really working for you. Unlike you, you'll recall that I was talking about the article. Mentioning things that Grayson (I assume) deliberately left out in order to tell the story that he wanted. There was no point in me bringing up things that he did put in the article. I was merely mentioning the things he chose not to. Also lol at Anna not being abusive because we only have the Baron's word for it. Sound logic.

 

My post wasn't designed to raise sympathy for the Baron nor justification for his actions. Stop putting words into my mouth and stop putting motivations into my posts that aren't there, it's extremely obnoxious.

[Dai Grepher]

Kotaku stinks. They didn't bother to read much in the game. Even this game states that different nations in Thedas have different views and customs regarding homosexuality, and most countries have opposing views of it. Thus far, no country accepts transgenderism, despite what Hissrad claims, and I'm pretty sure most people in Thedas would mistake a transgender for a desire demon possessed abomination. I think Dragon Age needs to stick to realism over baseless placation.

[In Exile]

Nice strawman, I never said that the Baron was compassionate, nor misunderstood. Keep being disingenuous, it's really working for you. Unlike you, you'll recall that I was talking about the article. Mentioning things that Grayson (I assume) deliberately left out in order to tell the story that he wanted. There was no point in me bringing up things that he did put in the article. I was merely mentioning the things he chose not to. Also lol at Anna not being abusive because we only have the Baron's word for it. Sound logic.

My post wasn't designed to raise sympathy for the Baron nor justification for his actions. Stop putting words into my mouth and stop putting motivations into my posts that aren't there, it's extremely obnoxious.

The implied assertion is there for all to see. I put no words in your mouth. You said the relationship was "mutually abusive". That's an accusation that Anna is an abuser. You said that the article "left out" the "attempted murder". To say that you're not suggesting that this is a case where the Baron is unduly maligned is ridiculous. The intent of the post you made is clear.

More to the point, just what is that story Nathan "wanted" to tell, and how is the "true" story different? Again, the implications in your post are clear. I don't see why you'd want to hide them.

[SnakeCode]

The implied assertion is there for all to see. I put no words in your mouth. You said the relationship was "mutually abusive". That's an accusation that Anna is an abuser. You said that the article "left out" the "attempted murder". To say that you're not suggesting that this is a case where the Baron is unduly maligned is ridiculous. The intent of the post you made is clear.

More to the point, just what is that story Nathan "wanted" to tell, and how is the "true" story different? Again, the implications in your post are clear. I don't see why you'd want to hide them.

 

You see this is why I generally ignore you. You put words into people's mouths and attack what you want people to be saying. Yes the relationship was mutually abusive, the game outright tells you this, but you've already stated it's not good enough since it comes from the Baron's mouth.

 

As for Grayson's intentions, i'm not going to get into this with you on the matter, I well know your views on that kind of thing and we've derailed this thread enough as is. Which is why i'm dropping this here as well, i've no desire to explain myself to someone who will continue to make disingenuous claims and twist people's arguments using strawmen and a dose of pseudo psychology. If you do so again i'll put you on ignore, because I frankly can't be bothered with it anymore. 

[In Exile]

You see this is why I generally ignore you. You put words into people's mouths and attack what you want people to be saying. Yes the relationship was mutually abusive, the game outright tells you this, but you've already stated it's not good enough since it comes from the Baron's mouth.

 

As for Grayson's intentions, i'm not going to get into this with you on the matter, I well know your views on that kind of thing and we've derailed this thread enough as is. Which is why i'm dropping this here as well, i've no desire to explain myself to someone who will continue to make disingenuous claims and twist people's arguments using strawmen and a dose of pseudo psychology. If you do so again i'll put you on ignore, because I frankly can't be bothered with it anymore. 

 

For the record, "one character said" isn't "the game outright tells you this", particularly when dealing with an unreliable narrator. I will only post one thing in reply, and will ignore the repeated insults you've thrown in my direction. This the definition of "implication":

im·pli·ca·tion

ˌimpləˈkāSH(ə)n/

noun

1.  

   the conclusion that can be drawn from something, although it is not explicitly stated.

   "the implication is that no one person at the bank is responsible"

   synonyms: suggestion, insinuation, innuendo, hint, intimation, imputation

   "he was smarting at their implication"

[Joseph Warrick]

So you can have a bunch of black people in your game picking cotton for a white guy. Turns out they've been conspiring against him and they try to get free and here are several outcomes. Or you can have black people just walking around.

If the topic you want to address is discrimination against black people, then I think the second approach makes the first one unnecessary. It goes implicitly. It also leaves room to address other less obvious topics.

Ever noticed how noone complains that the pope in dragon age is female? This is Bioware commenting on the sex segregation of organized religion. They didn't need to explicitly write lore and a quest about female struggle to be recognized etc etc. It's lean and elegant. A fine example of show don't tell. Not a word is needed. You're seeing it.

[zestalyn]

I appreciate Bioware's take more. Playing Witcher to me is mostly frustrating on how it deals with women. I'm much happea with story where women are as good as men and can be heroes too than having to deals with IRL sexism on a game too. Though from ME from Bioware has it too and I'd prefered none.

 

I personally feel this way too... Yes, the Witcher series has strong female characters, but the way their world has your archetypal sexist attitude that has been portrayed countless times over and over again in what feels like every single piece of fiction that takes place in something not futuristic, really drives me up the wall.

I just can't catch a break, I face sexism in real life all the freakin' time, mostly in the form of sexual harassment, which happens almost every day since I exercise outside, and my outside is unfortunately an urban working class neighborhood with dudes who clearly grew up with a machismo upbringing..

On one hand, I try not to look down on the Witcher, or other games/films/tv shows, for showing these things because I get it, yes they're trying to establish "realism" in their gritty world or what have you. Fortunately, many times they have their leading women contradict those terrible attitudes, and when they do it responsibly, perhaps it can show men why sexism sucks and encourage them to not be part of the problem and fight the norm.

But on the other hand, it is so tiring to see that I can't even escape sexism from my entertainment, which is constantly reinforcing the fact that "YES, this is the norm. Sucks for you!!!". Even when the girl kicks butt, it is only somewhat liberating. Because I'm reminded in the back of my head that for every one arse-kicking independent woman we see in the spotlight there are 100 dudes who would be happy to reduce her value to the size of her rump and the features on her pretty face, and maybe even punch her in the face for no reason (yes I've seen guys react this way)

But like you said, I am more appreciative of how Bioware deals with the social norms of women within their fantasy worlds, by quietly reconstructing the norm with what one article calls "the remarkable ordinary"
 

It's not a big deal. Nobody takes a moment to comment on how the leaders of the Inquisition are primarily female. Cullen, in charge of of the soldiers, doesn't offer a monologue on what it's like to take orders from so many lovely ladies. It's just how it is.

If the situation were reversed, and it was four men and one woman, nobody would blink, because that's considered normal. By doing something equally unremarkable, BioWare has constructed a situation that's both progressive and disruptive.

For me, though, this is exactly the way I like to see diversity addressed in games: without a lot of shouting or preaching, without grandstanding or drama.

A scene like that one around the war table, with four out of five characters being women, but that not being important, is practically mythical, that's how rare it is.

 

I remember in my first playthrough of DA:I, I was spam taking pictures of the first time the four women were chatting at the Haven war table with my iphone because I wanted to text my bff who was also playing the game, "do you see what I see??? This is CRAZY but so cool!!!"

And every time I see Leli, Josie, Morrigan, and my femIQ convene at the war table at Skyhold, there is a small part of my chest swelling with pride   I can't get over it, it's just so inspiring to see how something that is sadly so "unrealistic" in my world has achieved normalcy in Thedas, because for whatever beautiful reason Thedosians never saw the need to have one half of the population, especially the half that's responsible for producing life and freakin' repopulating the planet, have less freedoms, less respect, or less say in the household or government just 'cause of her gender.

[Dai Grepher]

Ever noticed how noone complains that the pope in dragon age is female? This is Bioware commenting on the sex segregation of organized religion. They didn't need to explicitly write lore and a quest about female struggle to be recognized etc etc. It's lean and elegant. A fine example of show don't tell. Not a word is needed. You're seeing it.

Actually that is explained as following Andraste's example, who was female. The Chantry also considers the Black Chantry to be heretical because it has a male Divine.

 

You can also ask Cassandra why you can't be Divine, and if you're male she will point that out about you.

[Seraphim24]

But like you said, I am more appreciative of how Bioware deals with the social norms of women within their fantasy worlds, by quietly reconstructing the norm with what one article calls "the remarkable ordinary"
 

 

Actually there are a number of times in Dragon Age for example where characters go with things like "I'm a woman, and I'm the strongest one here," and stuff like that.

 

There are a fairly large number of games where women are in positions of power etc and it's not really seen as a big deal.

 

Honestly even earlier Bioware games (just not Dragon Age) were better at this kind of thing.

[The Elder King]

Actually there are a number of times in Dragon Age for example where characters go with things like "I'm a woman, and I'm the strongest one here," and stuff like that.
 
There are a fairly large number of games where women are in positions of power etc and it's not really seen as a big deal.
 
Honestly even earlier Bioware games (just not Dragon Age) were better at this kind of thing.

In which Bioware game a woman acted like that? The only one Who say something similar is Miranda, and it's about her particular origin.

[In Exile]

In which Bioware game a woman acted like that? The only one Who say something similar is Miranda, and it's about her particular origin.

 

I don't think that's Miranda's vibe. She's just got the usual issues we see in a high-achieving perfectionist. 

[Seraphim24]

In which Bioware game a woman acted like that? The only one Who say something similar is Miranda, and it's about her particular origin.

 

Dragon Age Origins, like I said, there are a handful of points by the time you get to the 1/3 mark with dialogue along the lines of like I said "I'm a woman, and I'm the most courageous one here," etc. I'm pretty sure there was on Ostagar somewhere, and then it pops up again in camp or something somewhere.

 

There is also just literally the entire character of Sten and pretty much everything he says regarding the way the Qun deals with women if you have a female PC.

 

It's probably in ME somewhere but I haven't re-played that series in forever, anyway, my point is simply it is not treated with absolute normality.

[Arisugawa]

^
Ninja'd by Kefka.

[Joseph Warrick]

Actually that is explained as following Andraste's example, who was female. The Chantry also considers the Black Chantry to be heretical because it has a male Divine.

 

You can also ask Cassandra why you can't be Divine, and if you're male she will point that out about you.

 

Hello? That's the point.

[The Elder King]

Dragon Age Origins, like I said, there are a handful of points by the time you get to the 1/3 mark with dialogue along the lines of like I said "I'm a woman, and I'm the most courageous one here," etc. I'm pretty sure there was on Ostagar somewhere, and then it pops up again in camp or something somewhere.
 
There is also just literally the entire character of Sten and pretty much everything he says regarding the way the Qun deals with women if you have a female PC.
 
It's probably in ME somewhere but I haven't re-played that series in forever, anyway, my point is simply it is not treated with absolute normality.

If it's Ostagar, it's a specific of the Warden in response of his companions acting (in the opinion of the Warden) as cowards, and in the end Both Jory and Daveth shown in different moment to be. I thought you were referring to a specific character Who believe That.

Sten's dialogue was more about going against his beliefs, and I think you say something like 'I'm a woman, and I fight', Not being the strongest.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

It's probably in ME somewhere but I haven't re-played that series in forever, anyway, my point is simply it is not treated with absolute normality.

There isn't any dialogue, or barely any, like that in Mass Effect. The only one I can think of that comes close is when Bakara comments on Shepard being a leader and a woman, but that makes sense since for over a millennium the Krogan were led by men so she is intrigued that humans treat genders with equal respect. 

[BabyPuncher]

No, no, we are on the same page. That's a wonderfully disgusting thing to say again, right there. Braveness, loyalty and leadership skills being inherently masculine traits - I'm just using the very things you listed. Please correct me making a potentially horrible mistake, if by that you would say a woman who is brave, is more masculine because of this; as opposed to a very timid one being more female because of her cowardice? A disloyal woman is more feminine than a loyal one - which she logically must be if loyalty is a masculine trait?

Mmm.

Well, one thing to keep in mind is that masculine qualities don't degrade a woman's femininity. She can dress in a masculine fashion, speak in a masculine fashion, partake in masculine activities and so forth and it does nothing to keep her from being fully feminine and fully enjoying the appeals and benefits of such.

The converse is obviously very different.