561 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

There isn't any dialogue, or barely any, like that in Mass Effect. The only one I can think of that comes close is when Bakara comments on Shepard being a leader and a woman, but that makes sense since for over a millennium the Krogan were led by men so she is intrigued that humans treat genders with equal respect. 

 

Well, there sort of an example with Harkin in ME1 since he makes skeevy remarks to a female Shepard, and there's the Blue Suns recruiter on Omega that tells her "Well, aren't you sweet? You're in the wrong place, honey. Stripper's corner is that way."

[zestalyn]

It's probably in ME somewhere but I haven't re-played that series in forever, anyway, my point is simply it is not treated with absolute normality.

Sure, not absolute, but way more than other fictional settings. Like the Witcher, hence my opinion.

 

There are a fairly large number of games where women are in positions of power etc and it's not really seen as a big deal.

What makes DA:I's power balance a "remarkable ordinary" is the casual outnumbering of men by women in positions of power

Of course there are a billion places, real life and fiction where a woman is in power and people don't question her, but that woman is usually outnumbered by 10 men.

I'm not a gamer expert, so maybe I'm ignorant of other games where there is a society that just so happens to have more women in political/military power than men, as seen in DA:I, as merely a normal matter of circumstance (rather than some bizarre exotic amazonian flair per say) I am curious to know what these are, especially if it is a mainstream triple A title like DA:I

[Seraphim24]

There isn't any dialogue, or barely any, like that in Mass Effect. The only one I can think of that comes close is when Bakara comments on Shepard being a leader and a woman, but that makes sense since for over a millennium the Krogan were led by men so she is intrigued that humans treat genders with equal respect. 

 

Well there wasn't really any Baldur's Gate either if I remember correctly, or possibly even NWN. DA is the odd one out, to be honest. They've been going the wrong direction.

 

Sure, not absolute, but way more than other fictional settings.

 

What makes DA:I's power balance a "remarkable ordinary" is the casual outnumbering of men by women in positions of power

Of course there are a billion places, real life and fiction where a woman is in power and people don't question her, but that woman is usually outnumbered by 10 men.

I'm not a gamer expert, so maybe I'm ignorant of other games where there is a society that just so happens to have more women in political/military power than men, as seen in DA:I, as merely a normal matter of circumstance (rather than some bizarre exotic amazonian flair per say) I am curious to know what these are, especially if it is a mainstream triple A title like DA:I

 

Something like Valkyrie Profile 1 for example most (or at least half) of the major/important characters are female, all the goddesses of death and rebirth (Lenneth, Silmeria, Hrist, Freya, Frei) as well as at least half the central mortal characters like Mystina, Jelanda, etc. Of course All-Father Odin and for example Brahms are Male but probably so is the Maker and other high figures in DA. Most of the male characters are actually consumed by arrogance and are ultimately destroyed (Lezard, the King of Dipan, Loki).

 

Mainstream AAA titles? Well there are only a handful of those, period, so you don't get much diversity one way or another. MGS has traditionally had fairly pre-eminent female characters though (Big Boss, etc) Also, FFXIV all 3 heads of the primary city-states are female, although in one instance it is more of a case of a regency. In addition, the empire of Garlea has prominent female generals (although the head is actually male). Moreover, the Scions of the 7th Dawn are lead by a female (Minfilia) with at least equal number of females as males in the Scions themselves (Y'shtola, Yda, Alisae, vs Papalymo, Thancred, and Alphinaud)

 

Gaming history in general (non-AAA, etc) is rife with them though pretty much any number of these to be honest. In fact, many times you can find the antecedent to a AAA franchise in a game that is ambitious with this kind of thing (FF).

 

 

I can't say in terms of "society has X times the number of females vs males" in every instance, but as for that goes..

 

I don't want to re-kindle this discussion per se but saying that men outnumber women in positions of power in the context of DA:I is a bit ironic considering the most central characters (the companions themselves) men outnumber women 6 to 3. In terms of central fighting figures, men beat women.

 

In terms of advisory non-combat roles, women outnumber men 2:1 (Josephine and Leliana, vs Cullen). It looks like women are still in the kitchen a bit, to be brutally frank.

 

How we define men and women in "positions of power" seems to be important to consider in relationship to the plot generally.

 

All that said if you just want to compare DA to something like Assassin's Creed Syndicate or The Division, I guess sure you are going to have more prominent females, sure.

 

Not denying that you have had a positive experience with DA or that you shouldn't continue to feel that way, it's just in all seriousness I don't really see it as an outlier shining beacon example, not the lowest either.

[leaguer of one]

Oh, you know what else CDPR > Bioware at? Writing strong women. When BW tries for a "strong woman", they write a (female mabari). Like Vivienne or Sera. Pretty common mistake really. TW3 has plenty of women that are strong and independent while not being self-centered, self-righteous scumbags. Cerys is probably the best example. Cerys is incredible. Ciri is also great. She's almost as good in battle as Geralt and yet is a good, sociable person. Of course, there's always Triss. All the mages of Novigrad looked to her as a leader for a reason.

But TW doesn't jump up and down screaming "LOOK AT ME, STRONG WOMEN, EQUALITY AND FEMINISM!" so it's rarely acknowledged that they do equality better than the SJW types. 

 

 

PS from user Rifneno

http://forum.bioware...than-tw3/page-5

Bias much. bw does not even start to shove anything about feminism. They don't force it , so what are you on about?

 

Also, Ciri is way better then  Geralt in combat.

[leaguer of one]

You're not interesting in telling the full story either, since before Anna "attacked" the Baron, he hunted her down and immediately slaughtered her lover in cold blood in front of her. It's also telling that you don't mention the timeline: she cheating on him while he was away - and treated him well so he had no idea she was cheating - until one day she left a letter telling him she was leaving him.

He the hunts her down, kills her lover, beats her, drags her back.

There's no mutual victimisation here at the start. Over time she ostensibly is mean to him, but that doesn't redeem the horrid piece of **** that is the Baron. That just shows what a dark and broken character Anna - who was selfish to begin with, given the cheating - became. We also have the daughter's testimony on how serious and frequent the beatings were, which cemented what that dynamic was like.

As I said: the scene with the Baron is so so very brilliant because of how much it just leads to people projecting all of their beliefs (and I include myself in this category - it's not like I'm some neutral observer).

Still, don't take potshots about accuracy if you're going to fudge the timeline.

Wait a sec. She was literaly cheating on him and instead of going after her, he went after  the lover. Him going after the lover does not make him the bad guy.

[In Exile]

Wait a sec. She was literaly cheating on him and instead of going after her, he went after  the lover. Him going after the lover does not make him the bad guy.

 

In the sane world (I hope) we all live in, "She cheated on me" doesn't naturally lead to "Hunt down her and her lover, execute him in front of her, and drag her back." Because, you know, that's insane and evil. 

[KaiserShep]

Wait a sec. She was literaly cheating on him and instead of going after her, he went after  the lover. Him going after the lover does not make him the bad guy.

 

Putting aside for a moment that murdering someone - anyone - for a case of infidelity is never the right thing to do, the small morsel of irony here is that the guy would more likely be the innocent party, provided the wife didn't tell her new lover about her husband. 

[leaguer of one]

In the sane world I hope (we all) live in, "She cheated on me" doesn't naturally lead to "Hunt down her and her lover, execute him in front of her, and drag her back." Because, you know, that's insane and evil. 

 

 

Putting aside for a moment that murdering someone - anyone - for a case of infidelity is never the right thing to do, the small morsel of irony here is that the guy would more likely be the innocent party, provided the wife didn't tell her new lover about her husband. 

I'm not say hunting the guy down was the right thing to do. My point is that the first thing the guy did was not abuse. Both sides were crap to each other and both sides equal reacted in uncalled for ways.

Both sides are still at fault.

[Jaison1986]

In the sane world I hope (we all) live in, "She cheated on me" doesn't naturally lead to "Hunt down her and her lover, execute him in front of her, and drag her back." Because, you know, that's insane and evil. 

 

Eh, in my country this kind of stuff happens on a daily basis. Sure, it's a crime here, but still, it happens all the time.

 

Anyway, just because the Baron resorted to murder, I don't we should just handwave the mistakes of the other party. Not like the guy he killed was the shining beacon of moral goodness.

[leaguer of one]

I did not care for Morrigan in DAI though. To me her "character development" is a total cop out because we did not see her journey to undergo this change. She just cares more for her loved ones now because... timeskip where anything could happen. Hey I get it, it's at least believable, but meh.

 

For that last time....YOU DON"T NEED TO SEE THE JOURNEY TO THE CHANGE!!!!!!

[In Exile]

I'm not say hunting the guy down was the right thing to do. My point is that the first thing the guy did was not abuse. Both sides were crap to each other and both sides equal reacted in uncalled for ways.

Both sides are still at fault.

 

Abso-******-lutely not. Anna was a pretty selfish person. She cheated on him. He is an unstable murderer, because he hunted her down, killed her love, and kidnapped her. 

 

There's no "equal" here. There's no sane world in which this is even within the same hemisphere. 

 

Eh, in my country this kind of stuff happens on a daily basis. Sure, it's a crime here, but still, it happens all the time.

 

Anyway, just because the Baron resorted to murder, I don't we should just handwave the mistakes of the other party. Not like the guy he killed was the shining beacon of moral goodness.

 

What mistakes? The guy he killed was - at worst - someone who slept with someone's wife. This guy is a murderer who - and I'll say this again for effect - hunted down his wife, killed her lover and kidnapped her. 

[leaguer of one]

Abso-******-lutely not. Anna was a pretty selfish person. She cheated on him. He is an unstable murderer, because he hunted her down, killed her love, and kidnapped her. 

 

There's no "equal" here. There's no sane world in which this is even within the same hemisphere. 

 

 

What mistakes? The guy he killed was - at worst - someone who slept with someone's wife. This guy is a murderer who - and I'll say this again for effect - hunted down his wife, killed her lover and kidnapped her. 

Bs. Totally,bs. This is a woman who tried to reap from the gains of her husband while betraying his trust. This woman clearly wanted to move on but stayed with the guy for the benefits and wealth. Which is a crap thing to do. The guy was away at war for year and she could of left at anytime with her lover to the point he would not find her....Yet she stayed. Sorry, but that's a pretty shitty thing to do.

 

That equally as crappy in my book.

[Mikka-chan]

I've always thought it weird- in real life and in fiction- when people blame the interloper in the relationship rather then the person actually cheating on them.  It's a common trope, and I even ran in to it in real life.  I was in the unfortunate position of having to tell a friend that her husband (who she was trying to have a child with) was cheating on her steadily (and threatened me when I told him to come clean on it, or I would).  Alls well that ends well: she's now with a much better guy and with two children who have grown up in a happy home, both of us got restraining orders, it didn't kill our friendship, and as far as I know the jackass is basically throwing himself on female to female as they all realize he's an ass and leave him... but her first reaction was basically "The other woman is a horrible person and needs to die I hate her hate her hate her" rather then "Wow, my husband is cheating on me, he sort of sucks".

 

I suppose it's because we're most invested in the person we're, you know, with- but in a lot of cases like that, the person 'cheating' with the partner has no idea the partner is married or otherwise involved- because if they're the sort of person to lie and cheat, they're probably not the sort of person who goes "Hey, I have a wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/significant other/whateves you want to call it".  No, it's always blaming the 'other' who must have seduced one's poor innocent (whateves).

 

(That being said, the Baron was a jackass.  Anna was not the best person, morally, but the Baron did monsterous things: killing her lover, beating her, possibly raping her... ugh, ugh, ugh.  Does he deserve a chance to repent?  Maybe, but I certainly don't disapprove of Anna and her daughter wanting nothing to do with it.)

 

Getting to the actual point of this thread, some of the conversation, in my opinion, is ridiculous.  Someone can be a strong person because they're empathetic and caring- be they female or male.  Someone can be a strong person because they're devoted and have leadership qualities- be they female or male (or, gender neutral, or whatever they define themselves as).  In general, for their companions, Bioware isn't really in the habit of writing 'weak' characters.  Alistair is in someways a generic nice guy who gets insulted by everyone and basically follows the Warden by the tail- but holds strongly to his beliefs, is willing to sacrifice himself but yet not others, will avenge the people he loved if given the chance without your input, is willing to give up his love for his duty, and generally believes is goodness and is willing to work for that.  Boy has a lot of faults and stupidity, but I think those are 'strong' points.  Going back even further, Aerie is whiny, occasionally wishy-washy while othertimes spiteful, clingy, and childish.  Yet she survived a life in slavery never blaming others (including the child she sacrificed herself for), is willing to give up someone she loves if she doesn't believe her goals align with his (Haer'Dalis and CHARNAME), will learn to stand up for herself proudly (in conversations with Krogan, and in a way, in the EE, with Hexxat when she's unwilling to let the vampire feed on innocents anymore), is patient and kind with the mentally disturbed (er... Minsc), and in the quest that was deleted for time, would in the end decline the chance to live a life free of all her troubles and hurts in order to fight wrongs and live with the hardship but joy that is her life.

 

In paticular, Aerie is often brought up as Bioware's Worst NPC EVEH (unless we're talking about Anomen, who may beat her- but who also has his good points, though many bad points).  And, if you want the truth, Aerie *is* annoying (again, in my opinion).  But I don't think that makes her weak.  She's pretty strong, actually.  (And, notably, given enough investments, can easily become one of the most OP party members of BG2.)

 

Saying someone is weak because they're old, believe in religion, dress skimpy, dress too modestly, are too feminine, are too masculine, are bitchy/whiny/irriating/whatever thing you despise- that's laughable.  Strength is something in your core.  That's it.

 

iDid the Witcher 3 have strong females?  Sure.  It also had weak ones, but the strong ones were the ones features: Triss, Cyri, Yen being the obvious.  But I think Cass, Viv, Lil, and Josie are strong as well (Sera, one could make arguements about her, I think- I don't think really she's the strongest character, though she is an interesting one as well).  I don't really like the way the Witcher games tend to make all females but Ciri (who just overwhelms with badass) rely on a lot more manipulation/desperation appeals, but... I'm not exactly the target audiance for the Witcher.  (AKA, I'm one of those who finds Geralt ugly and unappealing.)  I'm not going to take that as a slight against the Witcher, just a note about me and being tired that sometimes that seems to be the only way to get ahead in the unfortunately sexist Real Life I'm stuck in.

 

...I think the Witcher 3, as a game, is a better game then DA:I.  But I, personally, enjoyed DA:I more.

[In Exile]

Bs. Totally,bs. This is a woman who tried to reap from the gains of her husband while betraying his trust. This woman clearly wanted to move on but stayed with the guy for the benefits and wealth. Which is a crap thing to do. The guy was away at war for year and she could of left at anytime with her lover to the point he would not find her....Yet she stayed. Sorry, but that's a pretty shitty thing to do.

 

That equally as crappy in my book.

 

I'm going to back away slowly from this now, because we're so far apart morally that there's never even going to be a shred of hope we could be on the same page. I'm going to say this again for effect:

 

1. Woman who cheats on her husband. Breaks up with him, via letter, and leaves with her lover.

2. Man who hunts his wife down, then murders her lover in cold blood, then kidnaps her back. 

3. Man who slept with unfaithful wife; was apparently in love with her. 

 

"2" is a psycho. 

 

Edit: Also, she did leave while he was away. That's why he came home to a letter, not her. 

[Seraphim24]

I'm going to back away slowly from this now, because we're so far apart morally that there's never even going to be a shred of hope we could be on the same page. I'm going to say this again for effect:

 

1. Woman who cheats on her husband. Breaks up with him, via letter, and leaves with her lover.

2. Man who hunts his wife down, then murders her lover in cold blood, then kidnaps her back. 

 

"2" is a psycho. 

 

Both are pretty psychotic really. Destroying someone's sense of emotional and spiritual commitment is supreme violence, just not of the physical kind.

[In Exile]

Both are pretty psychotic really. Destroying someone's sense of emotional and spiritual commitment is supreme violence, just not of the physical kind.

 

No, they aren't. Cheating is like lying, but worse. It's a breach of trust, and a fundamental betrayal. That's a pretty shitty thing to do. The other thing is absolutely psychotic and insane murder, because, again, he hunted down two human beings, murdered one in cold blood, then kidnapped the other one.

[KaiserShep]

Next time on Maury.

 

Furious woman: My husband shot my man between the eyes!

 

[audience groans]

 

Maury: Well we have George backstage! George come out here!

 

[George struts out on stage]

 

[audience boos]

 

George: Nah nah nah nah you don't know the whole story man [bleep] y'all you don't know!

[Seraphim24]

No, they aren't. Cheating is like lying, but worse. It's a breach of trust, and a fundamental betrayal. That's a pretty shitty thing to do. The other thing is absolutely psychotic and insane murder, because, again, he hunted down two human beings, murdered one in cold blood, then kidnapped the other one.

 

Right, it's like lying, but worse, and a fundamental betrayal, that doesn't sound so great right?

 

I'm not really interested in comparing the two directly but destroying someone's trust in a certain arrangement in that sense is a pretty cruel thing... there are definitely things that are like a ripple compared to murder (like I don't know... driving a bit too fast or something, being petty about this or that, something trifling)

 

Cheating (when both parties are invested in marriage and agreed on that etc) is not a ripple emotionally, that's a tidal wave, although what people choose to do with the consequences does vary wildly though of course.

[BabyPuncher]

Boy, nothing like the totally mature and completely realistic morality of audiences towards 'grey' stories. How inspiring to see these paragons of philosophy in action.

[KaiserShep]

Both are pretty psychotic really. Destroying someone's sense of emotional and spiritual commitment is supreme violence, just not of the physical kind.

 

Like, what? Sure, cheating is a dick move and all, but who frakkin' cares? Murder beats rock beats scissors beats paper beats most things. Jebus Jenkem-Huffing Cristos.

[Jaison1986]

I only wonder if people here would be so appaled if it was the other way around, and it was the Baron that cheated and it was Anna the one that killed his lover.

[In Exile]

I only wonder if people here would be so appaled if it was the other way around, and it was the Baron that cheated and it was Anna the one that killed his lover.

 

Absolutely. Because then she'd be a total psycho. Especially if she then kidnapped him. But even if she didn't. Because killing your partner's lover because they cheated on you is crazy. 

 

Edit: This isn't a gender thing. This is a it's completely batshit crazy to kill your partner's lover because they cheated on you. 

[Seraphim24]

Like, what? Sure, cheating is a dick move and all, but who frakkin' cares? Murder beats rock beats scissors beats paper beats most things. Jebus Jenkem-Huffing Cristos.

 

Fine, nothing compares to death, but cheating is not just a "dick move," translated from it's emotional to physical equivalent, it would be like stabbing someone in both legs and arms several times or something.

 

It's not like you spilled milk on their pants or something or made fun of their hat or whatever category it feels like you are trying to cram it into here.

 

Edit: This isn't a gender thing. This is a it's completely batshit crazy to kill your partner's lover because they cheated on you. 

 

It's completely batshit crazy to kill anyone, period.

[Jaison1986]

Absolutely. Because then she'd be a total psycho. Especially if she then kidnapped him. But even if she didn't. Because killing your partner's lover because they cheated on you is crazy. 

 

Edit: This isn't a gender thing. This is a it's completely batshit crazy to kill your partner's lover because they cheated on you. 

 

Oh, I get it, I thought it was about that, like just about any other topics in this forum these days.

 

Back to the topic, while I don't agree with the Baron dragging his wife back to their home against her will, can't say I blame him for wanting payback for being cheated. It's easy to judge when we never had that done to us.